(Two threads about the same thing have been combined and the title changed to make clearer. HJ)
Today's news suggests that to get in line with Europe we are going to tighten up the rules regarding children travelling in cars, and ther restraint.
Don't these bureacrats in Brussels have more to do, apart from eating their lavish expense account lunches, than to intefere in the right of British parents to have their children hurtle around in the car, or even through its windows, in the event of a sudden stop?
Not least of the problems is the cost of making your children secure , which could even be so much as to prevent a night out in the pub . And think of the fun children will be denied if they are to be stopped from taking their favourire position , standing just behind and between the front seats.
What I say is, if it had been necessary to restrain childrne in cars like this don't you think we would have done it before , without the need for laws about it?
|
My kids are always restrained but I remember the days when I was a child and there were 7 of us travelling in dad's Cortina Estate round the Continent.
Mum and Dad in front, 3 in back, and another 2 in the boot! You (thankfully) just wouldn't do that now - although, sadly, I too often see many examples of unrestrained kids in other cars.
|
>I remember the days when I was a child and there were 7 of us travelling in dad's Cortina Estate
Uncanny. As the second youngest of five kids I was one of the two relegated to the boot of my dad's Mk 1 Cortina estate. I can still feel the ridges of the bare metal floor and back of the rear seat.
Happy days.
|
|
We had a mini van for a while which 7 + 2 largish dogs travelled. Pa built a box over the battery and fixed the spare wheel on top. It had a fold up bench seat in the back for three, one sat on the space vacanted by the spare with cushion for comfort(!) then youngest child sat on adults knee in front and two dogs in the boot. Rapture when they bought an 1100 and we fought over who travelled in which car. The mini was later replaced with a mini traveller. Seems incredible now.
|
|
|
|
To the caring parents/grandparents the European legislation only confirms their investment in a safety seat/booster cushion. Anything from £20-£250 - surely any child is worth it
For the uncaring, who do not worry abouthow their children are looked after it might spur some to pay attention to securing a child in the car. If it saves 1 child from serious injury or worse then it is worth it.
However the "I do not wear a seat-belt, have a licence, MoT, Road Tax or insure my car it will not make a blind bit of difference"
|
I don?t really care if some waste of space doesn?t want to secure his rotten offspring properly. Although I wouldn?t really want some grisley toddler missile landing anywhere near me. I have to say though, I?ve never seen any evidence that the rest of Europe take better care to strap their kids in.
I?ve just upgraded my daughter?s seat. It?s almost like her head is clamped on either side now, remember how F1 cars changed after Senna was killed? The tubs rose up above the drivers? cheek bones. I strapped her in and I felt sorry for her, she can barely see out of the windows. She?s never awake more than ten minutes in the car though.
My favourite position was front passenger seat, chin on dash which I could maintain from Manchester to Devon.
|
I don?t really care if some waste of space doesn?t want to secure his rotten offspring properly. Although I wouldn?t really want some grisley toddler missile landing anywhere near me.
Sins of the fathers, BBD? Seems a bit harsh towards the offspring I must say.
Yr daughter may be agreeably somnolent now but at some point she will develop a great dislike of being restrained and will have no interest in the reasons for it. She may also develop a diabolical ingenuity in wriggling out of any harness when your attention is elsewhere. Later when you notice her blissfully asleep on the wrong side of the rear seat with a loop of belt round her neck you will be so furious that you will nearly crash.
|
I just heard on the radio that car seats are going to become mandatory for all children upto 11 years old following a EU law. Didn't catch all of it, so I'm not sure when it begins .... I'm all for safety but this does seem a bit OTT.
For example I have a 6 year old daughter who is just over 4ft tall. Though she weighs approximately the same as a "normal" 6 year old she quite a bit taller. I would imagine she'll be quite a bit taller when she's 11yrs and the thought of her having to sit on a booster seat doesn't impress me much (or her I would think!).
My wife's only 5'2" does that mean she'll have to sit on one too! Actually, having said that, it may not be a bad idea! ;-)
|
Isn't for children up to a height of 4' 5" and under the age of 12?
Is it for children in the back or front, or either?
|
All info in the telegraph:
tinyurl.com/q6o4k
But in summary, over 3's and under 4'5" will need to be in a booster seat in front or back (except in a taxi)
Applies to vehicles which do not have safetly belts at present (such as classic cars)
Can not have more than on person per seatbelt
Jono
|
|
Why are taxis excepted? The back of a London cab, nowadays a vehicle capable of 90mph, is arguably a place where restraint is particularly needed, as the unsecured passenger has a long way to travel before hitting a hard surface consisting partly of glass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
>>If it saves 1 child from serious injury or worse then it is worth it.
Now that is an interesting point.
Clearly to spoil 45 minutes of enjoyment for one child to save its life is worthwhile.
But is it still worthwhile if you spoil 45 hours of enjoyment for 45 million children ? 45,000 hours for 45 billion children ?
At what point does the loss of freedom or degradation of life quality become such that saving the life of one child is not important enough. I don't know what that point is, but it does exist and it should not be forgotten.
It is too simplistic to say that any level of expenditure, by any number of people, at any cost (monetary and non-monetary) is worthwhile.
Unless its one of my children of course..........
|
|
|
|
|
What happens if you are giving freinds a lift and there are children who under these proposed new rules would require a booster seat.As i do not have children, i would not posess a booster seat.Does that mean that the adults could have a lift but not the child?.In addition some children,like my godson will in adult life be over6ft4".I expect he will be taller than me(5ft 11") when he is 11,like his dad was.
|
>>I expect he will be taller than me(5ft 11") when he is 11, like his dad was.
5'11" at 11 years old! - remember to sign him up for the basketball team ;-)
|
Could get very interesting, my eldest was 5'6" at 11, youngest passed 4'5" at 9. So obviously they would have passed the height restrictions well before the age cut off and judging by the size of most children these days I think most would, heavens knows, we seem to have a land of giants in the making.
However, my mother is 4'4" and 75 years young, I can see a very entertaining conversation coming up if I try to convince her she should start sitting on a booster cushion so the belt fits her properly!!!!! It would certainly make logical sense but it is going to be an interesting half hour!
|
If this new law follows the line of other legislation in this area, then it will be the DRIVER who is responsible for ensuring that all children in their car comply with the law.
If the child's mother says 'Oh , that's all right, little Jacasta and Brooklyn don't need to wear their seatbelts/ use their booster seats, they are rather tired today' it is YOU THE DRIVER that takes the can and gets the points on their licence.
It could spoil a few relationships if you absolutely insist that your best friend's children belt up, when their mother says it doesn't matter.
|
|
Life was more enjoyable and easy-going in the days when children used to slide around in the back of estate cars, and only weirdos wore seatbelts. Is the price for state-enforced 'security' really worth paying?
|
|
Official version www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/docume...p
|
Official version www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/docume...p
>>
Now that's interesting.
It just opens a whole can of worms:-
There is no definition os "short" or "occaisonal" journeys.
Why exemption for taxis? What about private hire or mini-cabs? What about Executive car services or limo work?
|
|
|
Is it me or does the answer to Q16 contradict that given for question Q10?
Q10. What if I can't fit 3 child seats in the back of my car?
A. If a car has 3 seat belts in the rear, and 2 occupied child seats or boosters prevent the fitting of a third, a third child 3 years or over may then use an adult belt. If there is room, it would be safer for the third child to travel in the front seat and use the correct child seat or booster.
Q16. We have 4 children but only a medium size car. Do they all need to use child seats and boosters?
A. If they are under 135 cms then they will all need to use the right seat or booster for their size.
|
|
It would appear then that if you are stuck with having to transport a child but don't have the correct restraint but do have empty seats in the car then you will not be able to transport the child. But, if you call a cab and put the child in the back of the cab with an adult belt and instruct the driver to follow your car with three empty seats with adult belts to your destination then that will be legal! Duh!
|
|
|
Q10. What if I can't fit 3 child seats in the back of my car?
Cull one of the nippers. Q16. We have 4 children but only a medium size car. Do they all need to use child seats and boosters?
NO. But it is a legal requirement. Go on, risk it (at your own risk of course, or rather that of the hapless nippers).
|
|
|
|
|
|
..... it is YOU THE DRIVER that takes the can and gets the points on their licence.
>>
Isn't that as it should be?
If I'm driving, I make sure that everyone is properly seated and belted up, regardless of whether it's my kids, friends or parents/in-laws etc.
It could spoil a few relationships if you absolutely insist that your best friend's children belt up, when their mother says it doesn't matter.
Yes but it may do irrepairable harm to the relationship and the child, if the latter goes flying out headfirst through the windscreen.
|
|
|
it is YOU THE DRIVER that takes the can and gets the points on their licence.
Don't you mean "on YOUR licence"? You have just made the point that you cannot put points onto other people's licences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
5'11" at 11 years old.Yes,he was six last week and he is 6" taller than his class mates.Most people assume he is 8 or 9 years old.
|
|
Another piece of legislation that will not be enforced the existing regs are ignored in fact most moving traffic offences are ignored because their are no police to enforce them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
When I told my 8 year old daughter about having to continue using a booster seat until she was 11 years old, she was not happy. She and many of her friends think using a booster cushion is not cool.
Now for the reality check. She is already 135cm so has reached the minimum height to use an adult belt in these new regulations. For the near future she will continue to use a booster seat in my car because I think it is better for her. In my wife's car she has to use a booster seat to see out of the windows as the metal door sides are so high in relation to the seat height. So no problem with new regulations for her.
However I can see a possible problem in the future. If we want to take her out with 2 of her friends then we shall have to ensure the other kids bring their booster seats. This common problem seems to have been overlooked in the regulations.
Another problem area could be one parent dropping their own and a friend's children off at school and then the other collecting them on the same day. This is a fairly regular occurance to allow extra working hours or shift work. This might mean extra booster seats having to be bought.
The intention of the regulation is not unreasonable, but could make life a lot more difficult for many due to our modern lifestyles. The £30 fine would hurt those who probably are on the lowest incomes and tighest budgets.
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
|
When I told my 8 year old daughter about having to continue using a booster seat until she was 11 years old, she was not happy. She and many of her friends think using a booster cushion is not cool. Now for the reality check. She is already 135cm so has
Another problem area could be one parent dropping their own and a friend's children off at school and then the other collecting them on the same day. This is a fairly regular occurance to allow extra working hours or shift work. This might mean extra booster seats having to be bought.
Completely agree. You wouldn't want the seats rattling around in the boot when not in use. I see a market for inflatible booster seats!
Or will manufacturers catch up and put booster cushions in the back seats. I think that Volvo do this, but only on the centre seat. Next car selling point?
|
I wonder how much the "child car seat" industry is worth in the EU and how much they expect it will grow due to this new legislation?
|
|
I personally think it's a ridiculous law that is going to waste thousands of pounds of tax payers money in a failed attempt to enforce it.
If you want your children to travel in safety then buy one. The best thing the legislation could do is make people aware that it could save lives.
Trying to enforce it will be a farce. It's just too vague. I'm fed up of all these petty EU laws that try and replace common sense.
If you don't have the common sense to wear a belt or restraint in the first place then it's just tough luck, spend the money on campaigns to make people aware of the facts.
|
Is this EU driven, or is it getting blamed on the EU like many unpopular laws?
The existing law needed sorting - too many if availables. The new law is going to be a pain though, and they can't enforce the current one.
I have emailed the DFT regarding the "Ocasional" clause. Apparently this is to cover unplanned trips such as the usual parent not being able to pick up the child. If you pre-arrange to pick up the child, then you need the seat. Enforce that!
Oh well get your booster seats while in stock - there is going to be a rush in September.
Joe
|
As an addendum, this proposed new "law" was first reported by the BBC middle of last year. Don't know why its suddenly reared its head now. Slow news day?
Joe
|
|
|
|
If an adult doesnt use seat-belts there has been a choice. In my view the choice not to use belts , as it happens , infringes my liberty not to pay towards the consequences of them not doing so-through higher insurance, the costs of medical and other care and the costs of maintaining their dependents.
But this legislation is needed because here it concerns people , children, who may not be able to make an informed choice , and the evidence is that many people who "make the choice" for them fail to protect them.
I agree that enforcement is an issue- the legislation re use of phones is evidence of that- but at the margin perhaps some adults will take care of their children for the legal reason if no other.
Incidentally would it not be possible for there to be an external display , perhaps a small light, visible on cars from outside when a seat is occupied but it occupant is not belted?
The systems are already in mant cars advising drivers of unbelted passengers, so it wouldnt seem a major extra cost .This would make enforcement much easier, perhaps even showing up on cameras
|
|
|
|
