I wonder if anyone can offer advise or references regarding a problem my other half has had today. She usually parks on the street near Manchester University as she works just behind there. Today she got back to her car to find she'd got a parking ticket. She happened to spot a passing police car and asked them if she was parked illegally and they said no but also that it was a council matter.
The ticket was for parking for too long. Now, she says there was a sign some distance away on the other side of the road suggesting a 2 hour limit but she couldn't find anything on the side of the road she'd parked on. She's going to check again tomorrow, but can anyone advise if there are any guidelines as to what reasonable signage is? I recall seeing something somewhere that hinted signs have to be clear and fairly near the location in question but I can't find anything when searching both the forum and google.
We are mainly trying to work out if she has reasonable grounds for an appeal. She's been parking there for about a fortnight and this is the first time she's got a ticket but that also means she has parked there for that time without seeing any signs that indicate she shouldn't be.
TIA!
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An appeal costs nothing SFAIK and, depending on where you live in UK, you have up to a 3 in 4 chance of being successful! Go for it and keep us posted, please!
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If you are in any doubt you should appeal. Local Authorities do not like you to appeal as it costs them time and money.
THINGS TO CONSIDER?
If you do wish to appeal then do not pay the charge.
If you pay the charge the council will close the case.
It is worth remembering that in most areas, the 50% discount on your PCN is preserved within the initial 14-day period.
You therefore have nothing to lose by appealing against the issue of the PCN.
Most local authorities will give you a further period to pay, should they not accept your representations
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Could it be that the *whole* area has a 2 hr maximum, unless indicated otherwise? I seem to recall that in Liverpool city centre you couldn't park anywhere, unless it was on a meter.
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I feel sure that Manchester will have applied for and been granted an Order under The Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking) Order by virtue of Part 3 Road Traffic Act 1991.
The effect of this is to decriminalise parkling offences removing enforcement from the Police to Parking Attendants employed on or behalf of the LA. It virtually creates a Zone at the entrance of which will be signs outlining what the restrictions are. Whereas in the old days, signs of the restriction had to be placed at intervals, the Order removes this requirement as the times are posted at the entrance to the Zone. The only additional signing required is where there is a change in the restriction.
It is implied that Plod did not issue the ticket which gives weight to my feeling on the Order.
Having been given the Penalty Charge Notice you have 28 days to pay and if paid within 14 days a cheaper rate will apply. Go over the 28 days and you could find it increases 100%. Failure to pay and they will take the matter to County Court to enforce debt and Bailiffs called in.
If vehicle exceeded the allowed time and was ticketted then I doubt the Adjudicator will have any grounds to void the ticket.
dvd
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Manchester was the pioneer of DPM outside London.
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Yes, parking in Manchester is decriminalised.
I suspect the police thing is a red herring - they probably meant they could see nothing wrong with *how* she was parked but nothing beyond that.
She is checking on signs today but I suspect you are correct on the 'zonal' signs thing, although the only possibility may be that there are a range of restrictions around here and as it is out from the centre then less restrictions may be in place.
Truth be told, myself I think she has been lucky not to have this happen sooner as she tends to be less thorough than I would when checking on restrictions. She is adamant there was nothing near the car but if this is no longer a requirement then she may simply not have realised there are 'global' signs to look out for as well. Myself, I would have been suspicious of finding a space that easily...
Thanks all for the advice - depending on the sign situation we *may* appeal. It would appear that we have nothing to lose as if we appeal and it is refused then as long as we appealed within the 14 days the charge stays at £30. Either way, it looks like an earlier departure in the morning is required as apparently the only other parking places are at least 10 minutes further away.
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I would certainly check the entry roads do see if they have a time restriction on display, otherwise there should be indicator plates alongside the road or marked parking bays.
Some years ago I was issued with a parking ticket, with a borrowed car, for staying too long. As it turned out I knew more about the parking in the area as it was outside my house. Where I was parked was an unmarked loading bay specially constructed when the area was developed some 10 years earlier. The 2 hour parking restriction came in to stop all day parking by commuters going to London. Residents were issued with a badge for unlimited parking.
The parking attendant I saw writing the ticket stated incorrectly that where the car was parked was covered by the sign for a nearby restricted bay. He could not point to a sign for where the car was parked, the road and kerb also did not have any markings. Well after a lot of effort with an appeal, I won the case. Sometime later I found out that a number of people had been given tickets for parking in this loading bay, but they had all paid the fine - more fool them.
My advice would be to go and check all the signs very carefully, and then decide whether your wife has had a ticket issued correctly. If it has been issued correctly, then pay it quickly and find somewhere else to park.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Well, we have finally had our reply from the council to this. They have rejected our appeal but it is obvious they have not actually looked in to it. Could anyone maybe advise if there is anything else we can do? The problems as we see them:
Evidence - all they present is three photographs of the car and one of a sign. There is no evidence from the photos where the sign is in relation to the car. They also failed to reply to our query as to how far we were expected to look for a sign.
Timings - The warden recorded the car at 10:08 and again at 12:13. Not only is this a bit tight, only giving 5 minutes over the two hours, but it also does not prove the restriction (2 hours, no return within 1 hour) was breached. Although as we have appealed on signage rather than time I think we have lost this defence already.
Inaccuracies - The times quoted were actually 10:08am and 12:13am. We can prove the car was not there at 12:13am!
The other thing I find a bit off is that they say in the letter not to write to them again and if we want to appeal further to wait for the notice to owner and go through those channels. Which of course means the full fine if the response is still negative. Is this correct? Will they not even clarify their reply based on the above points and the general signage point?
Quickly responding to the signage points made in the thread, we have not seen any 'general restriction' signs on our way in to Manchester and we have both been in 5 or 6 times since this happened. There are signs much further in towards the centre but unless we are missing the scope and they are on the boundaries of Manchester itself we have not seen them. We also checked and the sign they have photographed is a good 100 yards further down the road and on a different 'bay' (by this we mean long bay rather than individual car bay).
Thanks for all replies thus far, anything else would be appreciated even if it is just 'you might as well pay and not have the hassle'.
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Can confirm Manchester obtained the special Parking Order in 1999
www.tinyurl.com/jdjs9
and lists area involved.
It creates a CPZ
www.tinyurl.com/s3r6o
at the entrance to which will be signs giving parking restrictions. Provided they are there then no need to sign at intervals at site. Exception where there is a change to that shown at entrance.
Knowing is half the battle - Appeal procedure:
tinyurl.com/2yqkj
dvd
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Thanks, DVD. I must admit I'm a bit surprised at the extent of the parking order - this would seem to suggest that every street within Manchester (a not inconsiderable area) has a parking restriction on it. I'm going in to Manchester tonight so will keep an eye out for a sign - any idea what they look like? I have seen ones on the approach to Stockport town centre and have certainly not seen similar ones on the way in to Manchester but if they have a different system then the signs may be different.
Looking through the appeals procedure it would seem that the council basically don't have to bother looking in to the case and can just call your bluff with the official appeals procedure.
Truth be told I think she has made a mistake here partly due to lack of knowledge. Better signs would have helped - you can't park on the same road for two weeks and not realise there is a restriction if it signed reasonably well.
Would I be right in thinking that the errors in the councils reply are not enough to be worth picking on? We're not happy as she would not have done this had she known but we'd be happier paying £30 than £60 with lots of hassle.
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Don't give in if you have a good case. I made an appeal against a London borough, concerning signage on a CPZ. Every appeal to the council was rejected (out of hand?), but as soon as the adjudicator passed my evidence onto the council they immediately withdrew the ticket.
The council must have know from my earlier letters that I had a good case, but as they have nothing to loose they just push it all the way, hoping you will give up and pay up.
One year later and they have still not corrected the signs! I wonder if thay are still enforcing their illegal CPZ?
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Trouble is that we don't know if we have a good case. Are the signs marking the boundary of the CPZ there and we just haven't seen them or are we supposed to know by magic that we are entering an area where all parking is restricted.
Based on the links DVD posted last night, it would appear that the entire City of Manchester is a CPZ. Driving in from Stockport down the A6 on the way to Fallowfield last night the only sign I saw was one just outside Stockport town centre giving a parking restriction on HGVs and coaches. Nothing else. Nothing at the boundary etc, etc.
We are confused as to whether we just aren't looking in the right place and the signs are there and if they aren't what distance rules for on-street signage apply.
Truth be told, it seems a lot of hassle to try and prove a case when we don't know what the rules / scope are and they don't make it easy to find out. She's pretty much decided to just pay and save the aggro - she's had experiences in the past of 'talking to brick walls' and doesn't want the hassle.
Thanks all who have replied though.
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She's pretty much decided to just pay and save the aggro - she's had experiences in the past of 'talking to brick walls' and doesn't want the hassle.
There's also the cost of contesting the fine to be considered. And by that I mean the true and total cost.
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L\'escargot.
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Personally I think it's a bit underhand to declare zones, and very difficult for the stranger in the area. Where I live, in Southwark, there are parking signs every few yards as the restrictions change. Residents parking and single-yellow-line restrictions Mon-Fri; free-for-all at other times.
I went into Westminster the other Saturday, and tried to park in a residential area (a fairly reasonable 4p/min on the meter). Noticing single yellow lines, and one or two cars parked on them, I imagined the same restricitons would apply as at home. So I looked everywhere for a sign indicating parking restrictions on yellow lines; in the absence of being able to find one I paid. Thank goodness, a long chat with a parking attendant in a kepi told me what a lucky escape I'd had, but he was *completely* unable to point me towards a sign that told me what the rules are.
If the parking attendant cannot find the sign; what hope us?
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This would be an ideal opportunity for Ken to do something. An integrated parking strategy for all the London Boros......
Who would like to take up the baton? It would be sensible if it was a London resident.
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pmh (was peter)
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Any attempt to harmonise parking would result in the cheaper, less restricted boroughs becoming more expensive and more restricted. Kensington where I live has some quite cheap pay and display parking and residents' permits apply to the whole borough, which is very big. Current plans to extend the congestion charge zone to cover Kensington are likely to alter this.
Torturing motorists makes money. That unfortunately is why there's no point in lobbying with any of the major political parties to lay off. As for the minor ones, they are anti car anyway.
Actually I want to stop thinking about this now if you don't mind.
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Some examples of signage, explanation of a CPZ and guidance on appeals generally at www.parking-appeals.gov.uk/ . Really a question of whether she's prpepared to take a punt on loosing the early payment discount.
The adjudicators are professionals, lawyers of at least seven years standing. Should be a reasonably pain free and informal process, just the appellant, adjudicator and possibly a rep from the Council around a desk in an office or hotel meeting room. No guarantee of a win but appellants who present their cases in person have an excellent success rate.
Either way she should leave feeling she's had a fair crack of the whip.
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If it were me I would start a full appeal. If she could not see any signs on the day and then went back and still did not find any on her return at a later date, they are probably no signs with the necessary information. If this is the situation then she will win her case.
It may be that the parking authority knows this already and will cancel the ticket before the hearing.
Remember it may seem like a lot of hassle to her, but it will cost the parking aurthority far more than £30 (the cost of her not accepting the discounted ticket) to defend their actions in person. As Bromptonaut says the appellant has an excellent chance of sucess.
In the past I managed to get a parking ticket cancelled before it went to appeal due to non-existant signs. Yes it did involve a bit of work, but why should you take the parking attendants work as law when you know you are right. Too often the parking attendant issuing the ticket knows very little about what is legally acceptable procedure.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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From D of T Sign Book:
In Controlled Zone the entry signs give details of the times and days the restriction operates. The sign may also indicate that the Zone is Meter Zone,Disc Zone, Ticket Zone, Voucher Parking Zone or Pay and Display Zone. Inside the Zone, yellow lines show where waiting is prohibited or restricted. No yellow time plates are provided unless the waiting restriction imposed on that particular length of road is different to that indicated on the Zone entry sign. (End)
The sign which should be erected at the entrance points to the Zone is a:
white rectangle, lengthwise up.
Top of the sign indicates what it is etc i.e. 'Meter'
Under this is the word Zone in large black letters.
Underneath is the blue roundel with red border and diagonal line across the face.
Line across the plate________________________________________.
Details of restriction listed i.e.
Mon -Fri
8.30am - 6.30pm
Saturday
8.30am- 1.30pm
Providing these plates are erected then no need for plates at yellow lines unless restriction changed i.e. single to double when plate would be required at change point.
Traffic Management of Manchester CBC should be able to identify the Zone involved and its entry sign location from which you can check to see if complies. If you do contact then they will also be able to supply details of the Waiting Restriction Order for the yellow lines so you can check.
dvd
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I understand the difficulty with large CPZs, in my case I could walk around it and see the many many errors in signage. I used only the nearest missing sign off a red route, which as I understand cannot be in a CPZ.
Interesting Mapmaker, quess what council my appeal was against?
You do not need to turn up in person to the adjudication you can do it by post, as I live in Plymouth and the adjudication was in London that is how I did it. The council didn't turn up either:-) (see earlier post).
Look at the cases here:
www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/key_cases.asp#...h
It will give you alot more confidence as you read them. Dispite what the council will say on the notice to owner there are many grounds of appeal as seen in the key cases on the above webpage.
As for 'talking to brick walls' in my experience that is what it will be like dealing with the council, it's not until it goes to the adjudicator that the council will take notice.
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As for 'talking to brick walls' in my experience that is what it will be like dealing with the council, it's not until it goes to the adjudicator that the council will take notice.
Carolyn Sheppard, the Chief Adjudicator for NPAS, made much the same point when interviewed on a recent BBC "Law in Action" programme.
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Surely if the parking is 10:08 and the ticket was issued at 12:13am then the Council must have Dr Who or another Time Lord as a parking warden - the ticket was issued 10 hours before you arrived.
On that basis is the parking ticket invalid? or is it just taken as a clerical error. I would write and question that.
If the warden cannot tell am from pm are they able to tell the time accurately?
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On that basis is the parking ticket invalid? or is it just taken as a clerical error. I would write and question that.
I was wondering this, plus the fact they have not shown the relationship between the sign location and the car location. However, our main concern is that we have 11 days left to pay the fine otherwise we are up to £60 and we have not been able to find any concrete guidelines on CPZ markings, signage and in general whether we have a good case. You can bet the council won't reply to any of these points in any sort of a hurry so if we try anything else we will go over the 14 day limit and I'm not sure enough we have a reasonable case.
Based on what has been said, if we have missed the signs on entry to the CPZ and the time thing is put down as a clerical error and therefore not important then the fine is justified despite how aggrieved we feel - the law may not be fair but it is the law.
The one thought I have had is to get her to check the time on the ticket. If this is down as 12:13AM then maybe we have a case, otherwise I think there is too much uncertainty for us to want to push things.
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I did think that the clock was stopped while correspondence was in progress; have you written to the council? Why not appeal - £30 increase in the fine is only the cost of half a tank of fuel or a good bottle of single malt! Worth a punt I'd say but I'm bolshie - I'll fight things like this just for fun and to make the wasters earn their keep and index linked final salary pensions!
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I'll fight things like this just for fun .....
Throwing good money after bad is not my idea of fun!
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L\'escargot.
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£30 is not "good money" it is a small supermarket shop or 1/2 a tank of fuel. Many many parking appeals are successful, why not give it a try? Nothing like geting a result in a fight with a jobsworth IMHO. I am an OAP but I'd still punt £30 on this, on principle.
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The regulations can be found here
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
In my experience it is well worth getting involved in corrispondence with the council. They will likely provide you with ammunition, contradict themselves and unwittingly undo their own case.
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We've been told that the only way we can appeal further is to wait for the notice to owner and go through the procedure detailed there. The council specifically tell us not to reply to their letter. Doesn't seem fair as you'd have thought at least one 'clarification' letter should be allowed but then I suppose they also don't want people dragging it out when they have no hope of winning.
Myself, I'd probably agree with you and fight it but she isn't in the position to be throwing money around and previous hassle has caused health problems so she isn't inclined to go through it again.
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I think Armitage Shanks is right the 14 days will be reset during initial correspondence, remember they want your money with the minimum of effort.
Regarding Controlled Parking Zone signing requirements:
From the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
"controlled parking zone" means either -
(a) an area -
(i) in which, except where parking places have been provided, every road has been marked with one or more of the road markings shown in diagrams 1017, 1018.1, 1019 and 1020.1; and
1017 single yellow lines
1018.1 double yellow lines
1019 and 1020.1 are loading restriction marks
(ii) into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign shown in diagram 663 or 663.1; or
663 large white rectangular sign indicating controlled zone and time restrictions such as the one in the bottom left corner of this webpage
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs07.htm
663.1 variation of above
(b) is unlikely to apply as it refers to larger vehicles
I find it hard to believe that a large area is likely to comply with these requirements, much more likely that the council has been sloppy with its signage.
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Follow-up: Ticket just says 12:13 so I'm pretty sure the council will put it down as a transcription error.
She's decided challening then will be too much work and trouble so has paid. Thanks for all the advice.
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Hi
There are enough doubts for you to feel aggrieved, so why not appeal? That will make you feel better, and as someone has already pointed out, may put your case before someone with better training in law and procedure.
I am telling the absolute truth here. My mother was given a parking ticket for a similar offence some time ago. It was a criminal offence then. We had nothing brilliant to defend it with - just a burning sense of injustice. The sign was nowhere near the road, the marking on the road unclear etc etc.
The first appeal was on paper and rejected by magistrates. We elected to go to the Crown Court! When we turned up the judge laughed and said it was the first appealed parking ticket he had ever come across. He immediately allowed the appeal, quashed the fine, and asked how much we wanted in expenses, for being put to such trouble.
It was a bit of a dream moment :)
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Alijazz
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Sorry - should have mentioned it was for parking in Cheadle and the appeal was heard in Manchester Crown Court.
A
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I took to parking where double yellows had been burnt off to make way for parking bays,but they had not been installed.After a while I got a ticket,wrote pointing out there were no double yellows,reply said that when I entered Leeds city centre I was entering a no parking zone,where parking was only allowed at the council's discretion,a load of rubbish,where were the signs to tell me this?backed up by them dropping the fine.
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