tinyurl.com/7rl8k
21 year old in his car with his mates. Spots a Scamera van on bridge over road. Is doing 20mph (in a 40mph zone) and he takes both hands off the wheel, leans towards the windscreen and gives the van 2 "V" signs.
Of course this is captured on camera, is handed over to police and they prosecute him for dangerous driving as had both hands off the wheel.
Is banned for a year, fined £90 and ordered to resit his test.
Now my gut feeling is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. But then I feel that if he is stupid enough to do what he did, in front of his mates, what else would he be doing as well?
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Banning's too good for cocky gits like that.
Bring back the birch, I say.
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He deserves it for being a numpty, but I don't consider what he did dangerous driving.
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He was a plonker but he doesn't deserve that punishment. They've done that to make an example out of him.
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Although stupid behaviour, I don't consider a test resit appropriate. He should have been given a fine, a warning and told to do some community service. Plenty of elderly people around us who could do with some help in their gardens, chopping up logs etc.
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Read what the paper says again " he took both hands off the wheel....leaned across his front seat passenger..." so not only isn't he holding the wheel he's not even facing forwards let alone looking where he's going. He's not only endangering himself but also his passengers and any other road users - deserves all he got.
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I have read it again and stand by my comment. I don't condone what he did but 20mph is hardly fast.
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I think the punishment is about right, particularly the bit about resitting his test. Oiks who do stupid things just to show off in front of their mates are a danger to themselves, their mates, and the rest of humanity. Perhaps being banned for a year will allow him time to reflect on his maturity, or lack of it.
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"Perhaps being banned for a year will allow him time to reflect on his maturity"
Doubt it, most likely it will allow him time to drive unlicensed and uninsured, but there you have it.
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Press reports rarely tel whole story.
Sherriff had the benefit of evidence from the camera operator and viewed the snaps. On that basis if he thought ban, resit etc were needed thats good enough for me. If Toerag's actions caused him to swerve other drivers may take unpredictable avoiding action.
And 20mph is quite fast enough to do serious damage to a vulnerable road user
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Hanging and floging is too good.
Hanging drawing and quartering better:-)
Seriously Muppets like that deserve it: "por encourager les autres" as Voltaire said (I think) when Admiral Byng was hung for capturing Gibraltar (against orders).
madf
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Admiral Byng was hung for capturing Gibraltar (against orders). madf
His father captured Gib. Byng Junior's offence was the loss of Menorca.
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Por not por sorry..
madf
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Pour, surely?
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Pour yes. barin dead this am.. sorry brain dead. dislexia strikes ko
madf
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Four passengers, plus the other vehicles/pedestrians in the vicinity - even at 20 mph he could have wiped out a young mum with a push chair and a toddler.
I think the Sherrif probably got it right. If all the lad had been given was a £50 fine + 3 points, he'd have thought "Result!" and carried on being a numpty, dangerous idiot.
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Why was the operator aiming at him in the first place?
I thought that they were only allowed to take pics of people who were "in the opinion of the operator, obviously speeding".
No matter how badly he was driving, the operator has to be a bit thick if he thinks 20mph is speeding.
I think he has hard done by. He's probably no angel, but a ban and resit is way over the top.
I read in the paper that he is going to appeal. I can see him getting off with it.
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The camera clocked him at 20 mph, but what speed was he doing when he spotted the van? He could well have been doing 45, hence the op. ranged in on him, only for him to slam on the brakes and do his wee comedy turn.
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The operator would have seen him long before he had a chance to do that.
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The words "driving without due care and attention " come to mind.
madf
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And the words "horrendously overblown punishment" come to mine.
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The law always comes down hard on "contempt of court" - and punishes it in a way that many would think of as overblown. This may not exactly be "contempt of court" - but it does indicate contempt for the law - so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised.
It was also quite deliberate - whereas a lot of motoring offenses are the result of carelessness.
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I'm sorry, but what part of taking both hands off the wheel, leaning across a passenger, and not looking where you're going is not dangerous?
Little toerag deserved it if you ask me.
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Letting go of the steering wheel for 2 seconds at 20mph on a presumably straight road, is not very dangerous, IMO. But he needed to be made an example of, theres such little respect for authority nowadays.
What if all his mates and others who heard about it started doing it every time they saw a camera van; pretty soon you could get a serious accident resulting from it.
Think the ban is a bit harsh but I suppose that goes with the DD charge. I dont think it could be classed as DWDCA as it was a deliberate act, not carelessness.
You can get done for dangerous driving by undertaking on a motorway, but many people don't consider that to be dangerous.
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In reality this bloke hasn't been done for careless driving, he has been done for being rude to the police.
I can imagine what would happen if i reported someone for taking both hands off the wheel to give me a V sign. Lets assume I could prove that it happened. Does anyone seriously suggest that the Police would be remotely interested?
Without condoning what this bloke did in any way, or seeking to disagree with those who think he is a numpty, this case is a scandal in my opinion.
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I gather that in Germany, offensive gestures whilst driving are punished if detected or reported. Seems fair enough to me. Should be concentrating on driving not puerilie behaviour. Pity there aren't more police about to stamp on this yobbo behaviour.
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For oonce Mr Blair's Respect agenda is enforced:-)
madf
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A years ban is a bit harsh, but totally agree with the re-sitting of his test - that would focus his mind enough, cause him some hardship but he would be less likely to drive un-licensed and un-insured.
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how many times have you seen idiotic behaviour from young drivers, and wished the police had been there to see it? Or thought to yourself, they deserve a good shoeing? Yes it is harsh, but damn does he deserve it.
>>Without condoning what this bloke did in any way, or seeking to disagree with those who think he is a numpty, this case is a scandal in my opinion
Methinks not, Lawman.
--
let me be the last to let you down....
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I wonder what his demeanour was like in court(before sentence)?
Contrite or with 'attitude'.
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how many times have you seen idiotic behaviour from young drivers, and wished the police had been there to see it? Or thought to yourself, they deserve a good shoeing? Yes it is harsh, but damn does he deserve it. >>Without condoning what this bloke did in any way, or seeking to disagree with those who think he is a numpty, this case is a scandal in my opinion Methinks not, Lawman. -- let me be the last to let you down....
The Lawman is talking about the law, surely, while most others are concerned with natural (or rough) justice.
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I was talking about the odious comparison between what happens when we are rude to each other and when we are rude to the police.
The case is a scandal not because he shouldn't have been punished, but because it makes the criminal justice system look like the private preserve of the police. It reminds me of the bloke who was convicted for asking a policeman if his horse was gay (true story).
We have historically had good relations between the police and the public because of something called policing by consent. We should all be equal in the eyes of the law. Our policeman have historically not acted like bullies. They are not seen as state enforcers to be feared, but public servants to be respected (and who respect us).
This sort of case erodes all that.
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Some police services (not forces any more) have a very high idea of their own importance. Last year an East Midlands service were irritated by motor cyclists making V signs at safety cameras. They were so aggravated that they formed a 5 man/2 vehicle force to apprehand these criminals! You couldn't make it up, and I didm't!
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Sorry if this seems dumb, Lawman, but if he should have been punished then how should it have been done? Of course I take the point about the police being hoity-toity when people are rude to them and indifferent (not always, surely?) when they are rude to each other, but do you think the rudeness should have been ignored in this instance because punishing it made the law look like the private preserve of the police? Very funny that case about the gay horse. You could dine out for life on a bust like that.
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Sorry, I disagree with The Lawman; if I had been driving in the opposite direction and seen this incident and subsequently found out that nothing was done as he "was only doing 20 in 40mph area" I would have taken a very poor view of the Police. The Police have hard enough a job without having to take this sort of thing on the chin. IMHO if this guy had simply been waving at the camera rather than the V signs I'd expect the punishment to be the same as he was convicted for letting go of the wheel whilst driving and leaning across his passenger ie clearly not in control.
For info East Road in Cupar is a two lane road leading in/out of the town on the main route to St Andrews, there are no bridges as supposed above and the camera would have been in a marked van at the side of the road. Everything from children on bikes to juggernauts use this road.
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Since Mr Blair has sounded off much about respect and that has been brought up in this motoring matter, can any legal eagle suggest a mode of indicating disrespect (at 78 after having my motoring ruined for about half a century I feel entitled to) which I cannot be done for by any sort of manipulation of the law?
And no, it does seem that the lad was driving inadviseably. But I agree that is not what he was really done for.
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The point is he got banned for a year. That puts his punishment on a par with a drunk driver. You will be able to find a large number of cases where a driver who has caused death by dangerous driving has got off lighter than this. All because he flicked the V sign at a speed camera.
Oh, and anyone who has got on their high horse about what this bloke has done had better be sure that they have never taken both hands off the wheel ever, (or eaten an apple while driving for that matter!)
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The point is he got banned for a year. That puts his punishment on a par with a drunk driver. You will be able to find a large number of cases where a driver who has caused death by dangerous driving has got off lighter than this. All because he flicked the V sign at a speed camera. Oh, and anyone who has got on their high horse about what this bloke has done had better be sure that they have never taken both hands off the wheel ever, (or eaten an apple while driving for that matter!)
Since the twerp was going slowly and no accident occurred, a year's ban does seem harsh. Do I understand that a short ban (a month, say) would not have seemed so scandalous?
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... but public servants to be respected (and who respect us). This sort of case erodes all that.
It was the driver sticking V signs up at the camera, not the other way around. Thats not very respectful is it?
Whats the gay horse story, that sounds funny?!
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I'm sorry. the guy broke the law. You take pot luck in a magistrates court. If you are rude and disrespectful of the law you are likely to be treated more harshly.
Facts of life.
If people don't learn the facts of life, they cannot complain when they get treated harshly.
Street wisdom .
Muppet behaviour gets what muppets deserve.
madf
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His only mistake was doing the V sign with 2 hands instead of one !
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Can't remember the exact details of the gay horse case, but it was reported in the papers a few months ago. It was either at a demo or a football match. One of the people there 9I think a bloke0 started going on at one of the mounted policemen, saying things like "that's a really nice horse, he looks a bit gay to me, is he gay etc etc" He plainly intended to get up the policeman's nose and equally plainly succeeded. He was nicked, charged and I think convicted.
As to the harshness of the driver's ban, it is I know very difficult to have sympathy with this bloke (he does sound like a serious numpty)and it is in a way refreshing to see this sort of behaviour stamped down on from time to time. I stand by my original point though, his punishment was extremely harsh, and he was only punished at all because he was rude to "the state".
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Sorry, I don't know how to do links, but if some kind soul does a google search agasint "gay horse" this story will be the first hit. It says he was in court on 16 December, challenging his £80 on the spot fine (the student, not the horse..)
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tinyurl.com/c98ly
6 officers and 2 squad cars. I wonder if the average officer in question can spell "overreaction"
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Yer tis
tinyurl.com/c98ly
It was the second hit on my computer, the first hit was definitely nothing to with it!
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Can't remember the exact details of the gay horse case, but it was reported in the papers a few months ago. It was either at a demo or a football match. One of the people there 9I think a bloke0 started going on at one of the mounted policemen, saying things like "that's a really nice horse, he looks a bit gay to me, is he gay etc etc" He plainly intended to get up the policeman's nose and equally plainly succeeded. He was nicked, charged and I think convicted.
What was he charged with? Why is calling anyone (or anything) gay illegal? What if he had pointed out that the horse looked completely straight? Would he have been arrested then?
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Gay horse link...tinyurl.com/b24mc
Not as simple as supposed.. he was drunk in a public place for a start which IS an offence.
ete etc etc. Another muppet who had no street smarts.
madf
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But life would be poorer and thinner without some of these loonies, innit?
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Not really. The charge in question is:
"using threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour within the hearing of a person likely to be caused distress"
I'm not at all convinced he did that.
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try section 5 public order ;-)
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Re. the gay horse story (and a story is what it is)
...."he was drunk in a public place for a start which IS an offence."
Quite so; the fuller truth starts to emerge :-) Offences committed and dealt with.
As for this "V-sign chap", he was not in control of his vehicle and got punished. He pushed the boundaries and got a nasty surprise. Oh dear.
I don't think the punishment was excessive, but I do think a lot of sentences handed out are painfully inadequate and totally laughable - and those "in the dock" know it, as do those defending them. Hence repeat offenders - no real deterrent and the police losing the will to live - knowing they will be let off again (aka Community service, small fine etc) and will commit another crime. Perhaps they should build an open house for those bailed - ideally next door to where magistrates and their defending lawyers live..Wouldn't be so funny then, then again... ;-)
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Gay horse link...tinyurl.com/b24mc Not as simple as supposed.. he was drunk in a public place for a start which IS an offence. ete etc etc. Another muppet who had no street smarts. madf
>>
'Gay' police horse case dropped
"....there was not enough evidence..."
Neigh comment is available from the horse!
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4606022.stm
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Sounds like selective recall to me. I can't see anyone getting a conviction for dangerous driving on that. I am sure that it must have been more than taking hands off wheel and giving V sign. Are we sure we aren't taking about someone upside down in the drivers seat, facing the wrong way AND showing his backside?
Now THAT would merit a ban and conviction for the bare faced cheek of it.
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Tack, one of the papers today has the actual speed camera picture in it. It was, as described, leaning over and flicking 2 V signs.
On a legal point of note, how is this "evidence" allowed to be printed in the paper? Surely it must infringe some sort of human rights?
IIRC, on a previous thread, it was stated that you can't ask for a copy of the pic until you have pled not guilty, so how can the Prosecution then allow the picture to be published in a national tabloid?
Unless it was the defendant who released it to the papers??
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Whilst I loath speed camera vans and the jumped up little persons that operate them I would not be stupid enough to make a V sign.
The harshness of the ofence is mearly due to the fact that he was undisputably caught. The fact is if hea had been driving an unredgisterd car he would have got completly away.
This case reminds me of the penshioner who was charged with endangering an air craft after he shone his torch onto a police helicopter.
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What isn't mentioned is his previous driving record (good or bad)
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There isn't much info in the link that Bobby posted.
I'm in two minds about it.....
I can see the sheriffs or magistrates as it would be in England/Wales getting fed up with this sort of behaviour. In addition the Dangerous Driving charge would IMO be correct for a deliberate act, whereas a careless driving charge would be for lack of care.
What this lad did was deliberate, and it showed a gross disregard for the safety of him, his passengers and other road users, such disregard is all too common these days IMO, and this guy got caught. As a result he has put his independence and livelihood at stake. He has only himself to blame.
For these reasons, having to resit his test IMO is right. But a 12 month ban is perhaps a little strong for a bout of foolishness. As some have said, this sentance puts this offence on a level with drink driving, which I don't think is right.
I hope he appeals, and has the ban quashed or set to when he next passes his test.
H
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