Hi, My sister's boyfriend's car recently expired on the motorway, which turned out to be a snapped timing chain.
The car, a Nissan micra 1.0 16v on an N plate is not really worth much. So he took it to a garage just for a quote,
the garage said they'd take a look and get back to him.
So they phoned him up a few days later and said they'd taken the head off and couldn't see much damage so the major problem would be on the bottom end and they'd have to take the engine out to see what was wrong. When he asked how much it was going to cost they told him they couldn't say without taking the engine out and wouldn't say anything about cost to complete the quote. He doesn't know much about cars so he said "go ahead" to take the engine out. When they came back to him they gave him a quote of nearly £1000 to repair, which obviously is a bit too much given the value of the car. But to add insult, they said the bill was £300 vat for the work done already and it would cost another £200 to put back together and more for the scrapping costs. Well two minutes on the phone found a local scrapyard to the garage who will pick it up with no engine in for nothing.
The problem is, although he authorised them to take the engine out, they didn't tell him it would cost so much and were evasive when asked about cost before taking the engine out so he didn't really authorise work to that value.
So what is the best course of action. Pay the £350 to get the car out or is there a case for him to argue?
The garage have obviously seen him coming and decided to try it on. Should he offer them something, say £150? or because they didn't say the diagnosis would cost anything should he pay nothing. What is the worst they can do if he decides not to pay?
Thanks,
B.
|
Snapped timing chain on the Motorway and taking it to a garage doesn't even sound plausable and discredits the rest of the story.
|
[QUOTE]Snapped timing chain on the Motorway and taking it to a garage doesn't even sound plausable and discredits the rest of the story.[/QUOTE]
Why?? The car ground to a hault on the Motorway and the Greenflag man who recovered it said the bottom end was turning over but the top end wasn't. OK, we didn't take the car to a garage, the garage came and picked it up, but thats a little pedantic if you are basing your comment on it.
|
|
Taking an engine out - say a 2? hour job plus another hour for a good inspection, so 3 hours @ say £40 an hour plus vat = roughly £140. Offer £150 or just leave the car for the garage to dispose of if they do not accept your offer. All IMHO of course!
|
|
|
|
About 10 years ago I had a Nissan Micra (F reg) that also snapped a cam belt. The AA confirmed this and towed my car to the local Nissan agent. The garage confirmed the following day that only the head was affected. Once the head was removed they also discovered there were also 2 bent valves. It certainly did not entail removing the engine. When the head was checked it was found not to have warped so it did not require skimming (warning skimming the head may stop it running on unleaded fuel).
I cannot remember the exact cost, but it was about £600. Included in this cost they also did the annual service and replaced the front pads and disks.
With the head off the garage should have been able to ascertain whether the bottom end was free (I'm not a mechanic but even I know this). I would have expected them to remove the sump rather than the engine to check the bottom end, I would certainly ask why the engine needed to be removed.
In your case it seems certain that the garage are making the bill as large as possible. I would advise that you obtain a second mechanical opinion before you pay anything. This will certainly help if at a later time the dispute goes legal. Even having a chat with Green Flat would not be amiss, they might be able to advise on getting a second opinion.
If it is deemed that removing the engine was an uneccessary procedure then, the competence of the garage is called into question. Even though authorisation was given, presumably only verbally by telephone, they should have advise the anticipated cost. No garage can defend an unlimited authorisation by telephone.
If he decides not to pay anything could cause more problems as the garage could decide to sue for the outstanding bill and start to charge storage. It would be more difficult to defend your action and could result with a County Court Judgement against him and extra court costs.
Personally I would certainly offer £150 in full and final settlement as a reasonable payment for the investigations carried out to enable the release of the car (do this in writing and keep a copy). Do include a cheque, as if they bank the cheque without realising the "Full and Final Settlement" clause, he will now have evidence that they accepted his offer. (A legal opinion on this site may differ slightly from this view.) Then he can either arrange to have a scappy tow it away or remove it to another garage for repair.
|
|
The later K11 Micras had chains and not belts. They were prone to tensioner wear and hence breakage. I would have thought 300 was "enough" for a quote, but was authorised, if I have read your post correctly. How about a second hand engine if you realy want to keep it?
|
|
|
"a legal opinion on this site may differ slightly from this view"
Correct! Sending a cheque in "full and final settlement" does often release you from further liability if it is accepted and paid. In most cases, the payee can bank the cheque on account of what he is owed, and claim for the balance. In order to get it to work it is necessary to comply with several contractual principles, and is not for the layman really.
|
|
|
|
go and talk to trading standards for their advice.
www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/calitem.cgi?fi...t
Repairs have been carried out without authorisation!
|
|
Dodger -- that seems a thoughtful and comprehensive analysis of the workshop aspects. As one who has done his own engine rebuilds for forty years, I'm sure you're dead right.
|
|
|
|
Just goes to prove the point that you *must* make relevant checks to ensure that the Garage you use is reputeable before you send your vehicle there to be 'looked at' because if they are unscrupulous, then they will see you coming a mile off, and look to rachet up their charges.
It is a difficult situation, and one no-one should find themselves in, but I think Trading Standards should be your first stop, but I fear the garage has your friend well and truly trussed up since they willa rgue they got authorisation to do the work and those are their charges.
You will have to prove that either:
1) They did unneccessary work - did the engine need removing to fault find?
2) That their labour rates are excessive - comapring them to other simialr garages int he area.
And I wouldn't leave the car for scrap on their premises since they will start billing you for 'storage costs' etc. It's a tricky one, but get proper advice from Trading Standards/CAB.
Good Luck!
-----
Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
|
Snip---------8<----------8<----------
When he asked how much it was going to cost they told him they couldn't say without taking the engine out and wouldn't say anything about cost to complete the quote.
Snip---------8<----------8<----------
I'm struggling to imagine what diagnosis procedure I could carry out with the engine out of the car that I couldn't carry out with it still in place, albeit, perhaps with the sump and various cover plates removed.
I would hope to arrive at a diagnosis prior to incurring expensive costs, and only then, if agreed by the customer, carry out major disassembly.
Dismantling and diagnosis are not one and the same task.
number_cruncher
|
I'm struggling to imagine what diagnosis procedure I could carry out with the engine out of the car that I couldn't carry out with it still in place,
>>
See thats the point. As 'Customers' we (and I include myself here) rely on the professional' (thats the garage) to tell us truthfully how much work needs doing and if doing A to achieve B is needed or not.
Perhaps you, as a trained mechanic know what sounds 'right' and what doesn't - but we as Puntes don't always know. So if a mechanics says that A needs doing, then we either rely on our own isntincts (will doing A actually help) or trust implicitly the advice we're being given - since we don't know either way.
With a ltitle experience, Punters can gain some understanding of what needs to be done and how, but this isn't fool proof. If the Garage have taken advantage of the situation, then we wont always know unless it is so grossly against common sense.
-----
Im not plain stupid, just a special kind of stoopid.
|
|
|
>>Dismantling and diagnosis are not one and the same task.
Diagnosis is not always possible.Ie stripdown/removal of engine may be needed to give accurate reason for a failure. would agree cost of doing so should have been mentioned..And this is where the fault lies.One the garage was told in effect to carry on..They failed to give a price but permission given..
>>I would hope to arrive at a diagnosis prior to incurring expensive costs
As you hope to. is not the point.It isnt always possible..and hence so many Questions on this forum and so many others
--
Steve
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for all the advice. I'll let you know how it went.
Is there anywhere to name and shame this bunch of people.
|
Is there anywhere to name and shame this bunch of people.
Not here please. DD.
|
|
I too can't imagine a good reason why they'd remove the engine. If you should examine the car, I'd note the engine number and ensure it corresponds with the V5.
|
|
|
|
