There have been several threads in which backromers have discussed their understandable fears of the proposed EU vehicle-tracking system, which raises obvious Big Brother concerns.
What I hadn't twigged was that this is happening already. I have just heard from someone who has a company car, which is heavily used for business: the company is fitting a tracking device to it. That may have some legitimacy during business hours, but what worries my correspondent is that the car is also used (with the company's consent) for private purposes by the employee and partner, but the the tracking system is on 24/7. It's not just live tracking, 'cos the system also produces a log. My correspondent is rightly worried about the loss of privacy for their family.
I've no idea what rights they have in that situation ... but it seems to me that this is just as big an invasion of privacy a state-run system, and possibly more so, because there are fewer statutory controls on the company's use of the data.
So if you are a company car driver, say hi to Big Brother. He's probably gonna be watching you much sooner than you thought :(
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This is a difficult one. As a single man I would tell the company to stick it where the sun don't shine but I am aware that not everyone can do this.
Also almost certainly this contravenes the European Human Rights Act as to privacy and respect for family life but again not everyone can or wants to sue their employers.
If in the situation I had to stomach it I would find my local evil electronics genius and get something that fried the systems circuits. I would then fry it on a regular basis and just claim the system was unreliable.
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There is the world of difference between these two examples.
If an employer said he wanted to track my private journeys when in a company car then there is the whole panoply of employment tribunals, unions etc to point out that this is neither reasonable nor appropriate.
If HMG or the EU legislate to remove my privacy then there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. It will be just as unreasonable, but that will be tough.
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>>>>>If HMG or the EU legislate to remove my privacy then there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.
Of course there is. Emigrate to the Land of Sun & Fun. (I can help) ;+D
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Mr. G,
Plans are currently being advanced for the Thommo one to do just that for a year at least. Mind you my land of Sun & Fun is different to yours but not that different and not that far away...
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Of course there is. Emigrate to the Land of Sun & Fun. (I can help) ;+D
:-D
The first draft of my post did actually say "short of emigrating", but I deleted that bit as it's not really an option for me, personally.
If I was single and unattached then I'd be long gone. Gordon, Tony, Alastair, Mandy, bye bye the lot of you.
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I think tracking devices have been installed for several years now. Certainly my cousin (who works for a large multinational) has had one in his company car since about two years ago. Its company policy. I gather they are also the norm on company cars in the US too, as well as lots of trucks etc. My cousin's company mobile phone has some kind of tracking facility too; his company subscribe to a service whereby they can get his location from his mobile telephone. I believe its a service offered over the web.
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The hire car firm I used to work for had these devices fitted.
You could track the car in realtime on your PC and even get an e-mail and mobile phone text if the car went within excluded areas such as ports and motor-racing circuits. You could also get it to send a warning if the car went over a pre-determined speed and if you added the right sensors (wired it up?), it would tell you if the car was close to overheating etc, etc.
The devices were ridiculously cheap and were in effect just a mobile phone perminently wired to the car (probably a bit more technical, but there you go!).
Go to www.trackercom.com log in as a guest, download the mapping software and you can have a play with the system and see what it can do.
Finally, for hire cars it had a genuine good use. As a device to track down your missus, staff or the population it can only be bad in my view.
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They are becoming more and more common. They are automatically installed on all of my employer's commercial vehicles and some cars also.
There were some quite vocal objections when the system was first installed onto the vans (although nobody mentioned Human Rights) which was possibly explained by the number of vehicles that turned out to be
a) still on the employee's drive half an hour after the start of their shift
b) spending two hours stationary in the vicinity of MacDonalds over the lunch period
c) showing lots of movement on weekends for vehicles that weren't permitted for private use
The corporate policy basically became "It's our vehicle, so we make the rules. If you don't like it, we can change the system and you'll have to collect your van every day from the depot".
They are really just an extension of the tracker system that is activated after a theft but I'd be curious to see if the BR thinks it to be Big Brother in disguise.
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I wouldn't worry, the British always resign themselves to failure and despair after a day of whining.
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You are already tracked with some degree of accuracy if you move around with your mobile phone switched on. Does that bother you much?
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These tracking systems are common amongst van fleets however I think that there a multitidude of potential issues when it comes to company cars. For instance if an employee is paying BiK then the car is considered to be part of their remuneration and therefore is purchased/leased on the basis that the individual will use it for business and pleasure and is being taxed on the basis that they have specific car at their disposal 24 hours a day. Accordingly the fact that the car is being monitored 24/7, i.e. when the individual is going about private business, makes the car a less attractive/valuable element of the individuals remuneration and may justify questions being raised about BiK values under these circumstances.
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The corporate policy basically became "It's our vehicle, so we make the rules. If you don't like it, we can change the system and you'll have to collect your van every day from the depot".
When it comes to a company car the employer cannot make these kind of claims because by paying BiK the employee gains certain rights over the vehicle.
For instance IIRC if a company car driven by a BiK paying office based employee is sitting in an office car park all day the company cannot insist that the car is used by another employee who need a vehicle for a few hours.
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Well if someone wants to monitor where I go with or without my car I couldn't care less. Since I'm not planning on doing anything terribly naughty outside of my 4 walls I think they'll soon get bored and give up. On the other hand if I get accused of doing anything naughty there should be some proof that I wasn't there.
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Unless they alter the code.... :)
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I'm one of Growler's seat warmers waiting for my index linked pension so I can view company cars with a certain amount of detachment ;-P.
If the system catches officer x two timing with a rival outfit that's one thing. But what if he's cheating on his wife, is her lawyer entitled to discovery of the logs? Or what if it's the boss's wife he's going over the side with?
It may also be treated as infallible. VM knows he's as white as white but the system shows what is apparently his car off bounds for three hours. How to disprove?
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I don't subscribe to the 'I ain't doing nuffink wrong so I ent worried' line of thinking as I simply do not trust this (or any) government not to misuse information. As to private companies they simply should not be allowed to collect and use such information.
I pay cash wherever possible. I never use credit cards unless I have to. I do not hold any loyalty cards. When required to fill in forms such as when purchasing a TV I fill in rubbish. I do everything within my power to thwart Big Brother and now it seems I will have to drive a 'classic car' until they get retrofitted...
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Do a web search on "Telematics", then ditch your company car and go private.
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Someone always brings up the argument that your mobile phone can record all of your movements anyway, so why worry about a tracking device in your car? If I want to keep my movements a secret I can turn the phone off, the tracker is permanant.
And as I've said before regarding this "If you've got nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" argument, anyone who has got to my age and never had anthing to hide really should have got out more.
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Tom, unless you've become grafted onto your car after all these years knowing where your car is at any given time is not quite the same as knowing where you are and what you're doing.
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Volvoman, I have nothing to hide, but I don't see why this should make me comfortable with various bodies corporate and political knowing my every movement.
As we know to our cost, systems designed to monitor movement can and do go wrong. Witness the high number of car-cloning cases and just plain incorrect issue of penalty charges in London (parking and CC related).
I simply don't trust that this won't bite us on the bum at some point in the future. There will always be a lag or drip-down of this technology through the economy, with those operating at the lower end of the economic scale unlikely to own a car equipped in this way for many years after the technology is widely introduced. Then there's the sub-set who fail to tax, register or insure their vehicle ownership. These are the people that need watching most closely and they are precisely those that will avoid the watchers. In the meantime, some talented teenager will hack the system and before you know it, details of when you leave your house will suddenly become widely available.
So nothing to hide, but a lot to fear.
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Blimey ND and I thought I was paranoid :)
Of course all of the above doomsday scenarios presume a system which works and is reliable. I can't think of any state run examples at the moment and you can always choose who you work for.
As for talented teenagers hacking systems to find out all about you - they can do that already to virtually anyone who's connected to the internet if they try hard enough can't they.
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Of course all of the above doomsday scenarios presume a system which works and is reliable. I can't think of any state run examples at the moment and you can always choose who you work for.
So it's ok, so long as it's done incompetently? ;-)
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Well HMG would know all about incompetence wouldn't they :)
If HMG wants to keep tabs on us all the system needs to be reliable of it's useless. That doesn't mean any information held by anyone isn't going to be of value to someone but we're already in that position aren't we.
I think people have far more to fear from using their internet connected PC's for personal/private use than they do from having some form of tracker in their car.
Ps as regards my extortionate demand for access to my privtae records, I was hoping you'd negotiate a little.
My demand for payment for access doesn't indicate I've got anything interesting to hide just that I'd want anyone stupid enough to want to find that out to pay for the privilege :)
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But what if he's cheating on his wife, is her lawyer entitled to discovery of the logs? Or what if it's the boss's wife he's going over the side with?
I believe this has already been done. A private investigator was hired to keep tabs on an errant husband. He was 'found out' thanks to the PI getting hold of the tracking logs from his company car. The case was featured in a TV programme about PI's aired a year or so ago.
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Bromptonaut - why do you think I work for myself? :)
Is an employer wanting to know how a member of staff uses a company owned car necessarily wrong?
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V-man - if you truly have nothing to hide in your life then can we see scans of your bank accounts, medical records etc etc please?
After all, you have nothing to fear ;-)
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Sure, for a fee of £100,000 you'd be welcome.
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Ok guys, I actually have quite abit of knowledge about this subject. I was a transport manager at a large multi national company, all our commercial vehicles had trackers fitted. We could track them 24/7, all year and produce a log for any given time during the last 12 months, this proved to be invaluable on many an occasion. Our company cars were also tracked, mine included, however, it was company policy (may have even been law, but am unsure) that the data for company cars was not to be made avliable from 6pm until 8am monday to friday and all weekend. The only time it could be used was if the vehicle was stolen.
Personally i think they are an excellent idea.
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That may have some legitimacy during business hours, but what worries my correspondent is that the car is also used (with the company's consent) for private purposes by the employee and partner, but the the tracking system is on 24/7. It's not just live tracking, 'cos the system also produces a log. My correspondent is rightly worried about the loss of privacy for their family.
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from close personal experience, i can tell you that if this kind of question is raised by employees of a particular company, they would be given three options:
1. have the car on our terms
2. provide your own car
3. find another job - there are 100 applicants for on hte rare occsion that a vacancy is advertised, if it gets to that ( most jobs are filled by word of mouth if someone retires or goes on maternity ).
but then this is a privately owned non-unionised company.
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1. have the car on our terms 2. provide your own car 3. find another job
Precisely. If a company decides to track the vehicles it provides, then we can debate the merits of that (as we have). Nevertheless, the staff have a choice.
But if HMG decides to do it, that is a different matter entirely. Telling your employer to stick it is difficult, yes, but telling your country to get lost is in another league entirely.
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HMG is not allowed to make such decisions anymore but replace HMG with EU and I take your point.
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HMG is not allowed to make such decisions anymore but replace HMG with EU and I take your point.
If only this were true - I think the country would be a lot better run if the French and Germans were in charge.
Never mind, I'm off for another spell working in Germany in two weeks time. Yippee! Good food and beer, a very civilised working environment and I'll be able to go out on the town of an evening without getting mugged, beaten up or stepping in vomit. Best of all I'll be picking up a nice pay cheque....But nobody believes me because we're all told how dreadfully bad the German economy is these days. LOL!
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Germany - well I a lot depends on which part you're talking about. I believe unemployment and social problems etc. are still far worse in what was the East.
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Germany - well I a lot depends on which part you're talking about. I believe unemployment and social problems etc. are still far worse in what was the East.
That's true. I was in Goerlitz a couple of months ago (its close to the Polish border) and it seemed pretty down at heel and a bit grim. Even so, it still compares favourably with places like inner Liverpool and Newcastle, which seem to have got really bad.
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I hadn't twigged was that this is happening already.
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how about this 3 year old article (from 17 jan 2002)
www.accountancyage.com/features/1127296
.. an embedded in-car telematics system that gave the company a complete account of every time a salesman downshifted and left a long streak of smoking rubber on the road. ....
.. screen-based graphics that could pinpoint the exact street and house where your company car was parked last night, the time at which you parked it and the time you returned to it. .....
.... far from breeching driver privacy, vehicle tracking technology will have an essential role to play in enabling companies to meet their statutory duty-of-care requirements for employees. ....
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I've had a tracking device in my truck for a long time now. reason is because of what I carry, and i've no problems with it. however, last week the old volvo went away, never to be seen again and was replaced with a 54 plate renault (still white though).
"but what about my tracker" I asked
"oh, that thing-we stopped paying the bills for it years ago"
Nice to find these things out.
WTM
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I can think of one advantage. There seems to have been a number of false speed camera results recently, where the driver has been able to show either that their car couldn't do the claimed speed, or (in the case of a trucker) that his tachograph showed he wasn't doing the alledged crime.
Being able to produce the tracker evidence might help people who were innocent prove that they were.
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Hmmm. A slight switch in the burden of proof then. Still, it may well suit Ubergruppenfuhrer Blair and his stormtroopers as they "organise" our lives for our betterment.
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As it is just a wired in box, it could presumably be put on another car to confuse they who must be obeyed..........or put on a bird.
Interesting statistic for the government to analysis. I can see the report now: "Analysis of motorists tracked at 500ft and 20 MPH speed range in the Home Counties"
I really should get out more......
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Hmmm. A slight switch in the burden of proof then. Still, it may well suit Ubergruppenfuhrer Blair and his stormtroopers as they "organise" our lives for our betterment.
Quite.
But even if you accept that it is for us to prove our innocence, this only requires the data to be available to the driver.
It does not mean that HMG et al need it.
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"And as I've said before regarding this "If you've got nothing to hide you have nothing to fear"
A slogan people have picked up of the TV no doubt. Brainwashed or what?
It isn't until you have given up all of your liberties that you realise how important they were, and the very fact you gave them up means you can't do anything about getting them back. George Orwell got everything right apart from the year.
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Did you know "George Orwell" was a pseudonym - the novelist's real name was.....
.... Blair!
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.... Blair!
Nah. Can't be. 1984 is well written.
;-)
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Even extending to your dustbins in Essex....
ECC are currently appointing 'inspectors' to visit those who have been observed not to be fulfilling their 'obligations' under the recycling scheme.
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...And in Manchester a Comunity Warden reported someone for dropping a cigarette butt (possibly from a car window - motoring link) and she was fined £50. Notice it wasn't one of a group of foul mouthed drunken chavs this warden apprehended, but a lone adult who was otherwise a pillar of the community.
Easy targets = good statistics.
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ECC are currently appointing 'inspectors' to visit those who have been observed not to be fulfilling their 'obligations' under the recycling scheme.
It's almost worth moving to Essex just to incite a visit from one in order to explain the difference between useful jobs and pointless timewasting nonentities.
I bet they have a peaked cap!
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My local council threaten this.
On the 'information card' concerning refuse collection, they tell you in no uncertain terms that one collection a fortnight is definitely enough, and that anyone putting recycleable material in the black wheelie-bin (or household waste in the green bin) will receive a visit...
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