NCAP Results - pablohoney
Is there any difference in the safety of cars with the same NCAP crash result but of different sizes? I.e does it follow that a large car with with a 4 star rating is safer than a smaler car with a 4 star rating?

Reason for asking is that I am looking at buying a car for my partner to ferry our young daughter around in and I want her to be in the safest car. She fancies a small car like an Ibiza or Fabia. Would these be any less safe than say a focus or leon? All have a 4 star NCAP rating

NCAP Results - Altea Ego
In general the bigger the car (of the same * rating) the safer it is. Its even safer if you hit a smaller car.
NCAP Results - Ex-Moderator
Take the best rated small car - I've no idea about these things, but suppose its a Corsa.

Then take a really measily rated vehicle - perhaps a large SUV.

Cause them to collide at considerable speed.

Decide which one you'd prefer to be in.

The safety ratings are all well and good, but you need to remember that essentially it is indicating whether that car is more or less safe than another similar car in the same class. Its value it massively reduced when comparing cars of different classes. (e.g. size or construction).
NCAP Results - Dude - {P}
With the ever increasing numbers of 4x4 vehicles being registered, there was a recent press report citing the rise in deaths and serious injuries arising from collisions between 4x4`s and small cars. Not too difficult to work out which vehicle group, irrespective of their NCAP star rating, will involve the higher mortalities/injuries.
NCAP Results - cheddar
Take the best rated small car - I've no idea about
these things, but suppose its a Corsa.
etc etc


Disagree, take a 5 star modern small car, i.e. a Modus, it is designed to deform in a controlled way in an accident, it has impact absorbing material all around the occupants including numerous active airbags, it has a collapsing pedal box, does not have sharp protuberances within the seats, dash etc that can contact the occupants as it deforms. I do not have readily to hand NCAP info on SUV's however I am confident that a Modus is a safer place to be than a 3, even 4 star SUV!
NCAP Results - kenl
By all means buy your partner a safe small car (Modus already mentioned looks very nice) to keep them safe but please don't buy a big tank as that makes the roads less safe for the rest of us.

Modus is 5 star, not sure if any other super-minis are yet. Plenty 5 star cars slightly bigger like Golf, Megane, new Focus.

Not sure if it is still the case but stats in the US used to cite serious injury & deaths worse in SUVs due to their poor ability to avoid accidents and also being prone to roll over.
NCAP Results - Canon Fodder

kenl said....

By all means buy your partner a safe small car.... but please don't buy a big tank as that makes the roads less safe for the rest of us.


kenl - is that Ken L, - THE Ken L!, what on earth are you doing here??
NCAP Results - Ex-Moderator
>>Disagree..............

Cheddar,

I can't see it. Assume I am in my Landcruiser and I have an accident wiht another Landcruiser. Assume its a t-bone accident where the front of one hits the other in the drivers door.

Now, as it happens it does have airbags, but nonetheless I would expect the nose of one vehicle to substantially intrude on the driver space of the other. I would expect to get hurt.

Now assume the same accident but this time my Landcruiser and a Corsa;

1) He t-bones me....

Whatever. I suppose hard enough and he might lift me up enough to tip me over, but the nose of his car is going to have hit me right in the chassis beneath my feet and he's not going to be getting anywhere near my body.

2) I t-bone him.

My front bumper, his right ear. No structure to stop me, the front of my car is coming in through his window.

So who gives a stuff which has the higher ncap rating ? Ok between a Corsa and a Fiesta it matters. Or between a Landcruiser and a Discovery, it matters. But between a biggie and a weenie ? I don't think so.

On another and different subject - as I repeatedly say; Large SUVs are as safe to drive as a car, *if* you remember that it is NOT a car and that you know what you are doing. They don't accelerate, brake or handle like a car - although they do all three better than some other vehicles. The issue in this country is not the SUV, its the prat who might be driving it. The same prat who drives a Reliant Robin, he just does more damage in an SUV.

They should bring in different licences for larger vehicles, and especially truck based vehicles.
NCAP Results - Avant
Have a look at this week's Autocar, pages 22-23.

The article agrees with RF that a 5-star Modus isn't necessarily as safe as a 5-star Laguna. It also points out - which Renault doesn't - that the base model Modus doesn't have the curtain airbags which helped the upmarket version tested to get its 5 stars.

It doesn't say, but could have, that NCAP doesn't test, or claim to test, every aspect of a car. For example it doesn't appear to penalise Renaults for the appalling rear visibility of some of its cars, particularly the Megane hatchback. This has been a problem ever since Le Sueur, or some such name, took over as head of styling. I know I'm the only one who goes on about this but I do think that blind spots can be dangerous.
NCAP Results - BazzaBear {P}
A good point Avant. I can't remember off-hand, does NCAP test for active safety at all, or is it just literally crash-testing?
What about things like braking distances, how good the ABS is, body-roll, cornering grip, the list could go on for ever.
NCAP Results - NowWheels
I can't remember off-hand, does NCAP test
for active safety at all, or is it just literally crash-testing?


Read their site :)
www.euroncap.com/content/test_procedures/introduct...p

It's only impact-testing
NCAP Results - NowWheels
Is there any difference in the safety of cars with the same NCAP crash result but of different sizes?


NCAp's anserr appears to be "yes".

Take a look at the FAQs on the NCAP website: www.euroncap.com/content/faqs/faqs.php

21. Are large cars safer than small cars?

From the laws of physics, all other things being equal, heavy cars do better than light cars when they are involved in a frontal impact. To avoid mass effects, Euro NCAP tests and compares cars within size categories. The safety of cars in a size category is not a function of mass, but it is dependent upon good design.
NCAP Results - NowWheels
oops, meant to include next the NCAP FAQ:

22. Can results be compared between groups?

Results should only be compared within the same group. The frontal testing method mirrors a crash between two similar sized cars. Clearly a bigger car has an advantage if it hits a smaller car and Euro NCAP results can?t be used to predict the outcome of such crashes.
NCAP Results - cheddar
22. Can results be compared between groups?
Results should only be compared within the same group. The frontal testing method mirrors a crash between two similar sized cars. Clearly a bigger car has an advantage if it hits a smaller

car and Euro NCAP results can?t be used to predict the outcome of such crashes.


My point was, and I only used the Modus as an example, that a 5 star small car is likely to be safer than a 3 or 4 star SUV or larger car.

In other words just because it is larger does not mean a car is guarateed to be safer.
NCAP Results - BazzaBear {P}
>> 22. Can results be compared between groups?
>>
>> Results should only be compared within the same group. The
frontal testing method mirrors a crash between two similar sized cars.
Clearly a bigger car has an advantage if it hits a
smaller
car and Euro NCAP results can?t be used to predict the
outcome of such crashes.
>>
My point was, and I only used the Modus as an
example, that a 5 star small car is likely to be
safer than a 3 or 4 star SUV or larger car.
In other words just because it is larger does not mean
a car is guarateed to be safer.

Your last sentence I can agree with, but the one before that I certainly can't. You saying "a 5 star small car is likely to be
safer than a 3 or 4 star SUV or larger car." is as much an unfounded assumption as someone else saying that "a bigger car will always be safer".

The point, as illustrated in the NCAP FAQ you've quoted, is that no tests are done between groups, so we just don't know.
NCAP have implied (but not stated categorically) that 5 stars in a larger car is better than 5 stars in a smaller car, there's no indication (because they don't know) as to where the ratings meet. Is 5 in this group equal to 4 in another? Or is it about 3.65? There's just no way of knowing, unless you do some crash testing yourself.
And all the above is only talking about general crashes, not specifically a car from one group crashing into a car of another group. Mark has spoken about that abovem, and while I think it's a slightly different issue, you have to say it's hard to disagree with his beliefs.
NCAP Results - tyro
You saying "a 5 star small car is likely to be
>> safer than a 3 or 4 star SUV or larger
car." is as much an unfounded assumption as someone else saying that "a bigger car will always be safer".
The point, as illustrated in the NCAP FAQ you've quoted, is
that no tests are done between groups, so we just don't
know.


Agree with BazzaBear. Most people probably don't realise this, and so are mislead by NCAP star ratings.

The big question is "WHY don't NCAP have a rating system that enables buyers to compare cars in different groups?

The answer that is implied in their website FAQ 21 (see above) is that they want to encourage good design on the part of manufacturers (with respect to safety) - rather than to give information to consumers.
NCAP Results - teabelly
I usually look at the pictures of the post impact cars to get an idea of how safe they might be. There can be a couple with the same star rating but one will have a kinked A pillar and another won't and they'll have different side impact results. Looking at the dummies and where they're injured, comparing front vs side impact safety are also good ideas.

The safest car is of course one that doesn't get involved in an accident in the first place so things like excellent brakes and stability control so you can swerve briskly without risking roll over might be better than actual crash survivability.
teabelly
NCAP Results - RichardW
I've said this before, but...

Instead of worrying about very small differences in perceived 'safety' levels of different cars, fork out less than £100 and a few hours of your time on an Advanced Driving course (IAM or RoSPA). The advantages this will bring (not only in safety, but also in mpg, less wear and tear (car, driver and passengers!), less stress, and more confident and comfortable driving.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people put 'safety' as their top reason for buying a particular new car, and spend many 000's of pounds in the process (esp those thaty buy 4x4 for this reason!), but the standard of their driving is lamentable to say the least.
--
RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
NCAP Results - mountainkat
It's also worth noting that whilst 4X4 may fair better in an accident they are inherently more "unsafe" when trying to avoid one - high centre of gravity = poorer stability & less control, the newest models are trying to address this with the aid of technology but the older ones certainly haven't.
NCAP Results - pablohoney
Thanks for all the comments. I agree that driving skills are a major factor in keeping safe but still feel that when choosing a car the protection it offers is still a key concern.

One thing that amazes me is that until recently the Focus didn't have ABS as standard. To me anybody who buys a new car without this must be mad! You never know when you may need it.

NCAP Results - Adam {P}
To be honest, I think ABS is overhyped. Great, you can steer IF you lock the wheels and would stop quicker IF the road was perfectly dry. It's not the be all and end all of road safety. I'd rather know how to brake correctly in an emergency than have ABS.
--
Adam
NCAP Results - mfarrow
To be honest, I think ABS is overhyped. Great, you can
steer IF you lock the wheels and would stop quicker IF
the road was perfectly dry.


Adam,

While it may not be the be all and end all of road safety, it is extremely effective when in the wet and the wheels do lock. I have felt the effect both on a skid-pan and on a motorway.

The skid-pan course was completely wet and the difference in stopping times was fanomial. The car (a V6 Mondeo) had a clever little switch to turn ABS on and off. ABS off: twice as far to stop, no steering control. ABS on: half the stopping distance, enough steering to avoid an obstruction. OK, so you might say that in that situation all you need it to be clued up about cadance braking. Great, except in a real emergency, you're hardly going to have time to think about this, you're just going to be pressing hard on the brake pedal.

The motorway incident was slightly more real and scary. In this instance, I had ABS on one front wheel but not on the other. Again, the road was wet, and I felt the car steer to one side as one side locked and the other ABSed. Had to correct with the steering wheel. Some time during the "vacation" I'll fix this with new ABS belt and modulator on the broken side, having understood how effective it is.

--------------
Mike Farrow
NCAP Results - Adam {P}
I see your point Mike - the majority of people would "panic brake" but I think too many people just think "It's got ABS - it'll be alright". I'd rather learn how to brake without locking the wheels.

I think it was said on here, the optimum braking pressure is at the point just before the wheels lock up.

I would agree with all of your argument though.
--
Adam
NCAP Results - patently
Adam,

I've tried out ABS on an airfield, in a new 911 whose brakes are powerful enough to make your eyes water. I have also had cause to use it on the road in anger(/panic).

The optimum braking effort is indeed just prior to lock-up, but I have no confidence that I could find that point reliably in adverse (i.e. typical!) conditions.

ABS also changes the rules of the game so that they are in accord with the blindingly* obvious. You want to stop: you hit the brakes. You want to stop as quickly as possible: you hit the brakes as hard as possible. Something in the way? Steer round it.

Give me ABS every time, thanks.

------------------------
*patently?
NCAP Results - Adam {P}
Good point Patently. I suppose I was saying....I don't know what I was saying really!

Yes I do - it's good, and I'd have it but I wouldn't think it would stop me dead like many people I speak to do.
--
Adam
NCAP Results - patently
Laws of physics still apply, of course.

And one thing that they say is that anything capable of literally stopping you dead would decelerate you with such force that you would be, err, dead. Literally....
NCAP Results - mjm
Adam, was it a few days ago that you locked the wheels? dig dig. the main advantage of abs is that it compensates for the natural reaction to brake like stink when you need to. In this situation driver time and attention is usually elsewhere, and cadence braking becomes "unnatural". It goes against the grain to force yourself to reduce braking effort when you need to stop asap. With abs you can "forget" braking force and look for other possible escape routes.

No vehicle is safer than the person in control of it, including putting your own vehicle "in harms way". Accidents do still happen and always will. There is a tendancy to mix up safety and survival. Most of the devices such as airbags, crumple zones etc. are survival features. Safety features help to avoid the potential accident.
NCAP Results - Adam {P}
Curses! I was hoping everyone had forgotten about that!

I completely agree with everything you've said mjm. Perhaps I'm bitter that mine doesn't have it and seemingly every M reg Cavalier and ZX seems to have it!

I really want to take my advanced driving test but am wondering if it's worth it when I want to join the Police as soon as I leave.

Fortunately (although too late if a kid jumped out straight in front of me) I remembered to ease off and then reapply but as I said - it was an eternity after my brain had sent the signal to my foot to stamp on the anchors.
--
Adam
Advanced driving test and Police - mfarrow
Adam,

I think the advanced driving test would be a good idea, it gets you into the mood for the harder stuff to come on your Police training. A better plan would be to join the Specials (if you haven't already). Though that doesn't give you driver training, you can work your way up to "blues" with no "twos" :-)

If you're planning on joining the Police the wait can be quite long. Around here (Warwickshire) you have to apply almost a year beforehand. So if your uni course ends next June apply to the Police (or at least phone up to check) this June.

--------------
Mike Farrow
Advanced driving test and Police - Adam {P}
Mike,

I've contacted them and they seemed indifferent but said to write a letter in April so that's what I'll do!

I'm seriously considering the advanced driving course though - I think your reasoning has just swayed me.
--
Adam
Advanced driving test and Police - Altea Ego
Adam

Take the advanced driving test. It may give you the edge over any other candidates who want to join.
Advanced driving test and Police - Adam {P}
Good point RF. If anyone can give me the lowdown about it I'd be grateful. I know it's about £150 but that's about it.

Cheers
--
Adam
Advanced driving test and Police - mfarrow
Adam,

goto www.iam.org.uk/Skill4life/index.php

The course you want is "Skill for life". The course is quite thorough and will take up every other Sundary morning until test time. I went through the course but didn't take the test, though I'll probably try this summer.

Every Sunday I went out with a different person, this makes perfect sence as some pick up more about your driving than others. Remember that although it will be harder than your past driving test, the examiner will be looking to pass you not fail you this time.

Good luck, and don't forget for the "Skill for life" course you get a discount for students of £10, so it'll cost you £75 which includes the course and test.

--------------
Mike Farrow
Advanced driving test and Police - Adam {P}
Cheers Mike,

Much appreciated. The more I think about it, the more I look forward to it.

Again, thanks a lot. I'll keep everyone informed as I'd always wanted to do it - I'm just greatful you've both talked me into finally doing it!

Thanks,
--
Adam