Despite the dismissive comments ..... and the irrelevant discussion about who might have been to blame and whether the doors had been cut off by the Fire Brigade, DougB's main point is sound, in my opinion.
The fact that the doors and roof appear to have been cut off is very relevant given that DougB appears to be basing his fears on the fact that the vehicle looked so bad, when in fact the damage to the Focus probably looked a lot less serious before the emergency services got to the scene.
PP
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Which is more relevant, the fact that the car looked bad or the fact that the driver lost her life?
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Are you being serious ? Who, other than you, suggested that the loss of life was unimportant or less relevant ? Thst wasn't the subject being discussed.
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Yes I am being very serious, and I never suggested that loss of life was unimportant. Try reading what I said again. I have lost family in a car crash.
OK, I'll put it simply. The first post suggested that you are safer in a 4x4, and commented on the state of the Focus after the accident. Many following comments suggested that the Focus only looked that bad because the Fire Brigade had cut off the doors. What does it matter if they did or not? The collision killed the Ford driver. You are less likely to survive such accidents in family cars compared to larger 4x4s.
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It said in the paper this morning the husband of the killed lady in the Focus was following behind her test driving a BMW along with the sales guy. Goodness knows how he must be feeling.
It also said the police 4x4 went through a red light with no lights or sirens on.
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Yes I am being very serious, and I never suggested that loss of life was unimportant. Try reading what I said again. I have lost family in a car crash.
Before this all goes off into a flaming row, I should point out that you aren't the only contributor to this thread to have lost a family member in a motoring accident. I'm not trivialising your loss, just asking you to remember that your situation is far from unique.
Anyway, back to the thread. The way I read your post gave me the same impression that Mark appears to have. Clearly we are wrong in our interpretation. Or put it another way, perhaps your post, however well intended, wasn't brilliantly clear in its construction.
In any event, let's move along from personalising this tragic incident please.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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Am I right in thinking that about 10 people get killed on roads each day, something like that - I'm aware it's a common occurrence.
"My family's safety is more important than the extra expense."
This was the conclusion of the the first post, and the first comment, unmoderated, was "get real". I am probably rubbish at expressing myself, but I don't think the discussion has actually addressed the issue of whether you buy safety when you buy a big offroader. I don't advocate them, but they do give a feeling of strength and safety, simple as that.
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I don't think the discussion has actually addressed the issue of whether you buy safety when you buy a big offroader. I don't advocate them, but they do give a feeling of strength and safety, simple as that.
Fair point.
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Phew.
Gonna be more careful what i say in future!
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Phew. Gonna be more careful what i say in future!
I could do with paying attention to that sentiment too :o)
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>> I don't think the discussion has actually >> addressed the issue of whether you buy safety when you buy >> a big offroader. I don't advocate them, but they do >> give a feeling of strength and safety, simple as that.
I just wish that 4x4 owners would leave a bigger gap when they're following me - their extra weight leads to longer stopping distances which many drivers do not seem to make a big enough allowance for.
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I too can see your point when you put it like that. But - If you flip that way of thinking on it's head - if you do buy a big 4x4 then you're possibly buying safety for yourself at the expense of possibly taking it away for the occupants of the vehicle you collide with in a 4x4 versus Car accident scenario.
Before anyone says, I'm not knocking 4x4's, just keeping the thread as on topic as possible.
PP
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Re "UK Police Driver training is the best in the world"
er no its not, it once was, but not recently
police federation, ass of chief pol officers both have major concerns with current driving standards
stats are truely terrible
hardly ever are they taken to court, i have major issues that this is allowed to continue
i have sympathy with all involved, the focus people and family, and the poor police who will be very upset
i would point the blame at the terrible institutional drop in driving training and standards across the police forces of this country
this is a general point, as obviously i know little of this individual incident
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IMHO there is no "terrible institutional" drop in training and standards. You read too many sensationalising redtops john, and are too taken in.
All emergency services are only too well aware of the bad publicity which would surround an incident as is being discussed, and go to greater lengths than they might have 10 years ago to avoid them.
This provides part of the explanation for extended motorway closures in the event of an incident.
Training is much higher on everybodys agenda these days, whether it is how to carry out pursuits safely or how to lift a box properly.
Maybe I'm wrong - please provide the links to the statements from Police Fed and ass of chief pol officers which support your view.
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Police Training Needs Radical Improvement
TODAY'S critical report by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary into the effectiveness of police training mirrors the views of the Police Federation of England and Wales.
Only last October representatives from the Police Federation gave evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee on this subject. They said inefficiency, lack of national standards, duplication of effort, lack of access to courses and inflexible learning programmes demanded a root and branch overhaul of the current system.
The Federation put forward its own proposals for radical change including the establishment of a national police university. The Home Secretary is still considering the merits of that plan.
"Today's HMIC report is a damning indictment of a training system that is inefficient, fractured, unimaginative in parts and inflexible," said Fred Broughton, Chairman of the Police Federation.
"We have long been calling for a unified system with national standards of training and accreditation. At present, most people are unaware that training varies from force to force, so standards of policing in one area can differ vastly from another. Driver training is one aspect which has caused particular public concern in recent months.
"On top of this, there is a total lack of training for most officers who wish to pursue continuous professional development.
"Access to training needs to be more imaginative and make better use of up-to-date information and communications technology which can be accessed all day, every day, not just within a 9am-5pm classroom time frame.
"We need positive intervention in police training if we are to ensure officers remain stakeholders in their own professional development and that of the service," added Mr Broughton.
Police Federation Press Release 23 April 1999
theres lots more available, this was a 30 second check
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"There is worrying evidence that the skill and judgement of some police drivers are open to question and criticism," PCA chairman Sir Alastair Graham said.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1079160.stm
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North Wales Police had a leading role in the year-long study by the Police Complaints Authority (PCA), which has described the number of deaths caused by police pursuits in England and Wales as unacceptable.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3526033.stm
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John Deacon,
In your "Police training needs radical reform" post
this is the only LINE that relates to driver training
"Driver training is one aspect which has caused particular public concern in recent months"
this to me does not state there is a problem neccessarily with it, only public concern.
All the other statements relate to police training in general.
Of course the PCA will describe the deaths in police pursuits as unacceptable - the only acceptable number will be zero.
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...and the quote is 5 years old...
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I am no BiB basher nor do I take red top headlines as gospel.
There is however concern within the public, government and police circles at the increase in police involved accidents. This it has to be said is against a backdrop of UK police drivers (that is traffic police - class 1 drivers)probably being the best in the world.
Now wether you put this down to poor training, the state of the roads, increased traffic - whatever you cant dismiss the notion that perceived standards have fallen and increasing accidents are the result.
I (without any evidence) put it down to a creeping feling within law enforcement that "traffic policing" is not a required discipline.
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Blue2 makes a good point. People must remember that however safe their cars are for the occupants, they still pose a major risk to other road users whose cars may not be so safe. All drivers need to be aware of this. Drivers of larger cars need to take on board the fact that they may need more time/space to stop in an emergency in just the same way as lorry drivers do/should. The point is that the added feeling of security created by driving larger, stronger, 'safe' cars shouldn't tempt the drivers of those cars to take additional risks and in so doing jeopardise the lives of others.
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I was going to be extra safe and buy a Ford Excursion - the biggest SUV I could find but then there's always the danger of being hit by one of these CXTs: www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/severe/c...p
Then of course there are all the HGV lorries on the road...
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Government issue Hummers for us all I say... :-)
tinyurl.com/e5oc
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Despite the content of this thread IIRC the statistics indicate that you have a HIGHER probability of dying in a car accident (as opposed to being injured) if you are in a 4X4!
Don't ask me why, could be greater chance of roll over, poorer roadholding, greater decelerations experienced becuase of rigid chassis, overconfidence of drivers because they think they are indestructible............
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I want one!!!!!!!!
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I want one!!!!!!!! --
One of those CXTs? They're so big they don't even fit in the photograph...
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I want one too!
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They claim 'outstanding fuel efficiency'.
But by who's standards?
Dan
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Nice to see they've sussed out the intellectual level of potential buyers by reminding them that if they want to use its huge towing capability they'll need to have a tow hitch fitted (at extra cost!)
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Regarding a SUV car collision, didn't Fifth Gear do a test whereby they had a head on between an SUV (Landrover Discovery type) and a normal car, and the car came off vastly worse. It was frightening and one reason I get the collywobbles when a large truck sized SUV tail gates me. That said, a major cause of death of drivers in America is an SUV overturning and killing the occupants.
Regarding deaths during police car pursuits, this came up a year or two in another thread. The papers revealed that 30 people die per year and condemned the police. Only later did someone point out that almost all of those deaths involved the people being pursued e.g. joy riders. Obviously that is still undesirable, but I suspect the police are caught between a rock and a hard place i.e. pursue and risk accusations if a crash occurs during the pursuit, or leave alone, and risk innocent people being run over.
Leif
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According to the TV listings in one newspaper watchdog (tonight 25th jan bbc1 19:00) is jumping on the anti 4x4 bandwagon
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Hi Leif nice to hear from you again. I mentioned in another thread a test involving the previous and new models of a leading MPV driven into eachother at 30mph IIRC. As you'd expect the new model survived very well whereas the model it replaced was very badly damaged and its driver would have been killed. Again IIRC the main reason for this were the structural improvements to later version which served to protect its occupants much better but caused massive damage to the other car.
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Question for you all re accidents. It was my understanding that if there were no injuries, the only legal requirement was to exchange details?
A friend had a collision with a police car a couple of years ago, nothing serious, but as it was a panda car, the driver told him that he was unable to talk to him and they both must wait until Traffic Police attend?
What exactly are the rules?
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those are the rules for police
not for public, your friends could hsve simply walked away
of course in practise if he did this he may be arrested on suspition of giving false id, or any number of other offences that the police can hold u for at the roadside
a friend of mine slid into a police car in the ice, no damage to either car, but quite spectular, police got out shook hands, and sent him on his way, they had an outbreak of common sense
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Hi Volvoman. Hope you are well. I think that is true of almost all cars, namely that more recent models are safer. I suspect that my next car might be chosen partly on the safety ratings.
Leif
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A major factor in safety is the bigger your barge, the safer you will be in an accident. I know there are many other factors to consider and I personally hate 4X4's and think they are a nuisance on our roads as they impede other motorists visibility but at they end of the day if I had the money and a family I would be happier ferrying them in a Range Rover or Volvo XC90 than a Focus.
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I think you are right that people who dislike the presence of 4x4's on our roads often end up driving them themselves for the reasons given. It's a bit of vicious cycle.
They had a crash test of a Smart Car and something bigger on Fifth Gear whereby each was sent at high speed into a concrete block. The Smart did as well as the larger car due to a well made passenger cell. However, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that the Smart is as safe. I would have thought that a larger car, even though it might allow no more and no less intrusion into the passenger cell, would provide a markedly slower deceleration (as far the passengers are concerned) due to a larger crumple zone, and hence much less internal injuries.
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They had a crash test of a Smart Car and something bigger on Fifth Gear [...]
Wasn't there (as well) a crash test where they ran a Smart and an E-class into each other, and the E-class (in terms of damage done to the vehicle) came off worse, again for the very simple reason that there was more of it to bend? I think I'd still rather be in the E-class if it all went wrong - your understanding of the purpose of crumple zones is the same as mine, and I can't see how such a small car with a very rigid structure can provide the same level of protection that a larger car would. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of engineering/physics could enlighten me.
With reference to the original post, is it not a testament to how well-engineered cars are these days that the passenger in the Focus survived? Similar accident 20 years ago and they would very likely now both be dead, and probably at least one of the people in the police car, too - not that this is any consolation whatsoever to the widower.
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Going back to the original title of the thread according to news reports it apears the police driver has been arrested for causing death by dangerous driving.
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Police persuit/response drivers walk a very fine line when responding to emergencies, not sure it's a job I would want. Bet that chap didn't think on that morning he would get done for dangerous driving on the day in question.
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Surely the whole point here is that IIRC the vehicle was not responding to an emergency.
Does anybody think in the morning that they will get done for dangerous driving later in the day?
--
pmh (was peter)
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They had a crash test of a Smart Car and something bigger on Fifth Gear whereby each was sent at high speed into a concrete block. The Smart did as well as the larger car due to a well made passenger cell. However, I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion that the Smart is as safe. I would have thought that a larger car, even though it might allow no more and no less intrusion into the passenger cell, would provide a markedly slower deceleration (as far the passengers are concerned) due to a larger crumple zone, and hence much less internal injuries.
That's exactly correct - the Smart did remain remarkably intact but they said the people in it would have been killed by the almost instant stop due to lack of crumple zone impact absrobtion.
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I see from the paper today that the police 4x4 driver was charged last night with causing death by dangerous driving and bailed to appear at Magistrates Court in a couple of weeks.
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I see from the paper today that the police 4x4 driver was charged last night with causing death by dangerous driving and bailed to appear at Magistrates Court in a couple of weeks.
Why did it take almost 6 months for the driver to be charged?
Is this case the norm or the exception?
If the former, then what exactly happens that takes 6 months?
If the later, then why is this case so different to a "normal" fatal RTA?
A lot of questions I know but I don't know anything about the legal processes in situations like this ....
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Why did it take almost 6 months for the driver to be charged?
Ok, apologies it's not 6 months - he was arrested on 1st Feb. So that makes it just over 4 months ...but that's still along time....
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To prevent any accusation of bias I believe that an investigation was carried out by another police force.This presumably takes time and I am sure the CPS would also require a bit of time to make a decision.
Perhaps our Boys in Blue in the backroom or the legal eagles can advise.
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The driver of my last fatal was charged after five and a half months. Four to five months is the average. The conspiracy theorist' can go back to bed!
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The driver of my last fatal was charged after five and a half months. Four to five months is the average.
MLC - Thank you for confirming.
So this seems to be another average case but to someone with admittedly no idea of the processes and procedures that may need to be applied - i.e me, 5 months still seems a long time between arrest and charging for a fatal RTA.
The conspiracy theorist....
Non was implied ... I simply wanted to get an insight into what happens afer a RTA and someone being charged for dangerous driving... :-)
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Non was implied?
Must be all the stuff about the EU rubbing off on me!
None was implied...
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These things take time 'nuff said. MLC is spot on. I would suggest no further discussion lest the site be involved in proceedings.
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Pug,
>I would suggest no further discussion lest the site be involved in proceedings.
Why?
This has been covered quite extensively in the media. Or were you suggesting that Chad.R may be called to mediate between Blair and Chirac?
Kevin...
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Aye - the legal status has moved somewhat now whatever the media rantings the guy deserves a fair trial as does the family of the deceased, I would hate this site to be contributary in failed hearing.
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Just to bring this thread to a conclusion - from my local paper.
tinyurl.com/ok796
It appears from another trial report in the same paper that the traffic lights were at amber or red for 11 seconds before the police 4 x 4 crossed them.Is that careless or dangerous?
Will the police authority change its rules on teaching police drivers - No - according to a local radio report today.
Are there no lessons to be learned from this?
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I feel desperately sorry for the family of the driver that was killed......
It would be very interesting to see if the judgement had been the same for a civilian driver....it certianly doesn't sound as though use of siren and lights was justified, jumping a red light definety not!!!
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