In California, or at least in San Mateo, offences by the minor result in punishment for the parent. The most common is removal of the driving licence. Apparantly it is amazing how situations concerning "uncontrollable kids" with parents who maintain "there's nothing I can do" suddenly became "controlled kids" after the parent had rememebered loads of things they cold do, all for the sake of a driving licence.
Punish the parents.
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After chewing it over, this has been removed
Hugo - BR Moderator
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The really frightening thing is that he is not the exception, just the one that got caught.
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what radio station is James Whale on these days?
i was one the original members of his club when he started on metro radio in the year dot?
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what radio station is James Whale on these days?
Talksport.
www.talksport.net/content/69.chtml
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I think there are a couple of elements to this that most of us parents hope and pray we will not need to experience.
1. That we are such bad parents that we don't care about our kids and they go ahead and get into trouble.
2. As parents we have tried our hardest, done everything in our power but peer pressure has got hold of my kids and I am helpless to do anything.
Re the first point, I remember I caught a 7 year old shoplifter at 8.15 in the morning. He had stolen crisps, apple, banana and a small baguette. Whilst waiting for the police I asked him why he was doing this. Turned out that he lived with his mum, she started work at 7am so he was chucked out the house without any breakfast at 6.45 and expected just to hang about till school opened. I made sure he got a good feed in the staff canteen whilst waiting for police to arrive. I subsequently discovered that everything he said, sadly, turned out to be true. Whose fault will it be when he is locked up at 12, 13 or whatever?
The second, I know of kids who have had all the best upbringing, have fallen into the wrong crowd and there was nothing the parents could do to change them. They just sat at home and cried. There was no help for them, no support, no nothing.
I am in no way justifying this crime or anything, I just think that it is always the easy option to look at a story at face value and not look deeper into the reasons.
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The saddest part of all is that before too long he himself is likely to be a parent, courtesy of a girl at the same end of the social scale. And so the cycle will continue, till one day the penny drops and the powers that be take a long hard look at their attitude to dealing with those who need firmer control.
Meantime, we'll just have to keep paying for better locks and alarm systems on cars and homes.
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Just in case I haven't got the drift here. Are some of the more extreme remedies being made in a serious tone? If so, what is the earliest age those making these suggestions would like to see some of these remedies carried out?
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After chewing it over, this has been removed
Hugo - BR Moderator
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wots extreme?
even on the worst council estates 20 or 30 years ago a local young male found acting agressive by the local older males would be quickly brought to check by a talking to and making it clear that they would get pushed around if they didnt see sense, if worst came to worst they could be gently taught that there is always someone bigger and stronger and louder
sadly these days as soon as someone intervenes, even the local bobby, the slightest touch is regarded as assault
so the natural order of things has been upset because the centuries old order of the older males imposing mild discipline on the youngsters has gone, its mostly just too much hassle to get involved
also sadly these days many lads are being brought up with no males in their lifes, and certainly no honest hard working role models, often they are being brought up by females, all their teachers are female etc
i know some quite hard working single mothers who struggle to control their 14 year old boys being taught only by females
so while its not PC to say we need more males in the schools, im afraid we do
and rather than handling much of this through a knackered justive system lots of these lads would benifit from some reality with some older males, a week camping with some mature bigger blokes often turns them around in a way that the justice system cannot
and of course the schools in the worst parts of the country are carp, which perpetuates this problem from one generation to the next, the only way to break a generation out of this is to give them an exceptional education, which just doesnt happen (eduction, education, education hardly)
etc
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I worked in Prisons for 32 years beginning in the 60s. As more liberal measures for reform were introduced the less effect Prison made on the offender. By the time I retired Prisons and young offenders institutions such as Detention Centres had changed from a place where no-one wanted to return to simply a resting place where they met up with old mates and conditions were better than many out in the community. As more reform and conditions got better the numbers increased dramatically.
In 1965 there were 29000 in English and Welsh prisons. By the time I retired there was around 70K.
And these numbers don?t reflect a true picture. If the same sentencing policies were in use today and with no parole the numbers would be way above 100K.
In my opinion only harsh sentencing and conditions will make any difference. There are so many people today employed in the reform and rehabilitation of criminals that it has become an industry. And these people who are educated and articulate promote the more liberal system as being the way forward when in fact it is their jobs they are promoting.
I know opinions like mine are unpopular among the supposedly more enlightened and my response has always been that we are all human beings and fear of retribution has always been the strongest factor to stop offending.
As a matter of interest have a read of one offender in the 30s
tinyurl.com/69zmq
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Alvin's post was not here when I first read the others, and my gut instinct was to agree with the measures being proposed, the more extreme the better. However, I read Alvin's post and the link attached to it and had some serious thought.
Would punishments as serious as the birching received by the 1930s borstal inmate work, or would they simply toughen up/brutailise the individual to the extent that he behaves in a similar way to others? I think it may depend on the individual involved. This punishment had the desired effect on one man, by his own admission. A cheap cost effective way to deal with a trouble maker and turn him into a model citizen would appeal, but would we get a model citizen or a mentally ill individual who would enjoy no quality of life and be a burden on society in a way neither he or others would wish?
Less drastic ideas are the bootcamps run in the US for similar offenders. These teach good old values of discipline and respect for authority. The drill of army type life giving the individual a sense of purpose appeals to me.
A friend of mine admits to having offended in a pub brawl at the age of 17. He was not a complete scroat but sailed a little close to the wind on a few occasions. His sentance was to attend a day long fitness training session once a week for 12 weeks. He told me that the night before the first day he went out on the town and had the usuall skinful. He reckoned that 'a bit of running around in a hall' wasn't going to hurt him. Boy was he wrong. With a hangover, a huge excercise drill and a sergent major type yelling commands at him, he felt very sorry for himself by the end of the day - remember he was only 17!
He went the following week, having learned far more respect for what he was about to undergo, and found he faired a little better, and so on. By the time the last session was taking place he was actually enjoying it. This programme had actually given him something that he could hang his hat on. He considered his improved fitness and sense of discipline an achievement. The Senior police officer at the centre expressed his hope that he would not see my friend there again, whereas my friend asked if he could continue the programme out of his own choice! The Senior officer was very surprised to hear this. Unfortunately the answer was no.
My friend never reoffended and settled down. He did train as a hairdresser but ended up gong into manufacturing finishing up as a production supervisor in one company then a quality inspector in another.
Another technique is to bring the individual around to a way of thinking in a more controlled way. I'm not an advocate of rewarding offenders for their bad behaviour, but some schemes that are accused of doing this do work in reducing repeat offenders as opposed to other programmes and actually cost the taxpayer less, if at all.
Some examples are, motor projects run by local charities. Essentially these are cars donated by the pulic to these workshops and offenders (after having carried out their sentances) are givent the opportunity to tinker about with vehicles and satisfy their curiosity in a controlled environment.
One experiment I watched on TV took a group of young glaswegens, who had absolutely nothing in terms of facilities etc and were ripe for the picking for a life of crime, on a camping excercise (NOT a holiday). The changes in characters for those two weeks were staggering. One young lad who wanted it all when he was back home admitted that all he wanted whilst doing a without food excercise was a cheese sandwitch! He wanted nothing else but that. The same lad was filmed panicking about one of the instructors being injured, but at the same time contributing to helping him. When he found out that it was an exercise he was hugely relieved and also furious for a short period of time.
Well there's my thoughts
H
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Bobby G
Thanks for summing up every parent's fear at (b). And of course there's a whole greyscale between those two examples of black and white.
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Well, I am usually the most reactionary force of conservatism.
Yet I cannot, for the life of me, see what good it does to ban a 13 year old from driving between the ages of 17 and 21.
What a youngster with criminal intent desperately needs is some form of a living. The opportunity to make an honest living.
Many of these tearaway youngsters come from broken homes of the sort I cannot even begin to imagine. Some of them are dragged into lawlessness through peer pressure - and indeed family pressure.
What hope has a 17 year old with a criminal record of finding himself any sort of a job? And without a driving licence he is denied any sensible job, as no doubt public transport is insufficient.
Yes, obviously he requires some sort of taming (and it is not for me to suggest how (and probably not for this site to debate)). But to tell a 13 year old that the first four years of his adult life (which is 33% older than he is at the moment) will involve a driving ban? What sort of effect is that likely to have? He won't care & will carry on driving whilst under age anyway. The only point when it will sink in is when he reaches 17. Then whilst his peers are able to mod-up their Fiesta 0.9s, he is banned from driving.
Better to ban a 13 year old from eating chocolate for a month, than to ban him from driving. Something with immediate effect.
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Well, I am usually the most reactionary force of conservatism. Yet I cannot, for the life of me, see what good it does to ban a 13 year old from driving between the ages of 17 and 21. What a youngster with criminal intent desperately needs is some form of a living. The opportunity to make an honest living. Many of these tearaway youngsters come from broken homes of the sort I cannot even begin to imagine. Some of them are dragged into lawlessness through peer pressure - and indeed family pressure. What hope has a 17 year old with a criminal record of finding himself any sort of a job? And without a driving licence he is denied any sensible job, as no doubt public transport is insufficient. Yes, obviously he requires some sort of taming (and it is not for me to suggest how (and probably not for this site to debate)). But to tell a 13 year old that the first four years of his adult life (which is 33% older than he is at the moment) will involve a driving ban? What sort of effect is that likely to have? He won't care & will carry on driving whilst under age anyway. The only point when it will sink in is when he reaches 17. Then whilst his peers are able to mod-up their Fiesta 0.9s, he is banned from driving. Better to ban a 13 year old from eating chocolate for a month, than to ban him from driving. Something with immediate effect.
I was hoping to keep to driving and driving suspensions ? otherwise it will get the Mods in action.
My original point was that it is highly unlikely that someone with his background will respect his driving ban. So he gets caught again ? resulting in a longer custodial sentence and even longer driving ban.
Short of locking him away for life, I suspect he will keep on offending.
For the reasons Mapmaker gave, is a driving ban something of an own goal for Society?
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Banning the banned? How many times is this sort of thing going to happen before something is done to sort out people like this? Lock them up for 3 months! Give them one chance and if they do it again bang 'em up. Not somewhere nice and comfortable, somewhere where if they don't act responsibly all they get to eat is bread, milk and a vitamin pill.
For those tempted to do it again add their sentence to the new one and so on. This should apply to adults as well as kids like this.
Whilst is some cases it may work, punishing parents could cause all sorts of problems for those who for legitimate reasons can't properly control their offspring or in cases where their offspring decide to deliberately act in a such a way as to get their parent(s) in trouble.
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Would agree entirely with you VV. Prisons are nothing like many think?In the 80s Governors were almost competing with each to run the most comfortable liberal environment possible.
At one of these where I worked the Governor bought mountain bikes to allow them to enjoy a ride round the country lanes. The PEIs (physical education Officers) used to take them walks in the peak district. When we ragged them about this they would laughingly use the jargon of the day which was that it allowed the inmate to examine his inner self. Yes they had jumped on the bandwagon as everyone else was doing as it got them out for the day.
And believe it or not inmates working out, many of them lifers were allowed their own cars to travel to and from work. Park up in the staff car park on return and retire to their own room. All with colour TV. Amenities of snooker rooms, library and anything they desired.
And then the absurdity of the Prison Inspectorate visiting and meeting inmates who would line up to complain and then compiling a report, giving the Chief Inspector the opportunity to appear on TV condemning the prison as not complying in many areas.
Previously all inmates were required to work..A raft of legislation some emanating from the European courts and others from H&S bought an end to this.
We finished up bringing mechanical diggers to dig trenches or foundations.. private contract cleaners were bought in at night. Kitchen cleaning went private as inmates were not allowed to work above two metres for H&S and so on.
A boot camp as suggested would only work if Boards of Visitors, Visiting Magistrates, Prison visitors, Probation and Welfare, Reform groups Television documentary teams, and every other man/woman and their dog were kept out. And then yes I believe it would?
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Not that this has much to do with motoring . . .
but I think that Mark is basically right when he speaks about targetting parents. After all, parents are responsible for 13 year olds.
However, I suspect that in a lot of cases, it won't work - in many of these caess, simply because it will be a case of "which parents?" What do you do with the lad whose mother has had a succession of partners, none of whom are around for very long?
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"His solicitor Mike Gee, said: "He feels he has let himself and his family down and there has been no offending since the last matter." "
This is ludicrous. Perhaps a little attention to how solicitors are remunerated would be appropriate.
The report in my newspaper stated that the accused looked quite upset when he realised that he was to be "banged up". Generally the magistates have no powers to deal with such situations and quickly shuffle them out.
I was born and brought up in the area. Nobody would have dreamt of getting up to mischief such as that. If the owner didn't deal with it the police certainly would.
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I am delighted to advise that Judge Finestein is a close personal friend and his daughter babysits for us. A very charming man who would not hurt a flea and is very consciencious about his behavoir and morals. It is my honour to know him.
Therefore this lad must have been something truly evil for John to do what he did. I just hope the lad learns something from it, although it would be better if the Government funded a proper way a taking unruly children away from their parents and teaching them how to live in our society without ruining it.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I would be quite happy to see a rise in income tax (say 2p in the £) to pay for extra prisons, police on the streets etc.
Give offeners longer scentences with no parole, it has become beyond a joke nowadays with gangs of young teenagers sticking two fingers up at the system because they know they are untouchable in the eyes of the law.
Individuals like this boy will only grow up into useless thugs and dole spongers. I agree strongly that parents should be punished as well.
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dont think u necessarily need more police, but the ones of the coal face need more support, ability to do the right thing not forced down a pedantic politically correct line, and leadership of police forces like most of the public sector is dire and wasteful
also teachers need some basic powers back
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There are several less emotive ways of making your point that will not attract our attention. Unfortunately for you, you chose none of these, so your words of wisdom have gone.
I think you know what I mean:)
Arguing that giving teachers more powers will enable them to cane 5 year olds.........honestly! I won't divulge the other rubbish you put.
Let's keep this discussion sensible please.
Hugo - BR moderator
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I am quite taken aback that someone can suggest (seriously I think) that this boy should be shot (and others killed at birth perhaps), and there is no censure, yet when I consider that such actions are akin to the practices of one of the most evil empires ever to rule on this earth, my posting is removed.
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Machika
There are several who would agree with your post, however, there are people here who would perhaps take offence at the comparison you made, not because they don't agree with it but some of the older generation still see your comparison as a very real and horrific deed.
I did not remove it but I suspect that is why it has gone.
If I had removed it. It would have been the first time I had moderated in order to soften the blow of what many would feel needed to be said, rather than to remove a post that as simply needless and offensive.
No disrespect to you was intended, I am sure.
Hugo - BR Moderator
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The comparison was meant to be very real and horrific, as I consider suggesting that a 13 year old (or anyone, for that matter) should be shot for this kind of offence is horric too. As for the idea that some children should be culled at birth, that is pretty horrific too. It is OK to say those kind of things is it?
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As for the idea that some children should be culled at birth, that is pretty horrific too. It is OK to say those kind of things is it?
Machika
You are pointing to kneejerk reations by a few of the posters above, which were in for a day or two, but have now been deleted
As I have pointed out above, this thread (and this forum) is now closed to such kneejerk reactions and open to sensible discussion.
Hugo - BR Moderator
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I am glad to see that they have at last been removed. Thanks.
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