Caught at the front of the queue waiting for the traffic lights to change this morning, I asked my other half if he wasn't going to be nice to the clutch by letting it up, given that we knew we had quite a wait before we could go.
He said it didn't do the clutch any harm to keep it fully depressed.
Is this right? Explanations in layman's terms please and no sexist comments: just because I gave up physics a long time ago doesn't mean I have no brain.
AND, we have to reverse down a steep drive to get onto the road. (Yes I know we should reverse on but if we do that we crunch the undercarriage on the road: steep and awkward camber!) I usually do the first bit in neutral because I don't need any acceleration and I can then give all my concentration to the brake and the mirrors, rather than having to think about the clutch as well. I know if my foot slips off the brake there is nothing to stop me, but if I was in reverse gear would the situation be any better?
In anticipation ...
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Sue
Covered recently on the site. General conclusion - sitting in traffic with the clutch depressed simply gives the clutch release bearing an unecessarily hard time, and also to some extent wears the clutch.
Clutch release bearing replacement requires as much dismantling and labour as replacing the clutch, so it's best to use neutral as much as possible.
Regards
JS
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Some years ago when I took my test my driving instructor claimed that it wasn't a problem keeping the clutch pressed down, although in later life I understand that it can cause wear and tear, I suggest an Automatic, problem solved before it gets too intense and you end up in Court arguing about your divorce rights. Mind you my experience tells me women win anyway! And if you've got children just get the CSA involved. Come to think of it if I were your husband I would just accept what you are saying!
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just tell your bloke that you read the backroom and he doesnt.
so you know better than him so there.
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markymarkn wrote:
>
> just tell your bloke that you read the backroom and he doesnt.
>
> so you know better than him so there.
To which his response was "Just because I don't feel the need to post every day doesn't mean I'm not reading it." I can only agree (tho' he doesn't enjoy it as much as I do).
We're not arguing about it. After all, when the clutch needs replacing it won't be me who has to find time to take it to the garage!
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Sue, you ought to know this,
A woman has the last word in any argument.
Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument,
;-)
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No, no, I *ALWAYS* have the last words in an argument.
Of course, they are usually along the lines of "Sorry, I'll do it right now", but they are the last words, and they're mine.
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Sue,
John is right about the Release Bearing wear.
On your other subject, the only thing which springs to mind is that you will roll out into the road without power. Therefore, if you get out there and suddenly you need to get out of the way of something, its going to take some time for you to put it in gear and move.
I could even believe that you could roll backwards with the car in 1st, if that is appropriate for whichever way you are most likely to need to dodge.
M.
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Mark (Brazil) wrote:
> On your other subject, the only thing which springs to mind
> is that you will roll out into the road without power.
> Therefore, if you get out there and suddenly you need to get
> out of the way of something, its going to take some time for
> you to put it in gear and move.
>
> I could even believe that you could roll backwards with the
> car in 1st, if that is appropriate for whichever way you are
> most likely to need to dodge.
But I would need to have the clutch down - at least partially - throughout the operation whether I was in first or neutral, wouldn't I? And if I was in first but wanted to go backwards quickly, I'd be no better off than being in neutral. Unless I'm missing something. I do have the engine on!
The manoeuvre we have to carry out is backwards down steep drive, avoiding two brick walls which curve in at the bottom, then swing left to end up facing downhill. (We usually want to go in the opposite direction, but there are often cars parked tight to the right so it's easier to drive a few yards to the end of the road, which is very wide, and do a U-turn round the traffic island.)
Apart from not wanting to wear the clutch out, my reasoning goes that if I have the car in neutral there is only one way I can go initially, ie backwards, and one way to stop, with the footbrake. Therefore only one foot to worry about. Even if the brakes fail I can't roll uncontrolled into the road because the camber will stop me - or at least slow me considerably, giving me time to get the handbrake or a gear into play.
Because of the parked cars further up the hill and the width of the road at this point - could take a dual carriageway - we'd be very unlucky to have to get out of someone's way in a hurry. We leave the car on the street during the day, so it's only getting out of a morning which is a problem. The boy racers aren't usually up by then ...
I haven't explicitly run my logic past my other half yet - thought I'd try it on you chaps first - but I let him get the car off the drive whenever I can. I know, as a mere woman, my spatial awareness works differently to his ...
Thanks for the other helpful comments: I think he's outvoted!
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I think the question about wear to the clutch has been covered. But I'm worried about this rolling backwards in neutral business. As far as I'm concerned, the only time a car should be in neutral is when the handbrake is fully on. I appreciate that you've got a difficult manoeuvre to accomplish, Sue, but even so you'd be well to get used to doing it with your foot on the clutch. Imagine this situation:
You're rolling down your drive, engine running, box in neutral, controlling speed with footbrake. You get a sudden attack of cramp in your right calf; or, your child vomits on the back of your neck; or, your neighbour's cat jumps out of the ornamental cherrytree onto your bonnet; or, you have a heart attack. What happens? No more braking, so down you go -- at best into the wall at the bottom of the drive, at worst into the mum with two toddlers and a baby in a stroller on the pavement. But if you also have your car in gear, foot on clutch, when you lose contact with the pedals you'll stall and the car will stop dead. (Especially if, as Mark suggests, you are in fact in first at the time.)
I hope it doesn't take a heart attack to show the sense of this, Sue. We need you here!
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Martyn, Back Room moderator wrote:
> You're rolling down your drive,
[snip]
> But if you also have your car in gear, foot on
> clutch, when you lose contact with the pedals you'll stall
> and the car will stop dead. (Especially if, as Mark suggests,
> you are in fact in first at the time.)
Right! Having made a perfect descent this morning in neutral, I shall now experiment with the gears.
But I'm still trying to work this out. I know if you leave your car in gear on a steep hill this helps if the handbrake fails or is dodgy. I've never quite known if it makes a difference whether you are facing up or down hill. If I stall and lose the footbrake at the same time, I really won't keep rolling backwards? There's a limit to what I want to find out by trial and error.
> I hope it doesn't take a heart attack to show the sense of
> this, Sue. We need you here!
Thank you so much!
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Not so sure about release bearing wear, after all, it is a bearing, of the same construction as those used on the wheels, amongst other things. We quite happily do 100K miles on the wheels without feeling guilty about bearing wear, so a few minutes on the clutch won't prove fatal.
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Further point - If you're sitting in traffic and get rear ended, in gear, foot on clutch - you're not going to be pushed in to the vehicle in front, you're going to drive into..........
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Dave N - I'm not sure what your point is. I had bearings on my skateboard wheels but I wouldn't use the same for a wheel bearing. Different bearings have vastly different tolerances and hence lifetimes.
The release bearing is prone to failing (noisy when clutch depressed) as it is only specified to operate for an average frequency of total operation. i.e. you drive on the motorway all day every day - your release bearing will not have to work very hard. You sit in a traffic jam on Bathwick Hill in Bath for 5 hours a day and your release bearing will not last long.
So, Sue - it is best to take the box out of gear and release the clutch (with handbrake applied!) for anything over a minute or so. A young lady friend used to use the clutch in my old 160,000mile Golf as a quick and easy handbrake - the clutch, release bearing and gearbox did not last as long as our ill-fated relationship.
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The point is, it's a bearing designed to take a load, as all bearings are, therefore it is only doing it's job when the clutch is in. As long as it is specified properly, such that it can take the load, then it shouldn't wear out to quickly.
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Dave
Yes and no. The problem is that compared to a clutch release bearing, the design life of most bearings is easy to define. A wheel bearing, for example, has a pretty well defined load pattern - it's in use all the time the vehicle moves, and will be loaded within parameters defined by the weight, performance and ability of the car. A total hooligan will wear it out qucker, but an average driver and hence bearing life can be estimated. Clutches are different - the use varies between the 'mostly in city congestion', where it's always used, to the 'high mileage motorway driving' rep. where it covers huge mileages with hardly any use.
Given the cost and difficulty of replacement, it's worth taking the extra bit of care of it while you can to maximise it's life - it's one of the components of the car where that is possible.
regards
JS
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Isn't there also the point that this bearing takes the load on its side, rather than on what is more normally one of its running surfaces ?
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Mark
The clutch release bearing is usually a true thrust bearing, rather than an end loaded ball race, so that isn't the problem.
Regards
JS
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Makes no difference whether your facing up or down or leave it in first or reverse, even. By leaving a stationary car in gear it means that the wheels are effectively connected to the engine, and the engine won't easily turn due to the compression in the engine's cylinders. Don't forget to put it in neutral when you start though, as you're supposed to - although some people do start it in gear BUT with the clutch own - this you're NOT supposed to do. If you stall and lose the footbrake, then you apply the handbrake, take your foot off the throttle and concentrate on steering it somewhere safe, leaving it in gear with the clutch UP (engaged) - this gives you what is called "engine braking". Experiment somewhere SAFE, it'll increase your confidence.
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I should have also said.......Don't forget that the brakes on all modern vehicles only work properly with the engine running. If you coasted downhill with the engine off, the brakes would still work a bit BUT you would have to press VERY hard on them to make them work. This is what is meant by "power assisted brakes". Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here - apologies if so.
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KB wrote:
>
> Hope I'm not teaching my grandmother
> to suck eggs here - apologies if so.
I do understand that you need to have the engine running to get the full benefit of brakes and steering: I read the manual, you see! ;-)
But I am not offended by your explanations: sometimes, as is shown by other posts, these things need to be spelled out - for those who didn't read the manual and for those who read it so long ago they forgot what it said!
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The explanation of a clutch thrust bearings duty was accurately described by John Slaughter, thank you John.
Mechanical demands on the unit depending on driver and driver conditions will vary hugely, and because it is normally expensive to access for replacement, the unit needs to be loved a little. In addition to the previous discussion, the pressure plate assembly of a clutch mechanically "ages" to some degree, and the loads on the clutch pedal will progressively increase over time causing additional load on the clutch thrust bearing.
Vauxhall Cavaliers and Astra's of the early/mid 90's had the designed facility to access and replace the thrust bearing and clutch without removing the engine, however the access plate for its removal for some potty reason was not sealed, and can easily let in water when driving in flooded conditions. Too much of this eventually knackers the thrust bearing.
I guess I would prefer to be in gear Sue as regards the exit from your home, however I recognise that the engine will be running faster when starting from cold, so some nimble footwork is called for.
Keep contributing please, two of the three ladies in my family are suprisingly switched on re the car and its everyday problems. My wife often suprises the males in the office.
Julian
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Thank you chaps one and all. I'm not going to pretend I understand how the clutch works, but tomorrow I will put the car in gear before making my cautious descent. Tonight I deliberately stalled at the top of the drive (in first) to see what would happen: no roll-back (although it's not very steep there).
I know I am not yet confident in this car on this drive but I hope I never get to the stage where I hurtle out backwards the way some of my neighbours do!
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One thing my driving instructor taught me to do when making a right turn facing up hill was to raise the clutch a little (foot off the accelerator) until the revs dip and the car will "hang". A touch of accelerator and a slight lift of the clutch will make the car pull away smoothly. If your foot slips the car stalls, so no rolling back. Works best if you have a rev counter, and even easier in a diesel, but anything will do. Makes hill starts in tricky situations very easy once you learn it, since there's no messing around with the handbrake, so two hands on the wheel.
Chris
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