I see both sides of the argument but problem is how do you legislate against slow lorries overtaking.
Deciding on an arbitrary figure such as less than 30 seconds to complete the manoevre is possible but given the amount of traffic cars around it's just unworkable.
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I recall that this question was addressed in the Motoring Telegraph a couple of weeks ago. It seems that France (and probably other countries)have a traffic rule that restricts lorries to the inside lane on dual carriageways and motorways during the morning and evening rush hours.
Sounds a simple and sensible solution - so of course it won't be applied over here....
P.
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"Trucks should be restricted to the inside lane..."
Imagine being on a tight schedule in your 42 tonner and following flat cap in his Rover at 35mph on the inside lane.
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GIM, well put! Gives the lie to the matey image of truckers all noshing up together in the transport caf. Do they feel no shame or embarassment at spending 5 minutes on an overtaking manoevre?
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Maybe some of them need a re read of the highway code - section 144 -
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.
especially the bit about slowing down if necessary. I know they have schedules to meet and momentum takes time to build up but surely slowing down by 2 or 3 mph wouldn't be too bad a hit.
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It's an argument that's been had many times before on here.
Yep, Groundhog day has come around again ;o)
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Maybe it been done before, it still makes me seeth tho, the A14 being the worse place on earth for this. And why do lorries insist on barging out into a gap thats not there until they make it so to start this tortous 15 minute object in road hoggery.......
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They move into a gap that isn't there because they can't see a vehicle is in it as they often have very large blindspots. Perhaps radar controlled cruise control on lorries could be in force in certain hours so they had to maintain decent gaps to vehicles in front.If you make sure that the cruise control won't let the lorry accelerate fast enough without having a decent speed differential then you'll stop the behaviour. You could have it so that when a lorry approached a vehicle to it's left with not enough differential the cruise control would slow the lorry down so it would always be unable to get passed. I am not sure how this would function in an urban environment. Perhaps it should only be operative above 45 mph and minimum of 5 mph speed differential.
Limiting them to the inside lane might create a problem when someone wants to merge from a slip road The lorry can't move out and if they are packed tightly together then someone has to give way. It will be the lorry on the sliproad and you'll have chaos. Or neither will and you'll have a pile up.
teabelly
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Limiting them to the inside lane might create a problem when someone wants to merge from a slip road The lorry can't move out and if they are packed tightly together
What? Lorries packed tightly together? Surely not......
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Change the speed limit for cars and lorries to 50mph on motorways. End of problem!
Hopefully the government aren't monitoring this page....
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"Whats going on? Why do lorries with a speed advantage of 0.0001 mph insist on overtaking the lorry in front?"
They're demonstrating to us the stupid 56mph limit law imposed on them by EUrocrats.
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That doesn't make any difference. They'd behave the same at 60, 70 or 170 mph.
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Why do lorries push out into a space that isn't there?
Easy - because as a car driver you need to make absolutely sure that you get past any pair of lorries, in case one pulls out to overtake and keeps you there for half an hour while they finish overtaking.
If lorries were more considerate to us, then perhaps they'd get let out more.... Of course, to tempt them not to pull out, we'd need to start being more considerate to them....
If you really want to annoy a lorry driver then wait until he pulls back into lane 1 (i.e. sometime next Tuesday), then overtake, move over, and gently lift the right foot. As you slow down, his temper rises...
Seriously, I had to drive home from work early last week as I wasn't well. I couldn't make progress in lane 3 as per usual and was chugging along in lane 1 at the best safe speed I could manage. It was hard work, made harder by the sheer level of abuse vented at me by truckers who wanted me to speed up.
Thanks guys, you really helped. Let me know where you are and next time I'm that ill I'll look you up...
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They're demonstrating to us the stupid 56mph limit law imposed on them by EUrocrats.
Yeah, keeping them a whole 4mph below the limit must make a massive difference.
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>> It's an argument that's been had many times before on here. Yep, Groundhog day has come around again ;o)
Has anyone noticed that a lot of people seem to be using their mobile phones in cars? And tailgating... ;)
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>> >> It's an argument that's been had many times before on >> here. >> >> Yep, Groundhog day has come around again ;o) >> >> Has anyone noticed that a lot of people seem to be using their mobile phones in cars? And tailgating... ;)
No, but there are one or two hundred people driving around with their side lights and front fog lights switched on ;o)
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No, but there are one or two hundred people driving around with their side lights and front fog lights switched on ;o)
All 4x4s, are they?
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Looks like this is becoming the Friday thread.........
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So, the friday afternoon target so far seem to be:
a 4X4 lorry with its sidelights and front fog lights on, while the drivers talks on a mobile phone as he tailgates a car with an ill driver.
Isn't there still something mising? Surely the complete backroom friday would involve at least a few sp-camearas, a gratuitous swipe at some randomly-chosen brand of car, and some more bad puns?
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Sounds good to me - more story line and meaningful content than a weeks worth of soaps!
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Isn't there still something mising? Surely the complete backroom friday would involve at least a few sp-camearas, a gratuitous swipe at some randomly-chosen brand of car, and some more bad puns?
It's a Merc lorry. Blind brand loyalty at its worst :o) Gets away with speeding because its so long the cameras just take a photo of its side*.
Can't help with the puns, though. Others are no doubt better qualified.
*actually, does anyone know how they cope with this? ;-)
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It's also raining and he's got his rear foglights on.
And his front brakes are worn out, as he's too stingy to pay to replace them.
the only place worse than the A14, RF, (as it's fairly flat there aren't the nasty surprises for the drivers) is the M11.
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Agreed MM - the M11 is diabolical for this.
I once sat fuming behind two lorries on the two lane bit all the way between Duxford J10 and Cambridge J11 where I turned off - How far is that ? 10 miles or so IIRC.
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sitting at 1 mph less than cruising-speed behind another lorry adds up to X hours over a long journey,
Does it though? Take say a 300 mile journey. If you maintain a constant 56 for all that way you will take 5 hours 22 minutes and 25 seconds. Slowing to 55 mph would mean the journey would be 5 hours 27 minutes and 16 seconds.
So, even over a journey such as Preston to Portsmouth, slowing by 1mph would cost you under 5 minutes. The speed differential is much less than this in many cases so you are talking seconds rather than minutes saved, at the expense of accidents, significantly worse delays and wasted fuel for car drivers...
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Spoken like a true politician.
Constant speeds are meaningless given todays traffic density, if what you meant to say was average speed then fair enough.
However, most folk aren't concerned about their average speed, they just see two lorries stopping a whole queue of cars trying to maintain 70mph at least.
Add to that the PFD's who then maintain 70 up to the inside lane lorry and then shoe-horn into the queue and the situation gets worse.
Factor that delay in to all the cars who's average speed was reduced and the lorries 5 minute potential gain becomes somewhat insignificant.
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Lorries are allowed to overtake, motorways are a freight network and so as we private motorists we should accept one lorry passing another. It can still be annoying, mind you! Not a lot, just a little.
Like I posted on another thread, When a driver pulls out to pass another lorry on a motorway incline, he doesn't necessarily know the gearing, the load or the power of the other lorry. It could be travelling slower than him but on the incline his vehicle runs out of puff where the other one doesn't. If he aborted his overtake and slowed to pull back in behind the other lorry, he might cause more didruption than if he keeps going.
Cheers, B55
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It is not just one lorry passing one other lorry though. There are often several lorries passing one lorry, or one lorry passing several lorries, so the delay is multiplied by however many lorries there are. This manoeuvre can take miles to complete. Then, of course, if there is another lorry a little further on, the lorry driver won't pull in until he has passed that one, and so on and so forth. That is one of the reasons we have mile after mile of slow moving traffic on our motorways and dual carriageways. Seems like limiting them to the inside lane at certain times would be worth trying. Don't they also have limitations at weekends in some countries?
There is too much freight moved long distances on our roads anyway, but that is a another subject.
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Having spent the last 24 years of my working life working for a truck component manufacturer, I just curb my impatience and calmly wait until the manoeuvre has been completed. In effect truck manufacturers, operators and drivers have all played their part in keeping me gainfully employed for 24 years, and in this day and age of high unemployment that it not something to be sniffed at. Patience, and a modicum of sympathy for the trucker who is merely trying to earn his wage, is all that is required.
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L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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If there is too much freight moved long distances on our roads, who's to say there aren't too many people travelling long distances by road too?
Cheers, SS
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Definitely too much freight being moved.
I hate it when I go to the shops and they have lots of stock in. I prefer it when I can't buy any food.
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Definitely too much freight being moved. I hate it when I go to the shops and they have lots of stock in. I prefer it when I can't buy any food.
Kindly release my goat sir, for you've got it.
Baby sweetcorn from Zambia?
Mangetout from Kenya.... In December?
Cranberries from North America 24/7?
Lamb from New Zealand?
So we need these products to be available 24/7/365 do we? What happened to seasonal buying of local produce and judicious use of the freezer? Food Miles are going to strangle this planet, but not before I strangle the next spokesperson from Tescburyways telling us that they "only provide these goods because of customer demand". So who created the blessed demand in the first place? The chuffin' supermarkets, by stocking this load of pink fluffy dice in the first place!
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So we need these products to be available 24/7/365 do we? What happened to seasonal buying of local produce and judicious use of the freezer? Food Miles are going to strangle this planet, but not before I strangle the next spokesperson from Tescburyways telling us that they "only provide these goods because of customer demand". So who created the blessed demand in the first place? The chuffin' supermarkets, by stocking this load of pink fluffy dice in the first place!
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My sentiments exactly. I also wonder about the logic of saying that we musn't be concerned about something, because it is providing people with employment. As you say, No Dosh, we are getting to the point where moving things (and people), from point A to point B, is going to be the death of this planet. Then again, I am only a scaremonger, so I realise that my opinion has no substance.
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There are 2 sides to the argument - one can see some aspects of lorry use as mobile warehousing, as is the case in that recent buzzphrase of 'just-in-time' deliveries. But does that mean more lorries on the road, since the goods need to be moved anyway?
Moving fruit and veg half way round the world might seem like waste of energy, but is that necessarily so? It might be brought back here as a back load on a freight flight that would otherwise return here empty, then be transported half way across the country in a fridge lorry that would have been making that journey anyway, but also empty!
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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The other day I bought Braeburn apples from New Zealand, they would have to be from the moon to come ant further away.
I take your point, but it's all still market forces. In the high street where I live is a lovely shop that sells local meats and eggs and all sorts of other produce. I'd shop there all the time, but it opens 9 to 5:30 and I and the wife work for a living, so we go to Tescos at 7:30 when we get home...
(If they understood this they would open later, get more business and afford to pay for the extra staff to open late in the first place)
...and if we are in the Supra I park across two bays.
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>Does it though? Take say a 300 mile journey. If you maintain a constant 56 >for all that way you will take 5 hours 22 minutes and 25 seconds. Slowing to >55 mph would mean the journey would be 5 hours 27 minutes and 16 >seconds.
So surely if that is the case on the average motorist's journey (less than 300 miles) the difference between two miles at 56mph and two miles at 70mph is just 25 seconds. Wow that made a REAL difference to life the world and the universe.
I've done the journey to uni at 90mph on clear roads late at night and averaged near 80mph (only once) and it took me 1hr 45mins from Sussex to Warwick. I've done the same journey trying to keep 85-90 in traffic, it takes 2hrs normally by this method and the car gets about 45mpg. Or I can drive trying to keep 65-70, I normally average about 60mph and 60mpg, it takes about 2hrs 10 mins normally but uses less fuel in the process. Even cruising at 65, over long motorway journey distances you can average nearly 60mph, and that is to be fair pretty quick on the congested roads of the country when the speed limit is only 10mph higher.
Oh and no I don't have a flat cap, yes I drive a fast car, yes I'm under 25, and I'm also one of those irritating people who will let out a lorry that needs to overtake. It takes maybe 5 seconds for you to get back from 56 to 70mph, if the lorry is a fully laden 38-tonner or even a fully laden 7.5ton baulked down to 50mph on a hill by a slower vehicle it can take minutes to get back to cruising speed. What people fail to realise is that commercial vehicles have precious little overlap between gears, so you can't drop down for more power without over revving. e.g. 60mph is right on peak torque/power in 5th, drop to 55mph and the lorry will loose speed further as peak power is less, but you can't drop to 4th because at anything above 48mph the engine is over the power peak and will loose speed till it reaches said peak again.
Chris
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Re speed and journey times:
Every few months for the last 20 years I've made the journey from Somerset to Suffolk, via the A303/M3/M25/A12or M11. The journey usually takes between 4 1/2 and 5 hours, at a steady pace. I've had various cars over the years, but the quickest I ever did the trip was in an Austin Allegro! I wasn't driving fast, it was just that I was able to maintain 70 mph most of the way, which is unusual.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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Wow that made a REAL difference to life the world and the universe.
Very few drivers get the point of how little difference speed makes on your average journey. My ex was always on at me to 'go zoom' on a Sunday morning to get to church on time for ringing. One day I deliberately went very steady despite her increasing prodding and had a very self-satisfied expression when we arrived there early... Unless you really are in a time-critical journey then there is very little to be saved by pushing on and lots to be lost or wasted in terms of fuel, wear and tear etc.
I'm also one of those irritating people who will let out a lorry that needs to overtake.
You mean doing so is optional? IMEx the choices are either get out of the way PDQ or get shunted in to the next lane...
On a similar theme for a rant, why can lorries not wait until the 'derestricted' board before accelerating from roadworks? Had one the other day who sat about a foot from my bumper through the 40 limit on the M6 then when the board came in sight decided to overtake meaning I had to wait until he'd got past before I could accelerate and then didn't actually wait to get past before he pulled back in, forcing me on to the hard shoulder. I'd been gradually accelerating myself as sitting at 40 is a pain but it wasn't enough for him...
It takes maybe 5 seconds for you to get back from 56 to 70mph, if the lorry is a fully laden 38-tonner or even a fully laden 7.5ton baulked down to 50mph on a hill by a slower vehicle it can take minutes to get back to cruising speed.
It may only take you seconds but wastes fuel. However, we aren't discussing lorries stuck behind considerably slower ones here, we are talking ones that have a very marginal speed advantage and still insist on pulling out and taking an age to pass. In the scheme of things it makes very little difference and there is certainly no need for that sort of thing when the road is already very busy and congested.
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Very interesting thread this.
As one of the country's Knights of the road,I can tell you a true story that happened to me a few years ago.
I was coming down the A1 from Gateshead in a hired 38 Tonne artic empty,when,at Chester-le-Street,I happened upon another artic,that appeared to be loaded.
As we were side by side,and starting up the incline towards Durham,I,for one reason or another,was unable to get passed him.He held me there for about a mile or so,when from out of nowhere,came Mr.Plod,down the hard shoulder,in his car.Suddenly,the lights went on,and he gesticulated for me to pull over onto said hard shoulder,and when I did so he promptly got into my cab.
The conversation then went along the following lines:
Officer:Do you know how long you were alongside that other vehicle?
Me:No.
Officer:It was about 1.35897456321 miles.
Me:I never noticed.
Officer:Do you realise that you were obstructing other motorists?
Me:I was trying to overtake him,but he wouldn't let me passed.
Officer:You could end up in court on a charge of ?*?*?*?*?*?* (I can't remember what it was.)
Officer,(Now getting miffed):Would you like it to go to court?
Me:But you tell me where in the Highway Code it says I can't overtake another vehicle.
Officer:Would you like to take your chance in court?
Me:I'll see you in court then.
Officer,(Now realising what I had said about overtaking):Well,let this be a warning then.(Then gets out.)
Yes,vehicles running alongside another do cause congestion,and can be a pain in the rear,and as you can see,it's happened to me,but if I know another truck has the legs on me,then I nearly always let it pass,so please don't tarnish us all with the same brush.
But what's interesting about my situation was,why did he pull me,and then not go after the other guy?
Ken.
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1.3 miles is not a huge distance on a motorway, that would be a minute and a half at 55mph, I guess. Maybe the copper had a bad hair day.
But as a question, why do I sometimes see truckers blocking the road quite deliberately, for example last week, there was a big crash on the southbound A1(M) at Wetherby, the traffic was still light (I was heading North) until I saw two trucks straddling the three lanes, with several miles of stationary traffic behind them.
Do you get seconded(sp) by the police in these situations?
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You're referring to the rolling roadblock situation.
No,we don't usually get seconded by the police to do this,truck drivers take it upon themselves to create this situation for the simple reason,that you'll always get one driver,usually a car driver,that wants to get past everyone,come hell or high water,for the sake of an extra few seconds for him/her to be quicker than everyone else,and for what reason? It's because they're so impatient.
You'll see that the police do this as well,to create a safe space for colleagues further up the road to work safely in the event of an incident.
I once got pulled over by the police for doing such a thing,after an incident,but he couldn't prove that I did it deliberately,because,like I said to him,there was a car in front of me holding ME up,and had speeded off,which wasn't true,however as he couldn't see through me,he had to let me go.
At the end of the day,if everyone just merged into line earlier,instead of trying to get the jump on everyone else,causing havoc at the point of no return,then people wouldn't have to resort to starting these rolling roadblocks,and traffic would probably move quicker anyhow.
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Not necessarily true.
If people don't merge in until the point of no return, then you don't end up with traffic jams under those circumstances when actually the reason for closing a lane has long since disappeared.
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I remember reading correspondence in 'Truck' magazine in the 80's about a dubiuos practice adopted by drivers from one or two flash transport companies. Apparently they'd deliberately run two lorries side by side on the M25 for miles as an advert to traffic coming the other way.
Cheers, SS
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Oh I see, a vigilante approach to traffic control. That would be because you know better than everybody else, I guess. Clearly if you are being stopped by the police and resorting to lying to cover yourself, you don't have their support.
And then, no doubt, truck drivers wonder why they face yet more resentment.
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This is fairly common practice among HGV drivers, given their experience I'd be interested hearing their viewpoint.
Fancy Quinny lying to the police who stopped him - I'd never do that to get off ;-)
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By the same rule Mark,I've seen car drivers go hurtling up to the front of the queue,only to realise that no-one will let them in,and for them to go straight into the cones,and scattering them everywhere,causing more mayhem for other,already frustrated drivers,hence the reason some truck drivers start rolling roadblocks.
And if you would care to ask other truck drivers of their viewpoint,then link to the address below,register,and then post the question.
trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=dd365f...2
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I would still tend to think that if the police wanted a rolling roadblock they would organize one themselves, or ask you to help them.
BTW do you all still use CBs or is it all mobile phones these days?
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An artic driver myself and directed to have a gander at the thread from www.trucknetuk.co.uk link.
This question was raised on another forum about 18 months ago and fwiw, here was my reply....
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I've been pondering on whether to make an in-depth reply to the car v trucker war that has seemingly been going on for a long time on this forum and I'm sure will continue with force, especially after this!
I'm a 44 tonne artic driver and do tramping work all over the UK on container work.
Firstly, the reply from the car driver arguing the points made by "Ice Man" rattled me enough to have me contribute my quids' worth.
It is clear from your replies that have no idea whatsoever of what it's like to drive an artic.
A few points:
1) Speed limiters:
With a few exceptions, the vast majority of artics have speed limiters fitted which are limited to 90kmh (56mph). However, there is a little bit of variance depending on who's set it and some trucks will do perhaps as much as 58mph, some only say 54mph but we're all roughly travelling at the same speed. Inevitably, if you happen to be the driver of one of those which has what's known as a "good limiter" (ie. 57/58mph) then you'll catch up with the truck in front eventually.
Now you've said yourself that it's no fun whatsoever being stuck behind something you can't see round in your car and funnily enough, us truckers feel exactly the same and want to get round whatever is obscuring our view. It's easy for you to say "well what are going to do with the few seconds you save?" but would you sit behind another truck for a considerable length of time that was going slower than your desired speed? I'll answer that for you - no.
Right, so the right indicator goes on and we put out (see later) but because of the limiter it's rare that we'll pull past the other truck at more than 1-2mph. Yes we would like to accelerate up to 70mph, get past and pull back in but unfortunately we can't because of the limiter. Your comments about "after you've pulled back in you accelerate away no problem" or words to that effect is just your imagination I can assure you.
2) Slipstreaming the truck in front:
Okay, get this into your head : If we pulled out to overtake the truck in front once we had reached the "keeping a 2 second minimum gap from the vehicle in front" as dictated by the Highway Code then what it would result in is the overtaking truck hogging the middle/outside lane for roughly 10 times the length of time and distance you see them doing on the motorways today.
Generally speaking, all us truckers drive in the same way and if a hazard appears ahead that the truck behind can't see then the leading truck will give enough warning by using indicators/hazards/dabbing of brake pedal to alert the following trucker to ease off in anticipation of a hazard or follow suit of changing lane etc. If you're following any other vehicle that isn't a truck then you've no idea what they could do or what their intentions are.
3) Pulling out to overtake.
I'm not a driver who does the signal-maneouvre thing at exactly the same time. Depending on how heavy and fast the traffic is, I will indicate when there's a gap and move out when it's safe to do so. There are a number of different opinions of one's interpretation of "safe" and whilst I consider myself to be a good, considerate and safe driver there are times when I know the manouevre I make isn't as safely made as it should be but in my defence I feel that making it when I did actually kept the traffic flow flowing whereas I would have hampered it if I would have performed the maneouvre safely.
I won't pull out into fast moving traffic IF both the middle and outer lanes are both quite heavy with traffic. However, a big gripe for us truckers is when the outside lane is empty and the Rover/Pug 106 driver is about to pass you doing 60mph in the middle lane, you indicate and they won't move over. THAT is inconsiderate and bad driving. Fair enough, if the traffic is heavy and there's nowhere for them to go then I don't expect them to slow down/move over JUST to let ME out but I will leave my indicator flashing, indicating my intention/desire to pull out.
What most non-truck drivers don't realise and understand is that if a fully-laden truck on the slightest uphill incline indicates to pull out round the vehicle in front and you don't let it, you are doing yourself no favours at all and shooting yourself in the foot. How do I come to that conclusion you're wondering? Well unfortunately most bosses don't give us a nice V8 Scania 164 580hp which will have no problems accelerating like a car up a hill and we are given trucks which will perform acceptably at half weight but really need working to keep the speed up at full weight.
Momentum is what it's all about. If you let that truck pull out - who will usually have indicated in good time for you to easily adjust your speed/get out of the way - then the flow of the traffic continues as normal because the trucker has been able to pull out without coming off the gas and losing that precious momentum. It's a very fine art being able to keep the needle at exactly the right position on the rev counter in the right gear to achieve that premium torque and pulling power. If you drop out of that by having to let off the gas and change down because the inconsiderate car driver couldn't be a***d pressing his accelerator pedal a millimetre to get out of the way then before you know what's happened, the truck's now down to 40mph and all the trucks behind him/her are all indicating to pull out round it thus slowing even more people down and hogging more lanes. Now do you understand!?
A lot of truckers are bad drivers - I see it from them too which really lets the side down considering the rigorous class II and class I tests you're put through to ensure we are professional drivers but (no sucking up to the truckers just because I'm trucker) I think the majority car and van drivers really are inconsiderate/dangerous drivers.
Personally I blame the utter ease of the normal driving test which is an absolute joke. You don't get taught to drive; you get taught to pass your test. Roll on when the day comes when the normal driving test is as hard as the class I one is. That would soon sort the country-wide congestion problem!
4) Car/van driver bad habits (where do you begin...?) :
i) Sliproads on :
Okay, let's clear one major point up before we start. The short broken lines at the end of the sliproad on mean "give way to vehicles already on the main carriageway" and "adjust your speed to merge WITHOUT causing anyone already on the main carriageway to adjust THEIR speed to match YOURS".
This very very rarely happens. Car and van drivers come hell for leather down the sliproad and either speed up and use every millimetre of the sliproad and just manage to squeeze out in front of us as the sliproad ends or do 1mph more than us alongside us on the sliproad and expect us to move over to let you out. Err no. I used to do this, being the considerate and courteous driver that I am but 9 times out of 10 either 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) The driver who I've moved over for sits alongside me in the inside lane and I'm now in the middle lane having being nice and moved over to let you out and matches my speed wondering why I'm not accelerating past you and pulling back in. Obviously I can't because of the limiter. 2) The driver I've moved over for accelerates up my nearside giving me no acknowledgement of thanks for moving over and thus leaving me stranded in the middle lane trying to see in my nearside blind-spot looking for any other fools that have pulled out before I move back over again.
The courteous thing to do if another vehicle moves over to let you out is to pull out and keep your speed down to approx 5mph less than the vehicle that's moved over and allow them to move back over. Is it too much to ask? I've got so sick of seeing it now that I don't move over. I get horns blasted at me because cars and vans come to the end of the sliproad alongside me expecting ME to adjust my speed to let them out. No no no. Your giveway : You wait.
Sadly, this also applies to a lot of truckers whom I will move over for EXPECTING them to know how the courtesy thing works and do same, allowing you to move back over. Most truckers do in all fairness.
ii) Sliproads off :
DO NOT TRY TO BARGE YOUR WAY INTO A NON-EXISTANT GAP IN FRONT OF US WHEN YOU'RE AT <300YDS. This will result in us getting very road-rage like and if the traffic was at a stand-still, getting out of cabs and having a few choice words. Also expect plenty of truck horn noise and much dazzling of full beam. If you had to brake hard for some reason after pulling into our stopping space and we were fully loaded or the road was damp/wet you would be killed when we hit you as your car would be reduced in length to the thickness of a sheet of A4. And I'm not joking. I just hope for your sake it never happens. You're dicing with death every time you do it. Point made I hope.
iii) Two lanes; tight left hand corners :
We need both lanes okay, just face it and let us get on with it and stay behind until we're fully back in the inside lane. If we're overhanging the outside lane we're not slack and unable to see the white lines, there's a reason for it. Work it out and give us space. Same applies to narrow lanes on roundabouts when turning right. To keep the trailer either in the lane or off the kerb on the centre of the roundabout we need the front end to be half in the next nearside lane. Don't EVER come up the inside when we're turning right on a roundabout. The position of the cab and trailer in such a maneouvre totally obscures ANY nearside vision. You're extremely likely to end up under the trailer if you do this.
If you do insist on being alongside on tight left hand bends on dual carriageways, then use your head and keep as far over to the right of your lane as possible to give us space if we need it.
5) Setting off from junctions :
Don't think we're taking the p*** if it takes us a lightyear to get up to 30mph from standstill. Going up through the gears takes time and much right foot when you're fully loaded. Pulling out in impatience and cutting back in is just unnecessary and inconsiderate. A good indication if a truck is empty is by looking to see if any of the axles on the tractor unit or trailer are raised. If it's empty then if the driver wishes, could probably out-accelerate you away from a junction or traffic lights; very much so if it's just the tractor unit (average horse-power of a tractor unit is 400hp, compared to the 60hp in your Pug 106 or 130ish in an average rep mobile, so it's no contest for us really especially as we know how to block change up!)
6) Downhills :
Yes we're limited to 56mph but if you get a steep enough hill the weight of the vehicle (and load) pushes you along and "through" your limiter. Don't be surprised to see trucks doing 60-70mph down an incline on a motorway without appearing to be braking. Trucks are fitted with exhaust brake's which when operated closes off a valve on the exhaust and basically speaking tries to stall the wagon and this keeps the speed down without needing to press the brake pedal.
7) Motorway congestion :
When will you people learn that driving up the a*** of the vehicle in front gets you nowhere and causes even more queues? Changing lanes slows the traffic down just as bad too. Next time you're in rush hour traffic on a busy motorway and the traffic is all stop-start, look to see which lane is moving fastest. It's the inside lane. Why? Because us truckers keep a big gap from the vehicle in front and can see what the lane up ahead is doing thus leaving plennnnnnnnnnty of time to ease of the gas without the need for ever braking. You look at the outside lane and they're all 2ft from the vehicle in front, accelerating harshly, stopping that guy in the middle lane from leaping into that gap if they leave one and then when the vehicle in front brakes, they brake harshly themselves because they're so close to it they've left themselves no thinking time to see if the vehicle is lightly braking or doing an emergency stop. And so it follows back down the queue...
With the exception of a sliproad off that is queueing back onto the inside lane of a motorway, the inside lane always moves the fastest. Fact. [But car and van drivers, please disregard this and stay in the middle and outer lanes ;)]
And there endeth my rant. If any drivers still don't get it, then there's no hope for you ever. Driving an artic is no easy fete; the concentration and skill involved is tremendous and I'm sad to say that a lot of the time, it's YOU the other drivers that make it that way. Credit where credit's due though - there are a number of excellent considerate drivers (not just to truckers "needs") and to these I say a big THANKS from all us truckers for making our job easier.
Looking forward to the barrage of replies from the anti-truckists. :)
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Rob K
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I looked at the truckers website and read quite a few of the threads.
While I understand where you are coming from, even if truck and car drivers obey the unwritten rules the fact remains that even two good truck drivers are going to cause a lot of fustration to other road users when attempting to overtake.
There were also a couple of replies stating that not all truck drivers are so considerate and I am afraid that a few bad apples do a lot of harm.....look at the bad reputation for some german car drivers for instance.
Unfortunately I do not think there is a simple solution, removing limiters is not going to be acceptable to polititians EU wide, motorway and dual carriageway congestion is increasing and polititians choose the easy route out. This started a while ago with coaches being banned from lane 3, now trials are underway with caravans banned from lanes 2 and 3 in one uphill stretch.
regards
StarGazer
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Now that's an excellent post.
And people should realise that it applies just as much to any van on the road too - short on power when laden, and with a HUGE blind spot on the left hand side. (Big enough to hide a car, anyway.) No, I don't drive commercially, but I've spent long enough behind the wheel of several of these vehicles. These are my two pet hates, just to emphasise Rob K's post:
3. Acceleration & overtaking
Above 60mph there just isn't any. So if you're driving your little car up the middle lane at 73, and a van on the inside doing 70 is rapidly approaching a speed-limited truck, then please either (a) foot off the accelerator (don't worry, you'll speed up quickly enough); (b) foot down (you'll get out of the way easily); (c) move over to the right.
If you're too terrified or too unobservant to use the outside lane, then please retire from driving.
It has taken the driver of the van ages to reach that 70mph, he won't thank you for slowing him down, whereas you can vary your speed at will. It's just considerate motoring - it's no skin off your nose, and a huge bonus to the van driver.
4i. Joining at a slip road
Again, there is a large blind spot on any van on the left, and the driver can well do without having to work out where you (or anybody else) may be, so drop back, and then overtake. Please. For your own safety and for the safety of the others on the road
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Excellent post RobK - and as a caravanner I can vouch for the fact that 90% of HGV drivers are very considerate
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Excellent post RobK - and as a caravanner I can vouch for the fact that 90% of HGV drivers are very considerate
It amazes me that people have time to count the number of vehicles that they pass when driving, and then produce statistics from them.
It take all my concentration just to drive, let alone do math while driving.
:-)
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Excellent... and thank you to lorry drivers everywhere who get my Maltesers to the shops on time during the mini egg free months!
Just one thing ;-) ...
Same applies to narrow lanes on roundabouts when turning right. To keep the trailer either in the lane or off the kerb on the centre of the roundabout we need the front end to be half in the next nearside lane. Don't EVER come up the inside when we're turning right on a roundabout. The position of the cab and trailer in such a maneouvre totally obscures ANY nearside vision. You're extremely likely to end up under the trailer if you do this.
Ok so lets imagine for a second we're on a three lane, traffic light controlled roundabout, where its not a case of the car driver having come up the inside lane, simply that the lights are red and everyone is sat waiting for them to change(sound familiar?). Surely if you know that you can't easily see what's in the inside lane, the responsibility is on you to ensure that you can move over safely, and not to rely on cars drivers to be psychic and know that you're going to move over on them as soon as the lights change.... scaring them to death, wrecking their car and forcing them to drive a micra for the next four months?! GRrrrrrr!!
Ahem... sorry... I love lorry drivers really, especially the ones who wear short sleeved shirts and have well formed, untattooed forearms (well, that's all you can see from my level!)
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Rob K
Good stuff, very educational for a car driver like me.
I follow the bit about speed limiters, and you explained the position of the driver of the faster vehicle, but I still don't understand why the lorry being overtaken doesn't ease off for a couple of mph, just while the speed-limited vehicle completes its overtake. Can you shed any light?
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I read Rob's post "up top" before seeing that the thread was still open and aside from praising the thoroughness and cogency of his post, I'd just like to ask him if he thought the behaviour of truckers and car drivers towards each other has diminished over the last few years? I was taught to make allowances for trucks' inertia and turning circles and I make a conscious effort to flash them out into the middle lane and back in again if I'm in the inside lane but find the indicator wink in reply is less in evidence these days and more urgent maneouvres are. But no more so than the corresponding decline in thanks from car drivers for similar courtesies.
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I gave up driving artics for a livingover 20 years ago.But I do drive a low loader rig on an infrequent basis. (usually with a steam engine on the back) In my opinion the standard of driving has deteriorated since my days as a professional driver.
I recently took an engine to a carnival in a nearby village. To get there I had to drive through two other villlages on what was once a main road but has now been bypassed. The crass supidity of your average car driver had to been seen to be believed. blocking up the road by coming straight at me or stopping opposite a gap not big enough to get a transit in. No forward thinking and the herd instinct was the order of the day.
Sunday afternoon near the bridge on junction 2 over the M50 an artic had turned into a lane by mistake and was trying to back out. Reversing lights clearly showing, hazardson and audible warning deviceon, car drivers stil pulling up to within a few yards of the back of the trailer. There was obviously a problem but would they allow any room? not on your life. In the end I had to stop traffic while my passenger persuaded the cars in the way to reverse. That in itself was not an easy task.Is reversing no longer part of the test?
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Alyn Beattie
I'm sane, it's the rest of the world that's mad.
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Sorry about the bad layout on my last post for some reason I lost the cursor on the screen, had to go out of internet and reload.
There was one other point I wanted to make, In the days before limiters, lorries were governed to around 60 mph,but this meant you could hold 60 mph. With a limiter it kicks in at around 56 then drops the speed back 2 or 3 mph before allowing the vehicle to proceed, this causes no end of problems on an overtake.
The things are a menace and should be removed. Dreamt up by some EU prat that has never sat in a lorry never mind driven one.
Rob k and his mates have my utmost admiration, it's a lousy job. badly paid,with a great deal of responsibility and always someone on your back.
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Alyn Beattie
I'm sane, it's the rest of the world that's mad.
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I read Rob K post.I thought he made it plain why.I used to be a van driver and know exactly what he was talking about.and could not agree more.To make it plainer(I hope)the truck being overtaken may have Limiter set below overtaking truck.they can not let off accelerator due to time it will take to rebuild speed.where it takes you seconds.artics fully laden take miles.
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Was mech1
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I was once climbing a steep hill in a laden lorry and was overtaken by a cyclist. OK, so he was a serious cyclist on a racing bike. The best bit was when I passed him, stopped at the top of the hill, out of breath.
Cheers, SS
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Nice one RobK.
All this timing stuff is great in theory. But, for example, if you miss a green light by a few seconds, then that?s x minutes waiting on the stop signal and y seconds for a truck to get moving again. And a few minutes might mean a missed delivery slot, with goods being rejected or having to wait for another truck to be ?tipped? first.
Truck drivers are limited in the number of hours they can drive per day, per week and per fortnight. Car drivers are not (but should be, in my view).
And a trucker sitting in a jam whilst people rubber neck a minor bump, breakdown, kid being let out to pee on the hard shoulder etc all counts as driving time.
It is very unlikely you would get away with pushing in front of a truck driver at the likes of ?burger king?, so why do it on the road? The odds of coming away unscathed if little car tangles with big truck are pretty poor.
A reduction in accidents, and the subsequent delays, due to inappropriate speed, tailgating, rubber necking etc would reduce journey times for all (there is probably added ?green? value as well).
My last point (hooray!) is that most truckers also drive cars or ride motorbikes, so do see both sides of the coin!
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An excellent post from Rob and one that I'd like to see in print in newspaper Motoring Sections and magazines. The worst culprits wouldn't see it but it might make one or two think again.
Kevin...
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Rob K
Thnak you an excelent post and very informative. However here is my reply
I consider myself Lorry knowledgable and friendly.
Let me explain
When approaching a dual carriageway tight roundabout, and you are on the inside lane, that driver holding up the traffic in the outside lane behind you so your trailor can cut the arc as it has too? Thats me similar sharp left hand turns the driver holding the idiots away from your tight spot is me.
You are trying to turn left into a main road at a sharp juntion? that car coming the other way that stops well back so your cab can go on the wrong side of the road to get the trailor round? Thats me.
On the motorway, you inside lane me middle lane, you indicate to overtake another lorry. That car that gives you a quick flash, indicates right and pulls into the third lane so you can overtake without loosing momentum? thats me.
If for some reason you are in the outside lane where the road converges to single carriageway, that driver in the inside lane that slows and pulls back and gives you a flash when your trailor is clear - thats me.
However
On the A14 when you pull out to overtake another truck after putting your indicator on for 1 microsecond when I have got within 20 yards of you, just so you can maintain your 1 mph momentum advantage despite the fact we can both see a hill in front that will screw you, and then take 5 miles to complete your overtaking move - that irate motorist behind you is me. I dont care if you loose your momentum, its 1mph for gods sake. This will be the same driver that will make sure you loose more than 1mph momentum next time.
And for interest, I have raced a friend a way from the lights in a Big powerful 500 bhp tractor unit with no trailor, and beat him hands down, despite my meagre 120 bhp. I can change gear quicker than you my friend and I have less of them to fumble with.
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And before you accuse me of being anti lorry driver - the best Drivers of all, without exception, are fuel tanker drivers for the major refiners and retailers.
I have never seen such calm, careful, responsible, considerate, and skillful drivers as them. Always. At all times.
When was the last time you heard of an accident involving one of those guys?
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Not any more they're not.Trust me I'm a class 1 driver
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However On the A14 when you pull out to overtake another truck after putting your indicator on for 1 microsecond when I have got within 20 yards of you, just so you can maintain your 1 mph momentum advantage despite the fact we can both see a hill in front that will screw you, and then take 5 miles to complete your overtaking move - that irate motorist behind you is me. I dont care if you loose your momentum, its 1mph for gods sake. This will be the same driver that will make sure you loose more than 1mph momentum next time.
I think this is what infuriates so many car drivers and it is commonplace. The manoeuvre, as everyone will know, is supposed to be carried out by first using the mirror and then indicating to pull out, if it is safe to do so. The impression given is that it seems completely irrelevant to the lorry driver, whether or not they are about to be overtaken by a car, which would normally be past them very quickly.
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If you work it out, however powerful the lorry is, its power: weight ratio is crummy.
350bhp / 38 tonnes = 9.2bhp per tonne
Even the tractor unit on its own is pretty poor. Most weigh around 10 tonnes (The Renault Magnum is over 10 tonnes...), so:
350bhp / 10 tonnes = 35bhp per tonne
And all this of course with a slow, 10 speed gearbox and an engine tuned for low down torque, not acceleration.
Average car:
100bhp / 1 tonne = no contest.
Absolutely agree with RF - I have lots of time for lorry drivers, and really go out of my way to make what must be a difficult and frustrating job a little easier. It's the tedious selfishness of the vain attempts to overtake which annoy me and many others.
Of course, you also have the effect of creating bigger speed differentials, a bottleneck, more danger and ultimately a traffic queue. How many times, even on a 3 lane m way have you had to drop to 40mph or so for a few miles only to come to the head of the queue and find it was all caused by two lorries inching past each other?
Ban them to the inside lane for large stretches of the motorway network. It works in Germany...
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Very good and informative post by Rob K.
I have spent most of my 34 driving yearts in cars but over the last few years have been driving a horse box. I have nothing but admiration for lorry drivers. There are always a few bad apples but I find many many more of those amongst car drivers than lorry drivers. Until a car driver has driven a truck he or she cannot and will not understand what it is like to drive a lorry. I have the advantage of no limiter (under 7.5 tonnes) but can understand how a limiter would affect my driving. After reading the entries above it occurred to me to wonder how car drivers would react if they all had to have limiters restricting them to the legal speed limit of 70mph. Now that would be interesting !!!
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What?s the breaking distance of a car at 70 mph, and how long is the typical artic? If you think the truck has cut you up, were you tailgating?
Many car/van drivers appear oblivious to a trucks indicators.
It is difficult to defend or justify the pointless truck overtaking truck manoeuvre (other than on a 4 lane carriageway when car drivers seem rather attracted to Lanes 3 & 4!).
As I said above, I personally believe the problems on our roads are more to do with car/van drivers than those trained and tested to drive vehicles above 7.5T.
I agree with ?An Other?s? point on Germany. But they also have more crawler lanes on the continent. And in Belgium, it is now an offence if you fail to indicate when exiting a roundabout ? bring that law to the UK and we?ll see more revenue earned than from speed cameras!
On balance, I think there are many more whinges that a truck driver can plant on the typical car driver.
Nine plus people killed each day on our roads, 300 ish seriously injured. And you?re worried because a truck has slowed you down by 14mph (legally) for a minute or so?
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You're absolutely right - in the context of everything else on the roads, lorry drivers cause few problems. Now 4x4s on the other hand...
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What?s the breaking distance of a car at 70 mph, and how long is the typical artic? If you think the truck has cut you up, were you tailgating? Many car/van drivers appear oblivious to a trucks indicators.
One can hardly be tailgaiting the truck if the car is in a different lane. The point that has been raised is that a lot of lorry drivers will signal and pull out simoultaneously just as a car is about to overtake (sorry, but this is a commonplace occurrence). In fact, I will anticipate it happening on nearly all occasions, where I can, by pulling over into the outside lane. However, if I am being overtaken at the same time, I am unable to do anything other than get ready to slow down for the inevitable.
In the worst instances, I have even had lorry drivers try to pull out whilst I was alongside them, a frightening experience if ever there was one.
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machika - you've missed the point. If truck is in lane 1, offended car driver is in lane 2, then what is the stopping distance between offended car and whatever it was following in lane 2?
On the subject of cars tailgating trucks, you must have seen the signs saying ?if you can?t see me in the mirrors, then I can?t see you?. I have the luxury of a rear view camera system ? so I can see the cars tailgating me at 40 plus mph which would be rather dented if my 8 foot tail lift fell down!
HGV drivers are outnumbered by car drivers to the tune of fifty to one (guesstimate by me), worse than the school teacher to pupil ratio in our class rooms.
Driving ?big things? over a lot of miles does count for something, doesn?t it? Who's the more experienced driver, you or me?
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machika - you've missed the point. If truck is in lane 1, offended car driver is in lane 2, then what is the stopping distance between offended car and whatever it was following in lane 2? On the subject of cars tailgating trucks, you must have seen the signs saying ?if you can?t see me in the mirrors, then I can?t see you?. I have the luxury of a rear view camera system ? so I can see the cars tailgating me at 40 plus mph which would be rather dented if my 8 foot tail lift fell down!
Maybe I have missed the point, but a car driver tailgaiting another car is a separate issue altogether. It is just another issue of bad driving practice. Yes, it is commonplace also and I am not trying to whitewash the faults of a lot of car drivers. It is not only car drivers that tailgate though, as I have had lorries so close to me that I could barely see the lorries' headlights.
In addition, the faults of car drivers do not excuse the practice of a lot of lorry drivers, who do pull out without due consideration to overtaking car drivers. As I have said already, this is commonplace, as anyone could see if they went out onto any motorway or dual carriageway. I have had lorries pull out in front of me when I have virtually been level with the rear end of the lorry (what use braking distance then?), or even when I have been alongside them and I have had no way of moving over to the outside lane (assuming there is a third lane). The drivers seem to think that when they signal to pull out, it is a signal for the car driver to give way, or get out of the way.
The fact that a driver has been driving for 10, 20 or thirty years doesn't necessarily make them a good driver. Experience counts for nothing, if people don't learn from it and continue with bad practice.
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In the worst instances, I have even had lorry drivers try to pull out whilst I was alongside them, a frightening experience if ever there was one.
I've had that too, and it's terrifying. Most lorry drivers are great, but there are some really dangerous ones too -- tho I partly blame the employers for setting such ridiculously tight schedules. (I had a friend who drove big artics, and her schedules had absolutely no slack, so no wonder some drivers shave off their safety margins)
The worst lorry experience I ever had was on the road from Stranraer to Dumfries: I had got off a ferry in the middle of the night, and found myself in the midst of a stream of trucks on the winding, narrow A-road (one lane each way, no hard shoulder, no verge most of the way). That was scary enough, but then a group of trucks at the back set out to overtake the whole convoy. It took them several minutes to do so, and if anything had come the other way there was nowhere for anyone to go to avoid a collision ... and no way for me to get off the road to avoid these loonies.
I don't think my heart has ever stopped for quite so long.
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Let?s see if we can get this in perspective.
Next time you use the roads, make a count of how many dangerous moves you see by
a) truck drivers
b) other vehicles/road users
Naturally, we should make an allowance for the facts that car/van drivers may not be HGV trained and don?t have the hazard perception or forward visibility that a truck cab provides.
And if you wish to risk your life sitting along side a truck in the driver?s blind spot, then visit www.driveandsurvive.com/fleet-risk-management-fact...p, digest the facts and figures, and book yourself a course!
I am not defending the minority of truck drivers that are guilty of pulling out or executing pointless overtaking moves (RobK fully explains the truck driver?s perspective, so why not read it again?).
We all make mistakes on the road. Accidents are avoided by others forgiving and being tolerant of our mistakes. Believe it or not, truck drivers do help out other road users, even though you don?t recognise it!
Heart stopping - for info, truck drivers (despite stereotypical lardy image) have to pass more stringent medical tests to obtain or renew the HGV licence ? including eyesight!
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Let’s see if we can get this in perspective.
gll, I'd be the first to argue that most truckers are great -- I'd rate them far ahead of reps in cars. I have also been helped by many truckers.
But a truck driven badly is a whole lot more dangerous than a car driven badly, and I do worry that the pressures placed on truckers lead to some pretty dangerous practices. Given the need to keep to schedules etc, I can understand why truckers may shoot out to overtake, but that doesn't make it a good thing to do :(
Thanks, though, to you and to Rob for explaining how it works. I've learnt a lot!
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All the lorry drivers on the Stranraer to Dumfries road are on the CB, asking the man at the front if there is anything coming. So they are not doing it blind as you suggest! My dad is a lorry driver and travels that road every week, so this is how i know!
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That was to NoWheels by the way!
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All the lorry drivers on the Stranraer to Dumfries road are on the CB, asking the man at the front if there is anything coming
Wow! The backroom is an amazing place for the knowledgeable answers you can get.
Thanks Karl, that does reassure me a lot -- maybe I'm not actually risking being squashed by loonies when I take that route, which was what I feared. However, I still don't much like to think what happens if something is coming t'other way, 'cos whenever I've done it, the lorries are following each other pretty closely.
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Many thanks to my colleagues,Rob and Karl,for explaining the way we truck drivers do what we do.
I would extend the thread even further by inviting anyone who reads these posts,to spend a day with us and to see first hand exactly what is involved in driving something that weighs up to 44 tonnes.
If you want to keep abreast of other things in our day to day lives,then take a peek at our 'club' on the link below.
Ken.
trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/
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However, I still don't muchlike to think what happens if something is coming t'other way, 'cos whenever I've done it, the lorries are following each other pretty closely.
I know what your on about!!
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I've had a CB in the skateboard (car) for a dozen years or more and although fewer truckers have their ears on than in the past it can be a great help, particularly on long journeys.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could warn traffic in front or behind of bad road conditions, accidents, boy racers, flat tyres, etc.
If CB was universal and responsibly used you could do all of that and more.
Talking of flat tyres, there was a gentleman with a flat front offside on the North Circular the other night, doing about 30mph with the tyre giving off clouds of smoke. How daft can you get?
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Talking of flat tyres, there was a gentleman with a flat front offside on the North Circular the other night, doing about 30mph with the tyre giving off clouds of smoke. How daft can you get?
As daft as me, maybe :(
Have to confess I once drove 100 miles on the mway with a flat tyre. Very bockety old car, steering pretty useless at best of times -- only noticed problem once I was of the mway and the general noise levels reduced. Result was shredded tyre, trashed wheel, and one very red-faced NoWheels grateful to be alive after such idiocy
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An interesting and thought provoking post from Rob K where, not unnaturally, he looks at the situation from his perspective. However, to me, what comes across is the attitude that I am a better driver because my test is more rigorous. That my progress is all important and it is the duty of car drivers to accommodate me.
I feel that those who term themselves "professional drivers" merely because the spend 8 hours a day on the road, and thus believe they are endowed with special qualities are deluding themselves.
He states: "I think the majority car and van drivers really are inconsiderate/dangerous drivers" and goes on to list the(many) faults of car drivers. His definition of inconsiderate/dangerous drivers seems to be anyone who inconveniences an HGV.
Well I can live with the bullying tactics of HGV drivers, and having passed an HGV test myself, I can understand the temptation to use their muscle. There is however one fault of many HGV drivers that is unforgivable. A couple of accurate quotes from his post:
"Momentum is what it's all about"
"If you had to brake hard for some reason after pulling into our stopping space and we were fully loaded
Or the road was damp/wet you would be killed when we hit you as your car would be reduced in length to the thickness of a sheet of A4. And I'm not joking. I just hope for your sake it never happens. You're dicing with death every time you do it."
How many times have we slowed down in fog or heavy spray and been passed by an HGV or have them sitting a few feet from our back bumper. When there is a serious pile-up on the motorway invariably HGVs are in the thick of it and responsible for the majority of casualties.
If those "professional drivers" drove within the limitations of their vehicles much carnage would be avoided.
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Cardew
?....when there is a serious pile-up on the motorway invariably HGVs are in the thick of it and responsible for the majority of casualties......?
I am unaware of any stats that back up your statement.
However, the 2002 stats do suggest that Motorways are the safest roads in terms of percentage of accidents and percentage of injuries (3% & 4% respectively).
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The lorry in the slow lane should take a couple of mph off the limiter to let the overtaker past, some do, some don't.
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I think the standard of driving of LGV's is much higher than that of driving in general (and so it should be!). That's not to say you don't get LGV drivers making mistakes or doing stupid things sometimes.
However, when a heavy lorry is involved in a high speed accident the consequences are much worse simply because of the weight of the vehicle, and therefore the amount of dameage that occurs.
Cheers, SS
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Due to where I live and work, I drive on motorways everyday. I love them when they're empty but when they're busy give me a road full of lorries every time against a road full of cars.
I see far more accidents in the outside lane (full of car drivers in a hurry who don't understand the overtaking rules on motorways) than in the inside lane (full of HGV drivers with more driving experience than most of us will ever get).
In my experience, an HGV driver is the most considerate on the road and if you indicate (politely!) to them what you would like to do, invariably they will assist to the best of their abilities. (Foregin HGVs are excluded totally from this statement...)
Yes it's a pain being stuck behind a speed-limited HGV on a 1 or 2 lane road (whether or not overtaking) but a sight safer than having a road-hog parked 2 feet from your rear bumper coz his time is more important than everyone else's.
And no, I'm not a trucker and never have been!
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Duchess - I agree.
I'd say lorry drivers are among the best drivers, as a group, on the roads. That's not to say there aren't bad ones or even that the good ones get badly caught out occasionally. There's a marked difference in driving standards between LGV's (over 7.5 tonnes MPW) and the 7.5 tonners that can be driven on a car licence. However I think new drivers now have to take a restricted LGV test to drive class C1 (3.5 to 7.5 tonne) vehicles now, so the situation should gradually improve.
Cheers, Sofa Spud - I did used to be a lorry driver, ,many moons ago!
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I have really found this a very interesting thread with comment of a high standard.
Two things:-
1. We have a local quarry industry on the A6, with heavy haulage trucks obviously working to a tight schedule. Keeping to 30mph is difficuly because they tailgate to bully their way through. When they overtake some have a badly fitted tarpaulin cover, dropping lumps of stone over the road. I followed one for a couple of miles until he stopped at the lights, and knocked on his cab to warn him. The stones he was dropping were as big or bigger than my fist, and they were skipping across onto the opposite footpath.
2. There used to be quite a lot of scare stories about artics jacknifing. I haven't read any for along time. Did the designers sort it out?
Finally, next Friday the TV is showing the cult movie 'Helldrivers'. It's supposed to be very good.
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>There used to be quite a lot of scare stories about artics jacknifing. I haven't read any for along time. Did the designers sort it out?
No and im not sure it can be sorted out!
www.trucknetuk.com
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Sofa Spud, the C1 licence restrictions (came into force about 1997) are now having an effect on the van and truck rental business. We often have potential hirers (usually aged from 30 downwards) assuming that they can hire a 7.5tonner on a standard car licence. If they passed the driving test after Jan '97 they can't. They're limited to a Luton type vehicle (3.5tonne)
Also, the recent tightening up of the 'O' licence regulations means that many of our long term 7.5tonne customers now can't hire them, they have to hire a couple of Transits instead.
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Re post '97 drivers and C1 LGV licences. Probably this is a good move since it seems a big proportion of the 'unprofessional' lorry driver behaviour is seen in this 3.5 -7.5 tonne category.
Incidentally, I've read that a C1+E LGV licence will be neccessary for newer drivers who want to drive a big 4x4 towing a caravan. e.g. some versions of the new Land Rover Discovery have a kerb weight of 2.7 tonnes, allowing 0.8 tonnes for a caravan. That's before one considers passengers and luggage! Most caravans weigh well over 1 tonne.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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>>>>>>>> so the right indicator goes on and we put out....
Hmm, better be careful of truckers who do that then LOL....
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Hi there.first of all would like to say every word that I have read and replying to makes sense and as Im due to take my LGV test within the next few months I do tend to go with the Lorry drivers side of the argument.Here are some points Id like to add to the whole situation
1)Tailgaters:why the hell do people do this?they are insane!!!tailgating in foggy weather,wet weather,snow,rain ice etc all at breakneck speeds of around 80-120 MPH.My advice,go back to highway code etc and revise your stopping distances
2)Indicators:MY MAIN PET HATE IS PEOPLE WHO DONT INDICATE!!!!!Ok Ive only driven 7.5 tonne as a maximum weight and have pulled trailers etc but if you have to try and predict the future and then have to slow down coz some idiot in a REP type car has just gone round a roundabout like he was at brands hatch and then comes flying at you broadside(looking at you like you are in the wrong)and all the time you dont know where he is going coz the stalk on his steering column is to much effort for him to press up or down.Lazy,Lazy,Lazy.I know your not suppose to assume anything when people indicate and that can can sometimes make people hesitant which slows traffic flow etc etc and its dangerous and stupid and I think the law should be tightened up on this area as a priority rather than peopke moaning about lorries overtaking each other.
3)Slip road common sense:prime example A40 east between summertown and radcliffe hospital junction.Today I am tailgated by some frustrated driver down this road.See slip road and traffic wanting to join(me in 3.5 t transit)I in right lane after overtaking a 50 mph dawdler!!!I have mad woman behind 1 foot from bumper,I want to stay out in rh lane so traffic can join but looking in my mirror she had other ideas,oh yes she wanted to take on the inside!!!bearing in mind traffic was wanting to join main c/way.Once clear I pull back to l/hand lane.Mad woman, flies past just missing my back bumper :)lol.(have seen people reverse back up that lane b4 as well )
4)Lane hoggers:Had this today as well.M40 n/bound green golf middle lane top speed of lets say 50 mph no traffic to the left of it and no reason I could see for this car to be out in this lane.I overtake and can see in mirrors cars and vans struggling to get past this moron.They are in a different world!!!!!what planet are they on??
Anyway please wish me luck in my LGV career and remember to pay a little more attention to those with more difficult jobs than yourself then perhaps there will be less accidents and less deaths on the road
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I don't see what the problem is.
You get the same thing in the outside or middle lanes in cars/vans. One passing the other at 0.001 mph while there is a convoy behind or they are afraid of loosing their place when its possible to pull over into an empty lane to allow others pass.
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anyone who mones about any type of overtaking with a proper commercial vehicle ie not white vans, has never driven one and cannot understand the power bandwiths of these vehicles and how quickly they can run out of puff and nearly stop on an incline if loaded, i have one and do understand ,we dont go out of our way to slow cars down but we also pay our taxes and are allowed the first 2 lanes on any motorway so boo hiss if we slow you down for 15 seconds tough.
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
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"little more attention to those with more difficult jobs than yourself"
Rather presumptious.
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well said space man.
paul
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M1 just north of Watford Gap Services there appears not to have cameras.
I have seen lorries in the overtaking lane there regularly in recent weeks - north and southbound. Usually "tool hire" or breakdown trucks.
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As a long-time driver of notably low-powered cars, which like HGVs depend on losing as little speed as possible especially going uphill, I share the truckers' resentment of the rude and moronic habit of getting in people's way at the bottom of motorway inclines - or indeed anywhere else. I have no problem whatsoever with truckers who are perforce usually very good and careful drivers. Like others I have been held up by trucks passing each other, but this is a rare event. A substantial percentage of car drivers by contrast fuss idiotically about and hamper the traffic flow nearly always and nearly everywhere.
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I probably said this somewhere earlier on this thread, but...
When he starts overtaking a slower lorry on a motorway incline, a lorry driver is unlikely to know what the power/torque characteristics, gearing or loading of the other lorry is. It may have slowed more rapidly than him at the start of the incline but he might find himself running out of puff quicker as he tries to pass. If either driver were to lift off, they would lose a lot of momentum and would slow following traffic even more.
One finds the same thing to a lesser extent in a car on much steeper hills sometimes found on dual carriageways. Doing 70 you pull over to pass a car doing 60 only to find you're soon down to 60 too, while the other car maintains its speed and the BMW behind is getting annoyed!
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Who is more of a nuisance:
Overtaking Lorries.
Or the person who does the 70 limit in the outside lane, only to find himself at the head of a long queue.
At least us lorry drivers have an excuse, we are governed by law & a limiter to do our speed of 56mph as well as the guy doing 70(National speed limit).
Just sounds to me like that there are an awful lot of VERY impatient people in this world. As for lorries just pulling out, yes i agree it's not right although sometimes we don't have a choice as very few cars let us out when we do need to overtake. Common courtesy costs nothing but says a lot.
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Absolutely Cumfray. Impatient, rude and stupid.
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Just sounds to me like that there are an awful lot of VERY impatient people in this world.
A bit ironic, that, in light of your next sentence :(
As for lorries just pulling out, yes i agree it's not right although sometimes we don't have a choice as very few cars let us out when we do need to overtake.
Sorry, but you do indeed have a choice. You do have a choice to do what plenty of drivers have to do: to stay in a slow-moving lane because there isn't a gap in the faster-moving one.
You do not have a "right" to pull out to the right: your indicators are a request for others to give way, not an exercise of a constitutional perogative.
Common courtesy costs nothing but says a lot.
Indeed. And common sense as well as common courteousy says that pulling out in a large vehicle to force much smallers out of the way is not only illegal, it's dangerous.
Truck-drivers do a difficult job, but a post like that doesn't help you win friends.
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your indicators are a request for others to give way,not an exercise of a constitutional perogative.
Since when have indicators been a request to give way, as opposed to a notice of intent? When trying to pull out into a traffic jam in town, fair enough, but when on the move it should be the rule to wait until it is safe to make the manoeuvre, signal, and then do it when other road users have had the opportunity to see the signal and if it is stil safe to do do.
If a lorry signals, I have to work on the assumption that it is going to pull out, not that it is making some kind of polite request - and I don't think it's funny or safe to have to brake hard or make a short notice swerve into lane 3.
It's difficult to generalise about this - sometimes you can see another driver making room, and a signal before moving out, when you wouldn't have done so uninvited, makes sense. But the widespread use of 'aspirational' signalling in my opinion is dangerous as many drivers now seem to think it is acceptable to 'signal, mirror, manoeuvre' in that order, so you're increasingly likely to find the indicator going on as you start to pass another vehicle - how the chuff are you supposed to react to that, other than ignoring it and trusting to luck or by taking sudden and possibly risky avoiding action?
Incidentally I am not anti-lorry - I always try and anticipate other driver's actions and make room if possible, and more often than not I am already in lane 3 or keeping out of the way when the indicator goes on - I find driving much less tiring, not to say safer when it is uncompetitive.
Rant over. Happy weekend everyone.
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>> your indicators are a request for others to give way, >> not an exercise of a constitutional perogative. Since when have indicators been a request to give way, as opposed to a notice of intent?
"Notice of intent" is indeed the correct term, and I'm sorry for the confusion arising from my use of the term "request" -- I was just stressing that indicating your intention does not give you a right to push your way out.
When trying to pull out into a traffic jam in town, fair enough, but when on the move it should be the rule to wait until it is safe to make the manoeuvre, signal, and then do it when other road users have had the opportunity to see the signal and if it is stil safe to do do.
Exactly. But what cumfray seemed to be saying was that he'll indicate and it's up to others to get out of the way. The Highway Code is clear "DO NOT overtake ... when you would force another vehicle to swerve or slow down".
If a lorry signals, I have to work on the assumption that it is going to pull out, not that it is making some kind of polite request - and I don't think it's funny or safe to have to brake hard or make a short notice swerve into lane 3.
I work on that assumption too -- I'm not going to risk a collision with a lorry.
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Exactly. But what cumfray seemed to be saying was that he'll indicate and it's up to others to get out of the way. The Highway Code is clear "DO NOT overtake ... when you would force another vehicle to swerve or slow down".
Nope not in the slightest. I will indicate in good time before I pull out to let others decide whether to let me out, pull back or move to the 3rd lane. But I was saying that in certain circumstances we don't have the chance to indicate in good time before overtaking i.e debris in the road or sudden manouveres by the vehicle in front. But the drivers are out there that just don't care about other road users, irrespective if it's car, van or truck drivers who will manouvere without indicating.
The argument will never go away.
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All this po-faced criticism of truckers for their road manners is getting on my nerves. I am sure most drivers who post here behave properly on the road, but there seems to be a misunderstanding by motorists who think trucks should 'just wait in the slow lane because there's no room in the fast one' and so on. It has been pointed out repeatedly that trucks are slow, especially going uphill, and that HGVs are governed at much the same maximum speed. What has not been emphasised is that drivers like everyone else are working to a timetable. They don't have all the time in the world.
As I said above, one can be held up or irritated by trucks overtaking too slowly or pulling out too promptly after signalling. Speaking for myself, I am held up and irritated by car drivers doing these and many other even more ridiculous things every time I drive any distance. The commonplace fault that annoys me most is pulling into the overtaking lane at say 75 and immediately slowing to about 65. People who do this should be banned from driving. It's wimpish, half-witted and extremely inelegant.
The criticism in this thread is larglely misdirected.
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It has been pointed out repeatedly that trucks are slow, especially going uphill, and that HGVs are governed at much the same maximum speed. What has not been emphasised is that drivers like everyone else are working to a timetable. They don't have all the time in the world.
A lot of people are busy, but that doesn't justify dangerous driving practices. I have some sympathy for the truckers, because of the over-tight schedules they have to work to, but that doesn't make bad driving safe -- it just explains why it happens.
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NW, you are clearly a man of principle but more practice is needed. Compared to trucks, nearly all cars are twice as fast, much faster accelerating and much more athletic in terms of slowing down and changing direction. What merely irritates a self-righteous twit in a car can give a heart-stopping moment to a trucker and perhaps lose him or her several minutes.
Bear this in mind: cars and trucks are not equal. Considering the difficulty of driving the things truckers behave near-impeccably compared to us.
Consider this as a principle: car drivers have a duty of courtesy to truckers to drive round them without making a fuss and stay out of their way. This is easy for people who can drive properly. Perhaps the complainants in this thread are labelling themselves as people of another sort.
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NW, you are clearly a man of principle
I am not a man :) (thank god!)
but more practice is needed.
I have no desire to practice being a man :)
Compared to trucks, nearly all cars are twice as fast, much faster accelerating and much more athletic in terms of slowing down and changing direction.
Agreed. But by the same token, a truck is a much more dangerous object on the road, and its extra bulk and weight should be used with care and courtesy to avoid endangering others.
One thing that far too many truckers do is to follow too closely. Given their poor stoipping times when laden, some of the gaps they leave in front of them on motorways are insanely small -- it's no wonder that they end up darting out to avoid a collison.
What merely irritates a self-righteous twit in a car can give a heart-stopping moment to a trucker and perhaps lose him or her several minutes.
A truck pulling out with inadequate warning or where there isn't enough space may indeed be only a bit irritating. But it can also give people a heart-stopping moment or worse.
There are lots of things on the roads which can cause a few minutes' delay. Stopping at a light as it turns red rather than shooting through it, not overtaking on a solid whie line, a long list. It happens -- vehicles get delayed on the road, get used to it.
Bear this in mind: cars and trucks are not equal. Considering the difficulty of driving the things truckers behave near-impeccably compared to us.
I have a lot of respect for truckers in general: most of their driving is very good indeed, and of a far higher standard than most car-drivers. I'm sure tha nearly all of them are more skilled dtivers than me.
What I was objecting to here was cumfray trying to justify a dangerous maneouvre because he was in a hurry.
Consider this as a principle: car drivers have a duty of courtesy to truckers to drive round them without making a fuss and stay out of their way.
Actually, as someone who cycled for years before I drove a car in my late-twenties, I have always done my best to stay well clear of trucks. Any mistake on their part or miscalculation on my part, and I'm squashed -- so as a matter of safety, I stay clear.
I'll do it as a matter of cortesy too, where possible. But there are plenty of roads which are so busy that I can't give them as wide a berth as I would like to to do for safety and courtesy. And that's where I object to cumfray's view that his boss's unreasonable timelines justifies him risking my safety.
This is easy for people who can drive properly. Perhaps the complainants in this thread are labelling themselves as people of another sort.
I would suggest that people who think that using a larger vehicle to intimidate others out of the way is driving properly should consider whether they are other sort.
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I am very sorry NW for making an assumption about yr gender. I should have said you were a person of principle. Please accept my apology and don't be offended.
Still can't really agree though. I think you are still on some unconscious level putting car and truck drivers in the same box.
I discern what others keep calling an 'attitude problem' too. When you come sweeping up behind some trucks on the motorway, instead of thinking: 'How big and intimidating they are!', try thinking: 'It's much more difficult for them than for me and one of them might want to pull out to overtake.' Then keep one eye on their flashers, another on your rear-view mirror in case you have to pull out, and ease off a trifle if the overtaking lane is full (as it so often is with a mixture of 100mph cruisers and idiot lane hoggers) or if your own speed seems excessive for the situation. You can regain it in a few seconds unless you are already flat out.
There, easy. Another thing: anything can happen of course given human nature, but I can't remember seeing a truck being driven in a deliberately intimidating way. Wish I could say the same of cars.
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I am very sorry NW for making an assumption about yr gender. I should have said you were a person of principle. Please accept my apology and don't be offended.
No problem - I'm sure no offence was intended, and none was taken :)
Still can't really agree though. I think you are still on some unconscious level putting car and truck drivers in the same box.
To some degree, yes. I think that both sorts of driver can be insufficiently considerate of road-users more vulnerable than them.
I discern what others keep calling an 'attitude problem' too. When you come sweeping up behind some trucks on the motorway, instead of thinking: 'How big and intimidating they are!', try thinking: 'It's much more difficult for them than for me and one of them might want to pull out to overtake.'
No problem if it's a single truck, but on the M62, for example, it's quite common to find as you describe that the inside lane is full of long queues of trucks and the outside lane full of the speed-limit-don't-apply to me brigade.
So doing 65 in the middle lane (because its the leftmost lane available) is the only option. They may want to pull out, but they only place they can pull out into is a lane full of traffic with no room for maneouvre except hitting the brakes and hoping that the idiot following too closely will respond in time.
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So doing 65 in the middle lane (because its the leftmost lane available) is the only option. They may want to pull out, but they only place they can pull out into is a lane full of traffic with no room for maneouvre except hitting the brakes and hoping that the idiot following too closely will respond in time.
If you have to brake, you have to. It's the responsibility of those behind not to run into you. I take your point about feeling trapped in the middle lane. It happens to everyone sometimes. The normal response is to wait for a gap in the overtaking lane and accelerate into it to minimise the risk of causing some eager beaver to have to brake heavily, get past the trucks and resume your normal position and speed.
I am afraid that if I couldn't or was unwilling to reach and quite often exceed the posted limit I too would find say a busy M6 a very intimidating place. Best avoided perhaps. There's a lot to be said for A roads.
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Lud, I agree with every word you say. Many drivers are shamefully inattentive (at best) and downright aggressive (at worst) when if they do anticipate a vehicle wanting to overtake, they will close up instead of easing back slightly to aid everybody's progress - disgraceful behaviour.
The one thing I will never understand with trucks though is the nose-to-tail thing. I heard many justifications, none of them convinciing not least because by no means all truck drivers subscribe to it themselves.
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What I was objecting to here was cumfray trying to justify a dangerous maneouvre because he was in a hurry.
Where does it say in my comment about being in a hurry??????
As for lorries driving to close, I admit to driving close to the truck in front but only as a means to overtake because to help a truck overtake another you end up in his slipstream which like in F1 racing helps you to do so. Some do it because they are in convoy & are in contact via CB radio. Others do it in just blind faith.
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As for lorries driving to close, I admit to driving close to the truck in front but only as a means to overtake because to help a truck overtake another you end up in his slipstream which like in F1 racing helps you to do so. Some do it because they are in convoy & are in contact via CB radio. Others do it in just blind faith.
Not necessarily so blind perhaps. Truckers know they can usually count on each other to do the right thing. Am I guilty of double standards if I ignore Cumfray's admission to slipstreaming at 60-odd mph, when I complain bitterly of car drivers on German motorways doing it at 130mph in the rain? Not really, because I've driven past a mile-long 100-vehicle shunt almost certainly caused by the latter, and never seen an accident caused by the former.
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Am I guilty of double standards if I ignore Cumfray's admission to slipstreaming at 60-odd mph,
60-odd mph I should be so lucky. 52mph more like
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Not necessarily so blind perhaps. Truckers know they can usually count on each other to do the right thing. Am I guilty of double standards if I ignore Cumfray's admission to slipstreaming at 60-odd mph, when I complain bitterly of car drivers on German motorways doing it at 130mph in the rain? Not really, because I've driven past a mile-long 100-vehicle shunt almost certainly caused by the latter, and never seen an accident caused by the former.
I think there have been plenty of accidents where lorries have 'ploughed', as the media will have it, into a line of standing traffic or an earlier crash. At the point where a driver (of any vehicle) has to emergency-brake, any driver that is following too closely is in trouble. Slipstreaming, like any other form of tailgating, only works because 99.9999% of the time the driver in front behaves predictably - that condition cannot apply to an emergency stop. Sorry, I forgot they can always give them a call on the CB...
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the slipstream affect is very important because that is exactly what happens you can get sucked into the vortex created by the truck in front and you therefore pull out to overtake and all of a sudden your sudden snap of extra power has gone,this is why waggons often pull out but then dont overtake as they have no reserves of power,unfortunately as already said if they let their foot of the gas to pull back in then they lose even more power and therefore cause even greater mayhem.
To put the argument in a nutshell most car drivers are ignorent of the fact that the waggon they are racing up to is going to need to overtake before they get to it and they therefore have to brake or pull over,as said it is all about reading the road ahead and experiance, obviously you will get bullies in waggons but they are in the minority.
I do not drive a waggon for a living .
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
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