Sunflower or vegetable oil - Greg R
Having heard you can use chip fat oil as a substitute for diesel fuel, I was wondering whether you could use new sunflower oil or new vegetable oil? Is veg oil better to use than sunflower oil? Also, can it damage the engine using this as a fuel. Finally, can one mix the diesel with the sunflower/ veg oil safely?

What are the differences between the two oils (diesel vs. sunflower)?



Sunflower or vegetable oil - AngryJonny
I'm sure new oil would be fine, just a lot more expensive. About 50p per litre in big barrels in Tesco. Cheaper than diesel yes, but not all that cheap.

I recall Top Gear demonstrating this some time ago. I gather any oil will do but I don't think it'll mix with diesel. They had to remove all diesel and bleed the fuel system before they did it. I also understand they got better results by mixing 1 part turpentine to 1000 parts oil.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - AngryJonny
Where's that edit button?

Additional:

Of course, if you're going to declare your use of vegetable oil to the Inland Revenue and pay tax on it like a good boy, then you need to get your oil cheaper than 15p a litre or you don't save anything.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - pienmash
tax ,whats that.i always thought that you dont have to tell customs as the oil is already duty paid,i worked in the chemical trade for years and never knew that tax fact,i might have forgotten to remeber that fact or remembered to forget.
pienmash.p.s. i thought that it was industrial methnol/used veg oil(as its thinner)mix.do you mean turps as in turpintine or turps as in white spirit,coz the latter is right.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
Methanol is used to make biodiesel from veg oil, it is NOT used in the fuel, it's used as a reagent in the transesterification process.

If using str8 vegoil, it should be thinned with white spirit, or even gasoline, at around 10% to 90% vegoil. Also best to keep some diesel in there to to keep the smell.

Don't use sunflower oil, rapeseed is best out of those at the supermarket - (usually the cheapest own brand stuff)
Sunflower or vegetable oil - T Lucas
47p a litre at Netto.(limit 6 litres per customer).
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
If using str8 vegoil, it should be thinned with white spirit, or even gasoline, at around 10% to 90% vegoil.

Sorry, that could be interpreted 3 ways - I meant...

10% White spirit to 90% Vegoil or thereabouts.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Oz
This issue has been discussed in previous threads.
Is everyone happy about using what can be described as 'drying oils' for fuel? 'Drying oils' is a paint industry term for oils that have the ability to harden to form a paint-like film, which include some of the above-mentioned.
In the euphoria of lower price per litre, remember the likelihood that these solid films may be building up in your fuel lines.
I hasten to add that I have absolutely NO allegiance to H.M. Customs and Excise, on the contrary I share the average person's total abhorrence of current tax levels.
What it comes down to is: have such commodities been exhaustively tested for problem-free long-term use?
Oz (as was)
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Stuartli
>>47p a litre at Netto (limit 6 litres per customer).>>

Seems someone has cottoned on to what is going on....
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Stuartli
>>>>47p a litre at Netto (limit 6 litres per customer).>>>>

Would be just about enough to get me to Netto and back - if I had a diesel...


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Sunflower or vegetable oil - andymc {P}
"Is veg oil better to use than sunflower oil?"
Depends on viscosity. There are dozens of different types of vegoil - sunflower, peanut, olive, rape, soy, palm, etc. All are hydrocarbons with similar chemical properties to derv and all can be used in varying circumstances as a fuel.

"Also, can it damage the engine using this as a fuel."
Yes, if not used correctly. Long-term use without an appropriate thinner or without mixing in some derv can sometimes lead to gradual coking of the injectors. Also the higher viscosity of vegoil (in comparison to derv) will put additional strain on the fuel pump and affect the spray pattern of injectors.

Vegoils will gel at lower temperatures (try putting some in the fridge, or freezer), which you don't want to happen in your injectors, fuel pump or fuel lines - no real harm done, (except maybe to fuel pump) but you'd have to warm the system up again before being able to start the car. The likelihood of this happening depends on the type of oil - rape oil is quite good even below 5 degrees C, whereas palm oil would be almost like butter at that temperature. This can be overcome either by thinning with an appropriate solvent, by installing a second tank for starting and stopping on derv, or by preheating the fuel system. On the other hand, vegoil-based fuels are far more lubricating than derv, especially ULSD, so if you know what you're doing you'll prolong the life of your engine.

"Finally, can one mix the diesel with the sunflower/ veg oil safely?"
Yes. In fact, to avoid some of the situations above, I'd recommend a derv:vegoil ratio of at least 20:80 if you don't intend modifying your car.

"What are the differences between the two oils (diesel vs. sunflower)?"
Chemically quite similar, although tailpipe emissions from any vegoil will be a lot cleaner than derv in terms of CO, CO2, SO2 and particulates, with NOx about the same. There's more free oxygen in vegoil, so it burns a little more efficiently, compensating somewhat for the slight reduction in power. Smells a lot more pleasant too, like a restaurant or a barbecue.

"I recall Top Gear demonstrating this ... I gather any oil will do but I don't think it'll mix with diesel. They had to remove all diesel and bleed the fuel system before they did it. I also understand they got better results by mixing 1 part turpentine to 1000 parts oil."
The emptying & bleeding of the system was just to prove that the car would start on vegoil - no problem mixing vegoil with derv. It was white spirit rather than turps, but to be honest I wouldn't want anything to combust too explosively in a car designed for compression ignition. White spirit is a generic term which can mean a range of similar substances - I personally think it's too dirty/low grade/potentially harmful to put in a modern diesel engine.

Search the forum for "biodiesel" to find plenty to read about an alternative to both vegoil and derv.

andymc
Sunflower or vegetable oil - dieselhead
Agree rapeseed oil seems to be more suitable than other sorts of oil but have reservations about it's long term use. Have seen reports of the gums it contains causing varnish deposits on pistons resulting in stuck rings and engine damage.
Heard a report that diesel engine oils make this problem worse and that petrol engine oil is better to use with straight veg oil because of higher detergent content.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - BobbyG
No doubt we will soon have someone coming along to justify why we should get Shell vegetable oil instead of supermarket own brand ! :)
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
I've done 37,000 miles on vegetable oil now, taking the mileage up to nearly 160,000 runs sweet as a nut! The injectors, pistons etc.. are free of deposits, and would be classed as clean even if used on normal diesel.

There is a lot of gum in raw oil, however, food grade oil is intensively processed to remove odour, taste, gums (via hot acid wash) and make it lest resistant to oxidation, this makes it much more suitable.

There is a lot of research funded by those who don't want it to catch on, but some countries like Brazil it is widespread.

remember, if you try this, you're a maverick, there is no right and wrong way, no 'official' way, it's more of an art, than a science.

Sunflower or vegetable oil - dieselhead

Agree food grade maybe cleaner but you have to wonder what sort of deposits are left behind when it's heated to high temperatures on injectors etc. Some indirect injection engines that have their oil changed say 2000 miles to prevent the oil clagging up seem to not be too badly affected.

Don't agree that there is alot of resistance to bio-fuel catching in. Major reason it isn't more widely used is the tax on it is too high keeping it to a niche market.
Oil companies are able to turn rapeseed oil into a product that is almost identical to fossil diesel but are prevented because it's not economically worth doing with the current tax situation.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - andymc {P}
That's a bit of a coincidence Sooty, I've done the same mileage on biodiesel in the Leon. Engine running sweeter than ever.

I think a lot of people would be keener to take up the use of biofuels if more manufacturers provided proper engine warranties to include the use of biofuels, and the ridiculous taxation was reduced or eliminated (vegetable oil used as road fuel in the UK is the most highly taxed fuel in the world, as well as being one of the cleanest there are). There has been a little progress with both of these, but it's been very slow.

Here's a link which seems very comprehensive, although I haven't had time to read through it all:
www.vegburner.co.uk/report.html


Vroom, vroom - mmmm, doughnuts

andymc
Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
right, I'm covinced. Off to Makro tomorrow.
No Dosh
Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
Or maybe not.

After following the link earlier in this thread (and propping my eyes open with matchsticks until stupid o\'clock this morning to read it) there are a number of questions I need to answer on the type of fuel system (pump, lines, seals etc) in my car before I start slinging mazola into the tank.

I\'ve put a call in to Alfa Romeo customer service (an oxymoron?) and they are going to look up the relevant technical bulletins on biodiesel compatability and get back to me tomorrow. Will post back when I have a reply.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
Agree food grade maybe cleaner but you have to wonder what sort of deposits are left behind when it's heated to high temperatures on injectors etc.

First, I did test, by heating the oil on a tablespoon with a blowtorch until it reached the smoke point and seeing what deposits were left, not sure if it was a good test, but the oil would boil and seemed to evapourate away, leaving a feint greasey film, that smelled of a used barbeque.

Don't agree that there is alot of resistance to bio-fuel catching in.
I meant from the government and their hidden hand, hence the high tax on it and lack or grants for research or development.

No Dosh, try a dilute mixture first and steadily increase it over afew months.

Also replace the oil and fuel filter more regularly, I do this just as a precaution - not based on any scientific fact.

I have had the cylinder head off my engine twice during ownership, and everything was clean, I mean, it looked predominently silver, with only the odd deposits, like a petrol engine to be honest. My injector tips were so clean, you could rub your finger on them and there would be nothing coming off.

I will take the cylinder head off again within the next couple of months and photograph it all and post back a link on this thread.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
I\'ve put a call in to Alfa Romeo customer service (an
oxymoron?) and they are going to look up the relevant technical
bulletins on biodiesel compatability and get back to me tomorrow.
Will post back when I have a reply.



Well they rang this morning and the answer is..... No Mazola for the JTD. Fiat group recommend no more than 5% biodiesel when mixed with fossil-derived diesel for all their diesel units and note a particular compatibility issue with the JTD range of engines (so bad news for those considering the Fiat derived common rail diesels being developed jointly with GM).

Alfa are going to try and find out precisely where the problem points are in the fuel system and get back to me.

ND
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Cowboy
Dear sir,

I have been reading your "posts" on the use of veg oil with great interest. I am student on the verge of buying an old diesel landrover, for which fuel will be very expensieve foe a man with low income, however I am very keen to run it on oil!! could you possibly direct me to what oil I should use? where I can get such quantities? and the ratio of oil:diesal/spirit??

Do you change you fuel filters regulary?

Any help in this matter would be msot gratefully recieved!

Christopher
Sunflower or vegetable oil - local yokel
Check the facts - it's no cheaper by the time you've paid duty to the Customs. If you run a vehicle without paying fuel duty they can confiscate and crush it..
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Vin {P}
"I've done 37,000 miles on vegetable oil now"

Sooty, do you run on vegoil alone or on biodiesel?

V
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
Vegoil with 10% white spirit, or sometime in winter petrol - but white spirit is better.
I don't have the space to make biodiesel, but I do sometimes get caught short and use all proper diesel, and I do think the car has more power with about 10-20% diesel in the tank with the above vegoil mix, it also completely gets rid of smoke.


If I run Vegoil, I get a pale smoke when I kickdown.
If I run Diesel, I get black smoke when I kick down.
If I run 20% diesel to 80% vegoil mix, I get no detectable smoke on kickdown or haze in the following person's headlights at night.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
I'll just have to remember to stay clear of agricultural shows. HMC&E in Dorset have a habit of dipping diesel cars on the roads around shows. They may be looking for red diesel, but would be just as happy to find you with a tank full of groundnut oil.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - GrumpyOldGit
A suggestion. Don't buy oil. Go around your local food outlets and ask if they have any used oil they want to get rid of. I think you'll find that, as they have to pay to have it taken away, they'll happily let you have it.

Pour it through a couple of layers of cheesecloth to get any big bits out and then mix as previously suggested.

I'm seriously considering buying my first diesel car next time I change simply so I can run it on 'free' fuel. Well, 'free' until the Revenuers catch up.

I wonder what the penalty would be if you got caught by the HMC&E dippers?
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Vin {P}
"I wonder what the penalty would be if you got caught by the HMC&E dippers?"

IIRC, they take the mileage your car has done and work out a worst possible fuel consumption. They then stick you with an invoice for all the duty for that fuel and it's up to you to prove otherwise. They will also prosecute you, so there'll be a fine on top as well.

Not worth it.

V

PS. As for "used fuel oil", other threads have covered this - you'll get animal fats, etc mixed in that may solidify in your fuel system. Not good.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - GrumpyOldGit
Ouch! Diesel drivers - start keeping all your fuel receipts! It will at least make the final bill lower.

There is a very good if technical paper here.

www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/report...f

It's a study in Eire on the feasbility of producing bio fuel from various sources. It concludes that waste cooking oil would be the best to begin with as the start-up costs are low, but in order to be financially viable the fuel would have to attract no duty. (Can't see that happening!)

It's estimated that the EC currently produces some 1 million tonnes of waste cooking oil p.a.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - trancer
"they take the mileage your car has done and work out a worst possible fuel consumption."

Even more of a reason to clock your car. Whenever you fill up, just wind it back to zero as you would with the tripmeter. Are functional odometers required by law?.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Mapmaker
Who would know? MOT test is stationary test (see earlier thread on 'does it matter if my car doesn't work in 3rd gear for the MOT?')

But you wouldn't know when to change your oil.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - misterp
Would a 106d (1996) work ok on rapseed ok ??
Sunflower or vegetable oil - trancer
I found a link on another site advertising a "conversion" kit. It included a seperate tank and a remotely switched flushing system for switching between tanks etc. A system such as this would prevent any discovery by dipping (though they would just have to open your boot to find the second tank) and you could remotely switch back to derv if you were faced with a vehicle checkpoint. Smelly black exhaust would hopefully prevent the inspectors delving any deeper.

www.greasecar.com/
Sunflower or vegetable oil - andymc {P}
This site is US-based, where it's more expensive to run on vegetable oil than on diesel unless you undertake to go to the trouble of collecting, cleaning and filtering used cooking oil. It really is a conversion kit, not an attempt to defraud C&E.

Because vegetable oil becomes very thick and viscous at low temperatures, this system enables you to start on diesel and switch over to veggie oil once the engine is hot. You then switch over to derv again shortly before switching off the engine, so that when you next want to start up the fuel system isn't clogged with the thick and viscous veggie oil. To be honest, I doubt that the conversion costs here would be recouped by the duty evaded - you could be looking at an outlay in excess of £1000 to have the work done.

One final comment - unlike the police, C&E do not require a warrant to search your property if they have reason to suspect duty evasion. So they could look in your boot if they wanted to. It is possible to register with them to pay the duty if you intend to run legitimately on vegetable oil, so you could produce all the necessary paperwork if you were dipped.


andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmmm, doughnuts
Sunflower or vegetable oil - trancer
I only posted it as a means of evading dipping, the seperate tank could be filled with the appropriate veg/spirits mix that would have been in the main tank anyway. The switching capability would only be of use if you saw a roadside checkpoint and wanted to remove your doughnut scented exhaust.

I have no intention of running on veg oil and evading taxes mostly because I don't own a diesel car, but the risks of doing so were mentioned earlier in the thread so I was just thinking of ways to reduce it. If I wanted to do it, a second tank, fuel lines and a switching solenoid would cost significantly less than 1000 GBP if you shopped properly and did the work yourself. The tank wouldn't even have to be mounted in the boot and I have already thought of ways of hiding the tank in such a way that no external visual inspection could ever find it.

Almost makes me want to get a diesel just to try it 8-).
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Onetap
"...if you got caught by the HMC&E dippers?"

HM C&E don't take a sample from the fuel tank, they take a sample at the injectors. They are wise to every trick that people pull to evade the duty and a dummy fuel tank is a very old one.

The penalties are big. You evade the duty at your peril. No wibbling if/when you get caught.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - trancer
Could have sworn I saw them taking a fuel sample from the tank on one of those police/motorway type tv shows, could have been an old one I guess. The van did have red diesel in it and was impounded. A switching system makes even more sense now as you would be able to get regular duty paid derv to your injectors at the flick of a switch, but of course nothing would be completely hidden if they strip your car down.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Sooty Tailpipes
When I have seen them, they dip a stick with some sort of long swab on the end into the tank. Do they really take samples from the injectors? Sounds a well dodgy practice to me, with all the pitfalls of causing damage and not renewing seals etc..
Sunflower or vegetable oil - T Lucas
As far as the C&E are concerned there are no new tricks,they have seen them all.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - NowWheels
C&E are a very very bad outfit to risk a fight with: the powers they have are so wide-ranging that you'll alawys come off worse.

Most people worry about the Inland Revenue, but C&E are much bigger and fiercer, with the legal backing to do you over if they feel like it.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Altea Ego
HM customs and excise is the oldest enforcement organisation in the world, formed in 1642. As such it has the widest range of powers of any enforcment department in the uk. They do not need a search warrant, have wide ranging powers of arrest, and can confiscate goods on the flimsiest excuse.

What is yet to be seen is if these powers will be transfered to that other illustrious body HM inland revenue now the two will be merged. God help us all.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - rtj70
You say C&E worst then Inland Revenue, but they have been one organisation for a while now. No longer HMC&E it is HMRC - Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.

So I guess they are even more powerful and reason not risk being caught.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - C3PO
I am curious as what people think are the chances of being caught though. I think I've seen C&E out and about once in my life, and they were checking a lorry as far as I rememeber. I've certainly never been stopped and neither has anyone I know.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in a car I think you'd be incredibly unlucky to be caught.

I'm not promoting breaking the law here, just pointing out that C&E is probably under-staffed ;-)

Sunflower or vegetable oil - glowplug
I was under the impression that if you loosen the pipes on a PSA HDi then parts have to be replaced because of the extreme pressures involved. Also where do you sample a VW PD diesel? Somehow I don't think this is right, maybe urban legend. But I could be wrong.

Steve.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Robin Reliant
The penalties for getting caught using illegal fuels are greater than just a fine or having to refund what they work out the duty owed to be. You will almost certainly have your car confiscated on the spot, it never be returned to you, and your personal belongings will be dumped on the roadside. When you ask how you are going to get home they will give you the phone number of a local taxi firm if you're lucky.

The chances of getting caught may be small at the moment, but before you do the crime, think whether you are prepared to do the time.

Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
The crime here is in slapping a wholly unjustified level of taxation on a renewable and environmentally low-impact product simply because of it is being used as a fuel.

Motorist = Gordon\'s Wallet

ND
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Malcolm_L
Whilst I agree with Gordon being the financial anti-christ as far as the motorist is concerned, you can't expect motorists running on veggie oil to not pay any tax.

If the government was as green as they claim, (take that as you see fit!) why don't they offer incentives to users of bio-diesel and bio-diesel producers?

This would appease motorists, at least they've been given a choice and the green choice would actually be cheaper, OK so you'd make less money on taxation but you'd also import less crude thus reducing our balance of payments deficit.

That too simple for you Gordon?

No Dosh, you'd also have an italian tractor with italian restaurant exhaust fumes - authentic or what?

Sunflower or vegetable oil - Altea Ego
No dosh puts in a teaspoon of oregano for that athentic smell
Sunflower or vegetable oil - NowWheels
No dosh puts in a teaspoon of oregano for that athentic
smell


and tomatoes too, I hope
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Malcolm_L
and garlic too, gotta have garlic.

Jeez, this more like Mama No dosh's recipe book!
Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
and garlic too, gotta have garlic.
Jeez, this more like Mama No dosh's recipe book!


You don'ta want to be messing witha da Mama No Dosh. Shes a one mean lady.

It seems Alfa have forbidden the use of garlic butter in their tractor lumps. Something to do with a tragic accident involving a party of overweight Americans, a 156 JTD and a large number of breadsticks.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Dynamic Dave
>> No dosh puts in a teaspoon of oregano for that
athentic
>> smell
and tomatoes too, I hope


Personally I thought he'd put some guano in. Certainly smelt like it the last time I got stuck behind his tractor.

Sunflower or vegetable oil - No Do$h
Whilst I agree with Gordon being the financial anti-christ as far
as the motorist is concerned, you can't expect motorists running on
veggie oil to not pay any tax.
If the government was as green as they claim, (take that
as you see fit!) why don't they offer incentives to users
of bio-diesel and bio-diesel producers?
This would appease motorists, at least they've been given a choice
and the green choice would actually be cheaper, OK so you'd
make less money on taxation but you'd also import less crude
thus reducing our balance of payments deficit.
That too simple for you Gordon?


I don't advocate NO tax, but the current level for bio-fuels sucks like a new Dyson. There seems to be no desire to incentivise the use of bio-fuels as the supposed green credentials that back high fuel taxes are, as we know, a smoke screen (pardon the pun).

Gordon doesn't do simple. Gordon likes complex, with an added twist. Less open to scrutiny from the man in the street.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - BrianW
Don't know about veggie oil, but the van I followed down the M11 this morning was chucking out light blue smoke that reeked of paraffin and made your eyes water.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - trancer
Years ago one of my father's clients (a well off farmer/landowner) used to get driven around in an old Land Rover Defender diesel that he ran on straight kerosine which I think is the same thing that you lot call paraffin. You could always tell where he had been as there was usually a large white exhaust cloud following him wherever he went.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Onetap
"I think you'd be incredibly unlucky to be caught."

I have no first-hand experience. A acquaintance, a farmer, was caught in the 70s, but that was in the R. of Ireland.

HM C&E seem to concentrate their efforts on those with access to red diesel. Other posters here have reported C&E turning up with a mobile laboratory in an artic trailer to (negatively) test their fleet vehicles, after they had legitimately bought drums of red diesel for static machinery (one of the Lacey bros?).

Another was detained at a road-block in NI. The actual block was out of sight, due to the traffic jam but he was detained by the motorcycle cops delegated to catch motorists doing U-turns. There is, I believe, a lot of illicit diesel being sold in NI to unwitting motorists. A third reported vehicles on a building site being tested.

Trawler crew (when there were trawlers) and farmers seem to be top of the usual suspects list.

They may dip the tank, they may draw a sample from the injectors, I regret I've never had the pleasure. I'm sure you could fit all the necessary spares and equipment into an artic trailer.


"...if you loosen the pipes on a PSA HDi"

I don't know about the HDi. The fuel supply pipe is high-pressure, but on the BX there was a low pressure fuel return pipe from all 4 injectors to the fuel tank, or the pump inlet. The nylon pipes were a push-fit. I'd take a sample from that, if I had to do the job.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - celt
About the "problem" of coming across the customs man.

Having purchased say 100 litres of vegoil, from a registered refiner, gives the motorist a receipt to show.

I have asked if this system is open to abuse, i.e., motorists buying such a quantity, and then buying a similar amount from asda...

"Who could even contemplate such a thing".

Indeed.

www.vegoilmotoring.com/

Incidentally, has anyone actually seen a prosecution in the last few years???

I have a notion that h.m.g. would not welcome a big, big, court case.

Neither would the oil companies...., however, the car manufacturers, particularly the gwermans and japs, seem to be almost designing vegoil motors.....
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Stuartli
For personal cooking use, sunflower oil is more healthy...:-)

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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Colonel Panic
Sunflower oil will make your pans very gummed up though, and do the same for the car. It's a very 'dirty' oil.

Food grade longlife rapeseed and soyabean are the most suitable (readilt available) for an engine.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - uk2usa
As much as I disagree with the UK governments stance taxation of road fuels, using new vegetable oil as a fuel is not all that environmentally friendly. It uses more than a litre of fossil fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest, process and distribute that litre of veg oil. So even if you powered this entire process using veg oil fuelled machinery, you would not have a net production of oil. Of course, using waste oil as fuel ,either in raw form or converted to biodiesel changes the dynamic considerably.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - SGB
It uses more than a litre
of fossil fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest, process and distribute that

> litre of veg oil.

Interesting point uk2usa. Where did you source that information, any figures to back that up?
Sunflower or vegetable oil - celt
Quote >>>>It uses more than a litre of fossil fuel to plant, fertilize, harvest, process and distribute that litre of veg oil.e....>>>>

Let us see, one olive tree, two stones.... fresh olive oil....

Of course the fact that asia is already running 20% of oil derived power requirements from veg sources to save mineral oils ....

www.agr.gc.ca/mad-dam/e/bulletine/v18e/v18n11_e.htm

The word propoganda comes to mind... and the phrase cui bono...., who benefits from the sales of crude oil.... who benefits from veg oil?

Which brings us to politics.... back to vegoil.... anyone got good info on cheap conversions for vw/audi 140hp redeye? Or pitfalls?
Sunflower or vegetable oil - celt
Oh, and global prices and further chat....forums.biodieselnow.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote...L
Y_ID=52096&TOPIC_ID=5341&FORUM_ID=46


Sunflower or vegetable oil - celt
forums.biodieselnow.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote...6
Sunflower or vegetable oil - uk2usa
Actually there was some controversy regarding the energy balance of biodiesel production. Seems to be in biodiesel's favor now. For an analysis see

biodiesel.grassroots.com/Pimentel_Study_NBB_Respon...t
Sunflower or vegetable oil - oldgit
"Is veg oil better to use than sunflower oil?"
Depends on viscosity. There are dozens of different types of
vegoil - sunflower, peanut, olive, rape, soy, palm, etc. All
are hydrocarbons with similar chemical properties to derv and all can


Sorry, but that's not correct. Vegetable Oils i.e Sunflower, Safflower,Linseed, Olive and Rape etc. etc. are Triglceride esters of various long chain fatty acids and Glycerol and don't have the chemical structure of a n-Hydrocarbon i.e CnH2n+2. They do, of course contain Hydrogen and Carbon atoms but, unlike Hydrocarbons also contain Oxygen atoms. It is the configuration of the elements that determine the nature of the beast, so to speak.
"What are the differences between the two oils (diesel vs. sunflower)?"
Chemically quite similar,>>

This is also incorrect, as Diesel is a by product of Oil refining and is a complex Hydrocarbon mixture I would imagine, whereas Sunflower Oil and other vegetable oils etc. are, as I have explained above.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Thought I might as well bump this thread back up rather than start a new one.

Jut looking for a yes or no from those in the know - going to get hold of 5 or so litre of rapeseed oil, and mix with a full tank of diesel. This is a safe mix isn't it? I'm just curious as to see what happens, for now. I may take it further if I get time.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Hamsafar
Pretty much so. It would have negligible effect on viscosity, will improve lubrication, any buts are not worth mentioning.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Cool - thanks Ashok!
Sunflower or vegetable oil - borasport20
mss1tw - email me at the address in my profile


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Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Sent!
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Have just bought a large bottle (3 litres) of 'vegetable oil' which is apparently rapeseed from Tesco. Ratio will be tiny but I'll let you know if I notice anything. I doubt I'll go much higher than 10% - 15%, it's not for any serious reason.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - DP
I'd love to give this a try, but I'm reliably informed the CAV Rotodiesel pump on my Mondeo will destroy itself if it gets so much as a whiff of veg oil.

Had it had the Bosch pump/fuel system on it, it would be fine apparently.

The dictionary definition of "S*d's law"

Cheers
DP
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
I'm guessing yours is a modern Mondeo DP?
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Craig_1969
Cav pumps will be ok for 10-20% max in summer. At least mine is Mondeo 1.8TD MKII.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - DP
Cav pumps will be ok for 10-20% max in summer. At
least mine is Mondeo 1.8TD MKII.


Interesting, Craig. How long have you been running it on this mix?

Would really love to try it, but I don't want to risk wrecking what is currently a perfectly functioning pump.

Cheers
DP
Sunflower or vegetable oil - DP
It's a very late (Sep 2000) mk2 with the 1.8 Endura DE engine. Apparently, the engine itself is fine on veg oil, but they were fitted with two different types of fuel pump - Bosch and CAV Rotodiesel -. I'm told the Bosch pump is fine, but the rotors in the Rotodiesel pump break up if run on veg oil.

Cheers
DP
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Does anybody know the current duty rate on the following:

Fossil diesel
Biodiesel (Has undergone transesterfication is the term I think)
'Straight' vegetable oil
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Group B
Does anybody know the current duty rate on the following:
Fossil diesel
Biodiesel (Has undergone transesterfication is the term I think)
'Straight' vegetable oil


The current rates are as follows: fossil diesel 47.1p/litre, biodiesel 27.1p/litre. As per the Budget, these rates go up on 1st Sept. 2006 to 48.35p/l and 28.35p/l respectively.

For SVO, HM Revenue and Customs have been demanding the 47.1p/l rate, stating that veg. oil is not a "diesel quality" fuel as it had not been processed to make it suitable for use in all diesel engines (or something like that). Now it sounds like they will accept the biofuel duty rate, but only if the veg. oil meets German standard E-DIN 51605.

www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?...1 (Good forum, have a browse round it).
www.biomotors.co.uk/fuel-duty.html
Sunflower or vegetable oil - Group B
If you're not sure which model Bosch pump it is, you need to take care. EP-VE and VP37 are supposed to be okay on veg. oil. But my Saab has a Bosch VP44 and I was advised on another forum not to risk mine on veg. oil. Apparently the VP44 is also used on some Ford engines, the info I've seen says "Ford Focus", I dont know which engines this applies to.

www.doctordiesel.co.uk/

Rich.
Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
Very good list - does anyone know what the VAG 1.9 TDI non-PD engines use?

Sunflower or vegetable oil - mss1tw
5 litres of rapeseed oil went in the other day, along with some Millers Diesel Power Plus. (It was due for a shot of this anyway), and then topped it off with diesel.

You can't tell the difference - I suppose there's not enough RS oil in there to really make a difference.
 

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