are they re-locating the 45/zs to their newly aquired factory in poland?
As for the honda question surrounding the 45, rover are having to re-design a dash for the car as honda have finally stopped making them.
surely even phoenix can realise you cant use on the same badge a reliable well built luxury 75 and poorly built budget runner the city rover. Why didnt they just brand it an austin city? They cant put this car at the price and the image they are trying to create for it, just dont add up. Couldnt they have just sold tata's cars for them under the tata badge, saving fiddling about with the cars image and suspension - just selling them and racking the profits.
I was told this was an option declined by phoenix who wanted to show the company was serious about its own new models amongst other things.
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Phoenix wanted to show the company was serious about its own new models... by re-badging a Tata?
Shurely shoome mischtake... (C) Lunchtime O'Booze.
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Clarkson panned the City Rover in the Times' "Good Car Bad Car" supplement. He likened it to a rusty drill and leeches in an age of laser guided brain surgery.
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I think 3500's platform dates are a little off, although the 7+7 is pretty typical for platform "recycling".
The 25 platfrom dates from 1989 and the Rover 200/400. Therefore, the new 200 of 1995-96 was about right but it was up for replacement with an all-new platform in 2002.
The 45 platform is also a bit odd as the Rover 400 of 1995 wasn't exactly a new car but very heavily based on the early 90's Honda Domani. Best case it was due for a new car on previous platform in 2002 or looking at the age of the platform an all-new car about now.
The 75 is due for a new car in 2006 (albeit on the 75 platform).
And what do we have? No 25 replacement in sight which is 2 years overdue. The 45 replacement is now scheduled for end of 2005 although it's slipped so many times who knows? And the 75 replacement should be in full development now for launch in 2006. Is it? I doubt it.
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Re. plans to build the 45 in Poland. Why would anyone in Poland want it more than anyone in the UK?
The problem is in Poland is that if someone can afford a new car they'll but a Golf or Focus like anywhere else. If they can't they buy a used Golf or Focus like anywhere else. I can't see an aged Rover 45 having much appeal anywhere in Eastern Europe.
If MGR do buy the Polish factory then they'd need to do what FIAT have done and build a modern, purpose designed car in it.
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The problem is in Poland is that if someone can afford a new car they'll but a Golf or Focus like anywhere else. If they can't they buy a used Golf or Focus like anywhere else.
I agree - I sometimes wonder what planet the MG-Rover management are on.
I travel a lot through Europe including into what was the former Yugoslavia, and the locals there are buying either new VW's, Skoda's or Seat's, or used ones imported from Germany - I doubt if the local Zastava plant would be running now even if it hadn't been bombed during the war. Same applies in Czech republic, too - the locals would rather have an up-to-date modern car.
The 'farm the old model out to a Eastern Europe/Middle East/Asian factory' dates from the 60's and 70's, not the 21st Century, in my view.
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Good old Rover - same as usual, ie.. left behind with old stock. I know of some one that worked for the company and was entiled to a good discount, he would still not by their cars as he saw them as outdated.
I would never buy a Rover as even the Kpreans appear to be making better cars and selling them more competively.
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I certainly wouldn't buy a new 45, but in terms of value for money, a three year old heavily depreciated 45 has got to be a bargain. They may well be behind the competition, but they're not that bad are they?
Ed.
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I certainly wouldn't buy a new 45, but in terms of value for money, a three year old heavily depreciated 45 has got to be a bargain.
Not much of a business model, for a company, though !!!!
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I think you'll find that in recent announcements that the former FSO-Daewoo plant is to make a more cost-effective Rover 75 for export.
As for the 45 in Eastern Europe, if they do, they would be for the Eastern European market which is a very poor relation to Western Europe due to lower earnings.
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>> As for the 45 in Eastern Europe, if they do, theywould be for the Eastern European market which is a very poor relation to Western Europe due to lower earnings.
Umm, but that's my point. If you don't know Eastern Europe there is an assumption that they'll put up with any old crap as long as its cheap. This is completely wrong - they are in fact much MORE brand and value concious than Western Europe.
The idea of fostering off outdated designs became totally redundent in 1990. An aged Rover 45 simply will not sell, even if very cheap. The vast majority of people in Eastern Europe would take a used VW, Skoda or even a Ford imported from Germany or elsewhere rather than an old design from a brand nobody has heard of.
On Monday this week I was in the Ukraine, probably eastern Europe's poorest country. Nobody who could afford a car would touch a Rover 45 with a bargepole as for the few who can afford a decent car its all about image.
I shudder when I hear the R45 to Eastern Europe idea as I honestly wonder if the people considering such a move have ever been there let alone actually got out and tried to judge the market.
As for the 75 export market, well that makes a bit more sense. What, however, doesn't make much sense is building a lowish volume car in two plants. If the Polish factory can do a decent job and is cheaper at some point the question will come up - why build any at all at Longbridge?
And, of course, the 75 replacement is on target for a 2006 launch?
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As per usual there is a lot of rubbish being said about Rover.
As I see it there is plenty of life left in the various Rover platforms with revamped or new bodies.
Afterall do most of the public care or know a car may have old underpinnings as as long as it handles reasonably well does it matter!. Even the big manufacturers carry over platforms isnt the new Astra just a new body on the previous Astra, Doesnt the current Corsa use the old Nova Platform.
Yes MGR need to replace the 45 ASAP however despite its age the Saloon version particularly still looks good to me, much better than many of the latest hatchbacks with a boot stuck on. The 307 saloon is particularly nasty and the new 407 isnt much better.
Even with some fairly moderate updates to the 45 particularly the dashboard and swithgear I think it could be much more saleable until replaced.
I must admit I think the idea of selling old models in eastern europe is highly questionable, and the suggestion that 75's will be built in Poland seems rather bizarre,
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Is there any truth in the rumor about MGR dropping the City Rover ?
They need to start selling products at proper prices, the 25 should be on sale for £6000 and the 45 at £7500.
The 75 is an OK product at an reasonable price, but as with mondeo's/vectra's, many people would rather have a BMW 3 series.
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The 75 is an OK product?
Second only to the BMW 3 in sales, rated higher than the Passat by the owners of the respective cars, 30+ awards including an engineering one in Germany, a quality one in Japan and one for its looks in Italy. Second slowest depreciator in its segment. And in another independent survey 7 out of 10 people preferred the ZT190 to the equivalently priced BMW.
Yeah it's an OK product.
And why should the 25 and 45 be priced lower? They are still a cut above most of their competitors rated in any JD Power survey so why cheapen the brand? The 45 is due a replacement which is no secret and it has affected sales accordingly, no-one would call a ZS180 a bad car for having a 45's underpinnings.
The problem is often misguided perceptions rather than any product quality issues.
And the rumour circulating the Indian stock exchange was just that as TATA flatly denied it saying they were exploring further collabouration with MG Rover.
Finally, the FSO/Daewoo plant could produce MG Rover cars for the Eastern European market and do reasonably well. Cars there tend to be smaller older models with very little in equipment as it is a very price conscious market. MGR could do very well offering well-proven cars with all the bugs ironed out with a higher spec and cheaper than competitors. Believe it or not, most Eastern Europeans having worked in the Baltic states have quite a high opinion of anything British.
This is also true in the former Warsaw bloc as it is largely historically based sharing a mutual mistrust of anything American and also Teutonic for obvious reasons.
After seeing a Rover 75 cruising down Leningradsky Prospekt in Moscow last year, everyone stopped to stare including me as I was getting out of my car at the hotel reception. The porter at the Aerostar wanted to know what it was. 'British' was my reply... he said 'Ah! Rolls Royce.'
I guess that kind of perception wouldn't hurt sales in new money Moscow.
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Check the fact before you write anything 3500S, the Rover 25 & 45 are located very near the bottom of the JD power table. The 25 (6th from bottom) is beat by cars such as the Suzuki Swift. The 45 is also 6th from bottom and cars from Hyundia & Kia are higher.
Source: 2003 What Car JD power survey.
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along with the K-Series engine woes ..... Head gasket failures .... oh, well, will give those jolly Eastern European mechanics something new to repair !
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On the contrary, the Rover 25 was rated 13 places higher than the Pug 206 and 36 places higher than a Fiat Punto in JD 2003 and scored highest in 'Class leading ride and stability' than any other car in its class.
The 45 scored higher than the Pug 307.
And as for the HGF failures, it's an old, old story with a very limited number of engines years ago. If the 1.8 4-pot can power a 75 without problems then it's a strong engine. It is prone to suffer like any engine if the owner's do not look after it.
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If the HG failure is fixed, should HJ amend the Car-by-Car Breakdown for the 25/45 ?
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3500S, what happened to the NG engine ? I remember reading at the time BMW bought Rover Group that the K series engine and its developments was one of the reasons they bought the company ?
I wonder what Rover are going to do for a diesel for 2005, as aren't the diesels in the 25/45 non-Euro4 ?
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Indeed the K-series is a much admired engine, the 1.4 delivers about the same power as a 1.6 but weights in at 95Kg!
NG is a multi-layered modular design with a variable valve control ability.
K-series is a multi-layered modular design with a variable valve control ability.
Draw your own conclusions why BMW kept the engine plant and technology.
As for diesels, it's either the VW plants or it's been mooted that the Ford/PSA units will be taken.
Now a 2.7 V6 190 Ps diesel in the 75 would be a lovely prospect.
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3500S said "They are still a cut above most of their competitors rated in any JD Power survey"
These are the cars the Rover 25 is above in the JP power survey: (its easier to list these than the massive amount above it)
Saxo
206
Seat
Alto
Seicento
Punto
So if the rover 25 is a cut above the rest you must be living on a different planet to the rest of us.
Its also the same with the Rover 45.
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3500S - so Rover NG = BMW valvetronic engine ..... ?!
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So finally the rover 25 will have a sensible sized diesel? will the 1.4 from the fiesta and 206 do?
I cant picture the 45 and the new high-tech 1.6. Think rover might have to settle for the 1.9 from the 206/307 range.
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And as for the HGF failures, it's an old, old story with a very limited number of engines years ago. If the 1.8 4-pot can power a 75 without problems then it's a strong engine. It is prone to suffer like any engine if the owner's do not look after it.
Of course, good old user error...
Which is why there is a web site dedicated to the subject and another where you can join a class action against Rover. There are many people who love their Rovers, MGFs and are willing to put up with this sort of problems, but there are many more who are not.
All I can say is when a mate tells you his car has broken down and you can say "Don't tell me - its Head Gasket Failure! there's a problem.
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The head gasket failure on the K series engine is hardly an old story affecting a limited number of engines. It was featured on BBC Watchdog not that long ago.
The story being that LR Freelanders with defective (Rover) engines are being rectified FOC by new LR owners Ford - even though it, technically, is not their problem. If you are unlucky enough to own an MG or Rover with a knackered engine however, MGR don't want to know.
Incidentally, MGR declined to participate in the programme at the time if I remember rightly
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I see this thread has disappeared up its usual blind alley. Where would the Back Room be without MG Rover?
Daytime TV's got nothing on this one. Bring on Kilroy as the moderator!
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Like 99.9% of us here, I don't know the facts about the K-series head gasket problem so can only give an uninformed opinion ...
It *might* be that it is relatively easy for Ford/LandRover to replace a K-series engine without too much fuss because they can send it back to MG/Rover for replacement at little cost to themselves, whereas the cost to MG/Rover of replacing their own engines in their own cars will be substantial.
I'm sure there was a problem with some of the K-series engines but it seems almost certain that this has been overcome, considering that it continues to be fitted to some quite high performance sports cars where any head gasket weakness would be expected to show up early on.
The K-series has been about for a long time (ten years or more?) and there must be hundreds of thousands in existence. Any weakness in them is bound to look high if Watchdog latch onto it. Remember, Watchdog needs subjects that can be made to look sensational so as to keep viewing numbers high.
We need consumer protection look-outs but Watchdog rides too close to 'sensationalised journalism' in my view. They would do better to concentrate on solid facts backed up by proper statistical analysis. Remember the case where a small scratch on a Lexus needed the whole car respraying to correct it? What a fuss was made about that - but has anyone heard of it happening to any other Lexus? Thought not.
Regarding MG/Rover build quality, my Rover 75 CDT is now 8 months old and has had just one problem, namely a tiny and very intermittent buzz from behind the dashboard. This was corrected under warranty and I was loaned a Rover 25 for the morning. What a horrible little car that seemed after stepping out of the 75! However, I suppose it is aimed at a completely different market and may well fit the bill for some people.
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coming bang up to date ... any comments on today's news (below, from Reuter's website) - is 3,000 a decent total for that period?
MG Rover sells 3,000 Indica cars in UK
Tue 23 March, 2004 17:08
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - MG Rover has sold 3,000 India-made Tata Indica cars in the UK since its launch four months ago, a company official says.
MG Rover signed an agreement in December 2002 with India's Tata Motors to buy 100,000 units of its Indica hatchback car over five years for sale in Europe.
Michael J. Booth, Rover's head for products development, told reporters at a news conference on Tuesday the Indica, which sells as the CityRover in UK, had received good reviews since its launch and its sales would accelerate this year.
"The Super-mini market is a fast-growing segment and we have registered 3,000 (CityRovers) in the last three months," Booth told reporters at a news conference to announce a technology tie-up with India's Sonalika group.
The CityRover will also be introduced in Europe in the next few weeks in six countries -- Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France and Belgium -- after Tata Motors begins making a left-hand drive version of the vehicle, he said.
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For UK sales only, yes, not bad, the plan is 1,650 a month across the UK and Europe.
Bearing in mind they've sold 750 in the UK alone a month, it is encouraging, also supply has been limited and not yet running to full production.
Also, bringing things bang up-to-date. The comments of the same product development manager if they were reported correctly are fairly encouraging.
An agreement for MGR and TATA to work jointly on a replacement to the Indica is expected. TATA have also commissioned IDEA of Turin to do some of the early development work making its first tranche payment only last week. A platform sharing agreement with Proton/Lotus is also expected shortly.
Also MGR looks as if they may have cracked a major engine sales deal involving Powertrain in India.
Rover's plans are for a micro-mini and a super-mini. The big question is will Proton allow Rover to develop a RD60 type car on the Gen2 platform? That would certainly solve their biggest headache, a 45 replacement. Also, another big unanswered question is why have TATA refused to dismiss the Aria platform. This has a dual potential, as a cheap MG Midget but also Ratan Tata's dream of a Indian 'peoples-wagon'.
Interesting times ahead.
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Powertrain has just signed a deal for Sonalika to produce diesel engines in India under licence. The deal also involves Powertrain importing components made by Sonalika to build common-rail engines here (assume a common-rail version of the Rover L-series).
In a separate deal, MG Rover has agreed to provide technical collaboration for a new SUV to be built by Sonalika primarily for the Indian market.
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Sonalika make international tractors and have a renault collaberation in India
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Sonalika make international tractors and have a renault collaberation in India
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