Hope the admins don't mind me putting this under a separate topic than 'Snow'...
Last year, when I got to spend a super-soaraway night on the M11 (!), I was suprised NOT to read in any of the media the next day that the cause of all the jams on the M11 were jack-knifed lorries. As readers will remember, we had wet-ish weather followed by freeze/snow = ice rink. What happened then was the lorries all bashed there merry way up the hills, overtaking each other, lost traction - hey presto, instant jam ! The scene half way between Stansted & Cambridge looked like something out of a war zone - 4 lorries at one point, all over the place.
Fast-forward to Wednesday night. Drivers stuck on the M25/M11. And the cause - jacknifed lorries !! Luckily, I took the A1M, although very slow (7 hours London-Cambridge), at least I got home IN THE NIGHT.
What was incredible was, whilst I drove, watching several lorries overtaking other, slower-moving lorries, up inclines on the A1m ! If they had slipped, both lanes would have been closed.
Why can't the law be changed to allow the police to put up those elctronic noticeboards with 'ALL LORRIES ONTO THE HARD-SHOULDER NOW!' or something.
I know this wouldn't help the chaos that occured in the built-up towns and cities, but it would solve the motorway problems that occur.
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Arnold, you obviously don't realise that lorry (sorry, truck, sounds more macho) drivers are the 'knights of the road' and so much better at driving than ordinary mortals. Every lorry driver I've ever talked to has thought that as they drive all day, every day, that makes them an expert driver. It doesn't occur to them that they may be driving badly all day, every day.
I'm sure there are some excellent lorry drivers out there but judging from the chaos caused by snow, not enough. Of course, the same can be said of car drivers too, except me, cos I'm a knight of the road ;-)
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www.iht.com/articles/127315.html
..."In northern France, snowfall of up to 10 centimeters, or 4 inches, overnight caused some disruptions to morning rush hour, with heavy-goods vehicles banned from using highways in the region for much of the morning. "
In Germany, lorries aren't allowed to overtake in ANY conditions during the rush-hour ....
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I made a similar point in the Snow and Ice thread. In my experience(under snowy conditions) most blocked roads are due initially to jack-knifed trucks. Then it doesn't matter if you have a 4WD or snow chains you are stuck behind them.
However an Artic does not to be overtaking to jack-knife and spread itself over the width of the road - they usually manage that all by themselves.
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Lot's of criticism for lorry drivers in this thread. If driving ability could be calculated on a mistakes per mile basis, I wonder how the average 6k-10k miles a year commutor would compare against the average 60k plus miles of a van or lorry driver.
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Fair enough, but...
The profile of the 60k miles driven by truckers is rather different to the profile of your average communter. How would the trucker fare if the 60k miles wasn't mainly motorways and major A roads but had a mini-roundabout etc every 500 yards?
In my experience, truckers are just like most drivers in that some are very good and some are pfds with an attitude to match. The problem is that when conditions are bad the pfds suddenly realise why the rest are driving more calmly and stand out like a sore thumb. Then, everyone remembers the one that jacknifed and forgets the 99 that didn't.
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I've seen an article somewhere that stated that for drivers below retirement age, your chances of an accident roughtly halve with every 70,000 miles you drive, simply because you're gaining more and more experience. By that score lorry drivers should be (and generally are) amongst the best drivers on the road.
V
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The level of skill of lorry drivers is hardly the point, it is the inherent instability of their vehicles that is the problem. They are large, heavy, lacking manoeuvrability, with braking distances many times longer than cars and prone to jack-knifing in the conditions referred to in this thread.
No matter how skilled you cannot overcome the laws of physics and IMO many HGV drivers ignore that - at our peril.
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I take exception to that last point, (The level of skill of lorry drivers is hardly the point.) as I am one of those Knights of the Road.
I spent a good deal of my own money to pass a test some years ago,which was laid down by our Government,in order that I may get my licence.Many a time I have had sarcastic comments like, 'You'll get that in there driver,we have vehicles like this here all the time.' To which I reply with a quote of, 'If you can do it any better,then here are the keys.' You'd be surprised how many walk away with their tails between their legs.So skill is a point.
As for the second point,(It's the inherent instability of their vehicles that is the problem.) yes to some degree I would agree with that,but then again,we don't design them,only drive them,so inevitably,accidents will occur.
However.Modern design now incorporates anti jack knifing devices on trucks,and while this will take time for the 'old stock' to be phased out due to age,instances of jack knifing,are getting fewer.
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Quinny,
What is sarcastic in saying that the level of skill is not the point?
What I am saying is that no matter how skilled the driver he cannot, for instance, reduce the braking distance of a lorry to that of a car.
Secondly it is no consolation to say "we don't design them, only drive them, so inevitably, accidents will occur."
Except for the very rare cases of mechanical malfunction, most accidents are caused by driver error. IMO the most common error committed by 'Knights of the Road' is to drive their lorries without due regard to their vehicle's limitations.
C
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