|
Clarkson said on Top Gear a couple of weeks ago that his Merc is always in the dealer being fixed. He also said that "it goes into the dealer broken and comes out more broken" So expensive isn't always best. Mercedes have taken a battering recently concerning their build quality.
|
I have always thought of Vauxhalls as being better than Ford when it comes to quality and reliability. The new Vectra does get good reviews.
Don't believe Toyota-I have had a new Corolla for nearly a year and it isn't the quality Toyota reckon they are.
|
of course vauxhalls are better that ford, ford are american, and vauxhalls used to be british till a few years back when moved over seas, so i am led to belive
Yes, well enough of that jingoistic nonsense please. Ever heard of General Motors? Owned Vauxhall for, oooh, years now. American I understand......
ND
mailto:Alan_moderator@honestjohh.co.uk
|
vauxhalls used to be british till a few years back when moved over seas, so i am led to belive
So how come when my my Dad bought a brand new mk1 Astra (1982), it had a sticker on the window saying built and assembled in Germany?
|
ahh well i was told wrong, but then its like toys and thing, take the england flag for the football world cup, most say made in taiwan. and things like that, i think all makes have good and bad points, and vauxhalls is the lack of design idea on interior, but then look at renault. what is it with the weird shaped back on the megan? and ford, well bring back the escort. bmw, well take the bmw badge off what have you a rover
|
"take the england flag for the football world cup"
Even that is a recycled import. Did you see the recent pictures from Tiblisi, Georgia (ExUSSR. A scaringly similar flag. Georgia(geddit)clue is in the name.
|
|
|
|
Vauxhall has been wholly owned by GM since around 1925; IIRC. I suppose you could say they were still pretty much 'British' cars until the advent of the likes of the Chevette, which I think was the first pan-european GM design.
I would say that the Ecotec engines are much more complex and less reliable than the Family II engines, which were pretty much bomb-proof provided they had regular oil changes. Personally I regarded the 1990 Cavlier I've just pensioned off as the last car where I stood some chance of fixing it myself ;-(.
Would I buy a brand new Vauxhall? probably not; I know you can prove what you like with statistics (that's my day job), but the Jap. stuff does seem more reliable in general. Of course this doesn't guarantee that every Jap. car will run forever & every Vauxhall will break down!
Spam '2 omegas' Can......
|
|
Hardly a subjective test. The Office Cavalier is a fine motor. The Toyota it replaced was more reliable but the bits for the Cavalier re so much cheaper.
|
If we only ever bought cars on the basis of their reliability then everyone would be driving Japanese. But we don't, because cars appeal in many ways.
A journalist wrote, shortly after driving the first VW Golf, that it was such a good all-rounder that he wondered why anyone would bother with anything else. People are more complex and varied than that - thankfully.
|
|
|
My in laws have had a 1.6 club for 3 years. It's a fine car, they've had no reliability problems with it.
It's got a nice composed drive and the new model should push the s/h prices down further. I'd buy one of these over the Focus.
|
Japanese cars do seem more reliable, but they are often awful. in my opinion.. some of my otherwise wonderful muslim colleagues all seem to drive Toyotas and Nissans, and I am occasionally a passenger in them to move to meetings at other sites. They are nearly new, yet seem very old-fashioned, and trimmed out inside like an old minibus. We have a rubber bellow on a van gearstick here! One Toyota I went in had leather seats, well, I could have made them better myself! The stitching was appauling, and the leather was saggy, ruching (sp?), and not tailored correctly. The headlights may be reliable, but they are woeful.. There's just something about them you can't quite put your finger on..... Like a new build house, on paper they look good, they have no maintenence, with plastic facias and windows, wall insulation etc... but they just seem inferior and less substantial than an old house. The breeze blocks and stud partitioning and strand-board floors are like the polyvinylchloride, polyester and thin-guage steel of the japamese car.
Do you also want tto turn up somewhere looking like a bogus minicab?
|
Japanese cars (and I've owned several) are bulletproof reliable but seem to lack some indefinable quality that Euro cars have. Call it character perhaps - they tend towards bland efficiency, like a good washing machine or microwave oven.
I know there are honourable exceptions but they are few. You don't get attached to them or really like them very much but appreciate that they'll probably not let you down. Let's face it - that's all most people want from a car.
|
Japanese cars (and I've owned several) are bulletproof reliable but seem to lack some indefinable quality that Euro cars have. Call it character perhaps - they tend towards bland efficiency, like a good washing machine or microwave oven. I know there are honourable exceptions but they are few. You don't get attached to them or really like them very much but appreciate that they'll probably not let you down. Let's face it - that's all most people want from a car.
Ah, character? I used to own a an Alfa-Romeo and was a member of the Owners' Club. I used to get a newsletter that frequently mentioned how characterful AR's were. I eventually concluded that meant that bits fell off, oil leaked, there was a 'trick' to getting the car started, and various odd cluncks and rattles appeared from time to time, etc etc. Yes, certainly characterful, but in the end I got to prefer 'bland efficiency'.
|
What!!!
Subaru Impreza Turbo
Nissan 200 SX
Mitsubishi Evo
Toyota MR2
Mazda MX5
Any Type-R Honda
Mazda RX-7 or RX-8
Subaru Legacy
Nissan Skyline
Honda S2000
Toyota Supra
The above list contains saloons, coupes, hatchbacks and roadsters and is a petrolhead's delight. Everything except people carriers. If these cars lack character and 'tend towards bland eficiency', then that will do for me.
You have obviously been buying the wrong Japanese cars, Alan...
|
Thats a good description Sooty. During my recent saga when I had a curtesy car thay gave me a brand new Micra and no doubt as everyone tells me on the site and in reliability indexes is amazingly good. But...I got exactly the same impression as you describe so well. On different road surfaces it behaved differently to a European car in some way. The doors clanged like a dustbin and the seats felt like an old deck chair.
At 65mph without checking the speedo I would have estimated I was doing 75. If felt so bland and different. My wife asked "would you have one of these" And I had to say "no! I prefer the old Nova you used to have"
Earlier this year had a Mazda Demio as a holiday hire car and that didn't impress either.
And having had one ot two Vauxhalls over the years I've never had much trouble with them. If one was just buying a car purely as a tool I think it would have to be Japanese but if it was something to have an affinity with never..
|
|
having said all that I suddenly recall we once had a Triumph Accord CD many years ago and that was a lovely car and was I think a Honda Ballade (or similar) rebadged.
|
Yes, but (equally) I was given an old shape Vectra loan car last time someone drove into me, and it was frankly appalling. Engine & interior was ok but the gearbox was deeply unpleasant and as for the ride, well lest just say its about 20 years since I last felt carsick. And I was driving.
I also know of a trader whose SWMBO's best friend drives a Nova; he has forbidden her from accepting lifts for the simple reason that the local bodyshop is behind his showroom and he sees the state of all the incoming crash wrecks from the local area.
|
Whatever is written on here really makes no odds. Unless the European motor industry improves its act many EU producers will be out of business within 20 years. EU brands such as Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Fiat are mainly kept in business by patriotic domestic markets. On the world market they fail to compete and sell in tiny numbers outside of the EU.
It is nonsense to suggest that the Japanese do not design involving and characterful cars. The MX5 is the worlds best selling sportscar (about 700,000 sold) and the RX8 is a very innovative machine in all manner of aspects; and how about the Subaru Imprezza? As to trim standards - well, take a look at a new Accord or Mazda 6 and then tell me of a French/Italian/British car which has better trim fit and finish.
In my driveway I have at the moment a Nissan QX and a MB C-class sat side-by-side. I prefer the dash layout of the QX, but the seat trim on the C-class is better. The standard of engineering on the QX is impeccable; the engine is a work of art (V6 with 24 valves and four chain-driven cams) and IMHO compares as an equal with any similar engine made by MB or BMW (and I have driven many of them). There is a 3.5l turbo version of this engine which I have never seen, but would love to try.
The humble last-generation Nissan Primera was dull to look at, but a great drive. The 2.0i chain-cam SR20DE engine was a classic and the excellent suspension design gives really good handling and road-holding.
One of the major reasons why we are not all driving Japanese cars is the past long-term voluntary limits on imports (11% market share) and the big company car market in the UK (which has always be biassed toward domestic/european cars).
It is interesting to note that the 'big players' are now using Japanese engineering designers. Most of Ford's engines are now Japanese designed (e.g. the Duratec was designed in Hiroshima) and a lot of the new Mondeo's engine management system was designed in Japan.
I'm not saying that Japanese design is a panacea - far from it, they do get things wrong sometimes. However, they do have a lot of experience in manufacturing vehicles for markets where high quality is essential (e.g. a demanding domestic market and a very demanding export market in the USA) and where reliability/durability is important and operating conditions are very harsh (e.g. much or Asia, Australia, East Africa).
For reasons best know to themselves (perhaps political reasons), the Japanese have not yet mounted an offensive on the European prestige car segment. Only Lexus sells here (and sells pretty well, with low-key marketing). The Infiniti and Accura brands have not been brought in as yet, but I can tell you that when MB and BMW are doing competitor analysis work these are the cars that they are benchmarking against.
|
Okay... for the person talking about Japanese cars and using the example of the Mazda Demio and the 'brand new' Micra: the Micra could have been an '03 plate old shape, a design which was introduced when the Nova was still (just) in production and the Demio was always carp.
But, for what it's worth, would I buy a Vauxhall? Yes, in the unlikely event that
a. the local dealer happened to be one of the few with a good reputation
b. I liked the car - I find most Vauxhalls bland, but the same applies to many Jap cars and if you like it, that's no problem and
c. it wasn't going to lose money hand over fist. Compare the residuals of an Astra to a Focus, Golf or even 307 and you'll see what I mean.
If I were getting a Vauxhall, it'd probably be a six month old ex-rental, whereby you'd probably pay £7k for an Astra, £5500 for a Corsa or £9k for a Vectra. Many of Vauxhall's dealer offers just can't compete, certainly not without a huge additional discount from the dealer.
I'm actually quite fond of the Zafira and Omega, by the way, so I'm not anti-Vauxhall, but I can only give them a very qualified thumbs up.
|
Thanks, helpful and informative...but a bit of a mixed bag !
I am still not sure if I'll buy one next month. The ReliabilityIndex survey has Vauxhall in 5th place.
But just how 'reliable' is that survey, can we trust it 100%
or is it flawed ? any views on that welcome
Reminder: the top 10 are 1) Mazda 2) Ford 3) Honda
4) Toyota 5) Vauxhall 6) Hyundai 7) Peugeot
8) Nissan 9) Fiat 10) Volvo
Also someone mentioned one of the Car Mags' own survey for reliability. Who remembers the results ? I'd be interested
Yes I know that there is more to a car than boring reliability BUT a)to me, 'character' in all new cars -in the £10/£12K segment anyway- has long gone and b) after owning Alfas and LandRovers I only want sthg reliable !
Thanks, Catalyst
|
|
How Mazda can be top, beats me, I and a collegue both bought 3 year old 626s, they were appaulling, and online forums showed we weren't the only ones. Maybe it depends how long you'll keep the car....Maybe a Mazda is better during the first year, and is to be disposed of after 3?
|
|
One has to admit that the 626 was not the best Japanese car. This was due largely to Ford interfering in the design. The car acquired a very bad reputation in the US due to the fact that most were ordered as automatics. The 626 used the Ford CD4E autobox which soon acquired a reputation for blowing up at about 60k miles in a 626 (didn't last much longer in a Mondeo/Contour/Mystique)!.
|
still wondering what will replace my Lexus ...
want medium-size hatchback with front wheel drive, and Japanese reliability. Don't like looks of Nissan Primera or Toyota Avensis; wld buy Accord, but no fifth door; Mazda 6 exterior looks almost good as Accord, but has cheap looking, nasty interior (thanks Ford?); avoiding VW or Audi for questionable reliability, overpriced products and arrogant, too often inefficient dealers; Vauxhall reliability too risky, as is French and Italian stuff (would love an Alfa 147).
Hey, I suddenly notice that Ford is back up there in the higher ratings for fewer breakdowns, and a new Focus arrives this summer. I shall wait and have a good look! Just hope they get the interior right this time.
EH
|
Had an Astra 1.4 since nearly new. An ex daily rental. Slow but very reliable. Needed two rear exhaust silencers at £34 each and still has one original tyre at 73000 miles. Worth now almost nothing and so will keep it. Not a car to get excited about it just works.
Peter C
|
"What!!!
Subaru Impreza Turbo
Nissan 200 SX
Mitsubishi Evo
Toyota MR2
Mazda MX5
Any Type-R Honda
Mazda RX-7 or RX-8
Subaru Legacy
Nissan Skyline
Honda S2000
Toyota Supra "
And someone else mentioned the MX5, RX8, Qx, Lexus etc - but the original question by Catalyst was about the Corsa or Astra which are not quite the same league as those above. So which equivalent Japanese car would you guys advise buying instead of the Corsa or Astra? I have no axe to grind - I'd just like to know! As would Catalyst I suspect!
|
|
There's the survey over on the AutoExpress web site for starters(under the 'specials' part of the web site). It's a 3Mb pdf file, so may take a while to download via dial-up.
|
Dear old Vauxhall/Opel had the uncanny knack of turning out some real turkeys in the 90s. The Tigra (based on the old Corsa, but a real headache if you got a wrong 'un) and the Frontera (no fun to drive and no fun to own) stand out in my mind.
There haven't been too many bad ones recently, but I have my hopes pinned on the new convertable Tigra which has a folding metal roof from the same company who did the roof for the Peugeot 206cc. We will never know if the Signum is bad because there won't be anyone to tell us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
