306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
Hi Guys!

Just last week I traded in my 1.2 Clio for a 306 HDi D-Turbo. What a cracking car it is too!! However I have a few technical questions regarding it -

1. There seems to be a weird whining noise (not the turbo!!) from under the bonnet, its sounds like the alternator but I am not sure (there is so much packed under the bonnet for the HDi engine I am not sure - no haynes manual either yet grrr) - the car has done 75k so should the alternator be worn after that?? The car is a W reg 2000.

2. When I drove away from my parents house today my dad noticed blue smoke from the exhaust as I pulled away - When I got home I let the car cool down, started it up again with girlfriend obligingly standing behind and she said she saw no blue smoke from the exhaust...The Oil level indicator in the car shows full to the brim, and the dipstick shows oil past the top level. Have the numpties at Peugeot simply over filled it with oil when they did the service (forgot to mention its a dealer bought car - they serviced, MOT'd and did the Cam Belt) ?

I cant belive it is an oil burner at 75k, unless its last owner ragged the proverbials off it every time they drove it. Someone mentioned to me about HDi's getting valve guide wear if they are thrashed but I am not sure about that - Anyone got any thoughts or am I just paranoid!

Thanks

:O) - Rob
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - DL
HDi D-Turbo? No such model in HDi guise. There was a D turbo 306 but not with the HDi engine.

Your chassis number would help identify what engine you have.

How old is the car?

Rob - I'm sure you have nothing to worry about mate; a cracking car.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Rob - I always assumed the whirring from behind the dash was the pump for the high-pressure injection system? Which is one reason why one needn't wait for the HDi's glow-plugs to heat up. And Parkers thinks there are enough D-turbo HDi cars to list them.

Smoke - your car has been fairly busy in its 3 years, I suppose it might burn some oil - you'll have to wait and see. Mine doesn't.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
DL - They DO do a HDi D-Turbo :) they also do a 206, 306 estate, 307, 307 SW etc etc - D Turbo is just the trim.. Pre T reg D-Turbo meant the trim + the XUDT engine...sorry :)

Andrew T - Yep I can heard the whirring from behind the dash and they fitted a fuel line dampner before I picked the car up and that noise was gone. The noise is definatly from the alternator..

I took it back to the dealers today and they say HDi engines are renound for having noisy alternators but they have booked it in tommorow to look at the car. Peugeot Numpty number 1 came from the workshop, looked at the car and said "Nothing wrong with that mate" only to be joined by Peugeot Numpty number 2 who promptly told me to book it in!! "Blue smoke is not normal guvnor" he says so I will wait and see..

I've seen Taxi versions of this car that have done 140k+ and they dont smoke like mine.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Incidentally, Rob, I got back yesterday from a 350-mile cross-country trip ('inter-urban driving' I should think) and find that the car covered 850±15 miles on the last 60 litres. That is over 14 m/l or 64 mpg, close to the claimed 65.7 for the HDi engine. See what you get.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
I have used a single tank in mine since last wednesday when I got it, and its lasted 809 miles so I guess I am getting pretty similar MPG...

Also I noticed my engine runs at nearly 80 on the temp guage is this normal ?
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
Update (again)

Just went to do an on site visit from work and one of the techies noticed blue + white smoke from the exhaust as I started the car..grr I dare not question girlfriends eyesight!!

306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Rob - mine also runs at about 79°, but I don't expect readings to be very accurate.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - DL
Oh well, you learn somethin' new every day!

I'll keep an eye out for one....
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
Update!!

Right Car has been with the "dealer" for the past day. They seem to say that the awful noise from under the bonnet was due to the fact the did the cambelt tensioner up too tight, therefore the cam belt was on too tight. They are gonna have to strip down my engine to find out whats wrong, but they "suspect it is the head gasket".

Dont get me wrong but surely it would just use water and a little oil if the head gasket was gone, and I would have noticed a loss of performance?? It certainly went like stink the last time I drove it :s - According to the peugeot numptys its used nearly the entire sump of oil since last wednesday / 809 miles - That cant be a sign of a healthy engine?

Are they feeding me horse carp?? They say if the head gasket is gone they will skim the head if it needs it and all my problems will go away. Hmm I am not convinced the "customer advisor" looked to be squirming in his seat somewhat when I asked all the right questions. I asked for him to sign off the work and what was done in writing when he returns the car to me, but he got very excited and said he would have to "ask his boss as they dont normally do that sort of thing" - I wonder why ??

Any ideas chaps I have no idea about HDi engines (this is the newest car I have owned) - I am kinda stuck now tho as they have my car in bits - assuming they can "fit it in" today grrr

Help!!

:O) - Rob
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - AN Other
Sorry Rob, but I had the same symptoms on a Golf GTI I once owned. It still ran fine, but used oil as if it had just invaded Iraq - a sumpful in one week. It was only towards the end of the week that I noticed the build up of Guinness-like engine oil in the expansion tank. Not good.

Whether a head gasket blow uses oil, water or means a loss of power depends on exactly where the gasket has blown. Mine had obviously blown in such a way that a reasonable amount of compression was maintained, but a pathway had been opened between oil galleries and water jacket, and since the oil was at higher pressure...

For what it's worth, following the inevitable head skim, my Golf never ran as smoothly or quietly as before. It seemed a little more powerful (higher CR, I guess), but I preferred it as was.

I would have thought the HDi engines run tighter tolerances than my old Golf, and someone else here might know how they react to a head skim. I'm guessing the car's still under warranty, so just make sure you're really happy with anything they do to it...
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
I guess it could have gone near one of the bores and is dumping oil that way....

Anyone with any extra clue about HDi's and Head skimming etc etc any advice is greatly apreciated!

:O) - Rob

PS. They will soon get fed up with me taking it back if its not right - if they cant sort it then they will have to find me another engine / car :)
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Rob - sorry to hear about your problem. Perhaps explains your good fuel consumption: 810 miles on 60 litres diesel + 3 litres oil !
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
hehe True! Will keep you all posted as to what happens when they phone me later
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - RichardW
Rob,

The HDi engine, is AFAIK similar in construction the old XUD unit - eg cast iron block with alloy head, single OH camshaft with bucket tappets. The main difference is that there is no pre-injection swirl chamber and the injector leads directly into the cylinder. It is unusual for the XUD to lose oil if the head gasket goes - they normally just use water and/or leak oil down the back of the block. Not to say of course that revised oil galleries etc in the HDI don't mean it does lose oil. XUD heads are well known for warping if they are allowed to overheat, but they can be skimmed back if not too bad. I'd imagine the HDi head will be similar. AS yours hasn't got hot, I would expect it to be pretty flat, and just a very light skim will remove all the muck and give the best chance of it not leaking again when rebuilt. It could be something else as well though - like a valve stem seal or something (not sure if HDi have these - probably - the latest of the XUDs do I think). Might be worth getting the head pressure tested / x-rayed to make sure there are no nasty cracks lurking about....


RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
I had thought of that - Can I ask the dealers if they have pressure tested the head / x-rayed it ? - I would imagine they would do this anyway to hopefully resolve the problem :s Just about to go phone them as they said to phone and they will tell me the EXACT fault.

:O) - Rob
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Rob, Richard - is it just possible that the previous owner traded the car in aware of the problem, and the dealer fettled it up and sold it on in good faith? So the head may have been overheated previously?
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - DL
From direct experience, people usually change their cars for a REASON......
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - RichardW
Hmm, that thought had crossed my mind.... Cambelt apparently too tight, using oil - I wondered if it has had a cam belt failure badly repaired. Anyway, as long as the garage does the job properly this time (and Rob doesn't have to pay for it!) it should be OK. I think he will be OK as he took it straight back, so will have good grounds to get his money back if all ends up pear shaped.

Rob - I hope you get it back together as you seemed otherwise pleased with this motor! Just wish I could afford an HDi....


RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
I had come to a similar conclusion about the car being sold for a "reason" - Am gonna phone them in a minute and find out what they have found!

My HDi cost £6195 - W reg, 75k - Not a bad price I didnt think considering they gave me a good trade in price for my Clio...

306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
Welcome to excuse central!!!

I phoned the dealer a moment ago who had this response for me

"Right, we have taken the engine out of your car and removed the cylinder head, and the head gasket is indeed gone, but it seems that one of the valves is lower down in its seating than the others and this is causing it to flood the exhaust with water, hence the blue and white smoke - We are deciding what to do but you may need a complete new head"

Fair enough on the new head bit - but Flooding the exhaust with water?? hmm I am not so sure - What would you guys do - reject the car as I only had it four days or demand they replace the cylinder head??

:O) - Rob
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Andrew-T
Not being very clever at diagnosing engine problems, I would have been surprised if any valves were seriously wrong when the car appeared to be performing well apart from the oil seepage. Although the car's novelty excitement will have dulled somewhat, I would probably go for repair rather than rejection - assuming it will not cost.
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - madf
Hmm.. I would tend to agree with a previous poster: the cambelt may have gone and valves hit a psiton.. hence the valve not seating properly.

I would ask to see the engine and look at the pistons: if there is ANY damage on any the engine should be replaced..
madf
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Jono_99
Rob,

Not sure whether you can reject the car at this point in time - they are apparently putting it right, and therefore you may have to let them have a go at putting it right. If you think you *might" wish to reject the car in the future, then I would try and create an environment where that is likely, and that means getting things in writing. It is a pain, and comes across as officious, but if the car is not returned to the condition it should have been in as a W plate 75K mile car (i.e. the one you thought you were buying), then it is worth getting something official down now.

Link below is another about rejecting cars, including a post from HJ about the actual legislation. I have skimmed this, and it appears that the vendor has the right to put the vehicle right (if that makes sense).

Having rejected a car this year (X plate, 35K miles) and gone through the process, it was the vendor failing to put it right (or more exactly, into a position that I would expect of a car of that age / mileage) that resolved it for me.

Good luck

Jono

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=16...4
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - clachnacudden
Sorry to Jump in Rob...

Richard w is the XUD engine not really up to much then?, I have a 1.9D in a Pug 206...

Rob...Hassle the dealers mate, letters etc, it worked for me (try to find out if they are part of any trading standards agency, for example)..

Good luck,
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - M.M
clachnacudden,

There tends to be much comment here when folks are looking at newer Pug/Cit diesels to say.."Make sure you get the HDi not the old 1.9D/TD". Fair enough because the HDi is quicker and uses less fuel. But rest assured the XUD was one of the major milestones in getting the public buying diesel engines....a classic that still makes very good sense today for reliability and cheap maintenance.


Rob,

This has disaster written all over it. The head gasket shouldn't go at 75K. I'd wonder has it been clocked, caned or not maintained? Then the valve thing...does sound like post cambelt break damage. Cambelt snapped, new belt fitted without repairs and traded in?? What are the rest of the mechanics going to be like?

If they repair it do you think they will do it to new standards to give the engine a proper 200,000mls plus potential? Or will they do the minimum to get you off their backs for a year?

I would try hard and push them in a corner to refund or change this car.

There is an additional factor that makes me say it...the price. I cannot bring myself to tell you what this would fetch in auction as the high miler that it is...just look round the value sites (Parkers etc) and work it out. Basically you've paid dear for a vehicle that should have covered under 40K but it's done twice that. This "good trade in price" method is so typical for hiding an overpriced car.

You must have commented on the high mileage when purchasing, what did the salesman tell you to put your mind at rest? Because if he reassured you with their ability to cruise up to high mileages without trouble then his description of this car has been proved wrong already. Something to factor in with the rejection discussions.

Sorry this is a little negative.

Good luck.

M.M
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - RichardW
Consider this - this XUD was first used in large numbers in about 1984 / 85. Since then around 8 million units have been built, many have covered 300,000 miles, and PSA continue to build them and fit them to both cars and vans. The engine is excellent (considering when it was designed!) - quiet, refined, economical, long lived - but not overly tolerant of lack of maintenance (oil and coolant changes required at the correct intervals). Cambelt intervals are long, and failures almost unheard of (unless not changed on time!), and new tensioner is only required (possibly) after 150,000 miles.

The weak point (if there is one!) is that the head gasket on turbo units is a bit prone to failure, and if not caught early, or the engine is allowed to overheat, the head will warp and may crack, and may then be scrap.


RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - RichardW
Sniff, sniff, what's that I can smell????

It sounds like it has dropped and or bent a valve and this has punctured the head letting the water / oil into the cylinder. A valve sitting lower in the head will not in itself cause a water/oil leak, but it will if the head is damaged. I would insist on a new head. As long as it is rebuilt carefully it should be OK.

You probably have enough grounds to reject it, but this might take some time and aggro to get your money back. Once properly rebuilt there should be no problems. You have to ask of course, if the engine was allowed to get into this state, what other maintenance was skimped on??


RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
306 HDi - Smoke normal ?? - Rob
Went down and had a nice chat with the lads at pegeot today - I bypassed the service desk and went straight in to the workshop hehehe

They have indeed removed the entire engine from my car - Guy working on my car said this :-

"Your head is screwed mate - someone bodged a head gasket repair and something must have happened for that valve - I cant say what because I didnt see the car before you brought it in. We have ordered a new head for you. We will compression test it but the rest of your motor is sound so hopefully all your problems will be solved. Did you know the coolant levels were almost empty ?" - No I didnt is the answer - He showed me the bores and pistons and they AFAIK looked ok. he refered to the service manager as "D***child" which bodes well for their customer service.

At least they are going to fix it properly, and they guy I spoke too seemed pretty sound and he clearly disliked the service department as much as I do hehe.

Do any of you know of a good independent place in Cornwall for checking HDi engines / cars - or indeed do any of you live near cornwall that I could call upon to have a look at it when I get it back ??

:O) - Rob
 

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