Legal definition of hands-free? - Nsar
Hi, I've tried searching the BR but nothing exactly matches. I'm trying to find out what the legal defintion of hands-free will be when the law changes on Dec 1st. Holding the phone to your ear clearly isn't, but if you've got an ear-piece and you've received a call by pressing any button answer is that no-go? What is you've pressed re-dial to make a call whilst using an earpiece? Are dangling ear-pieces going to be outlawed and only fixed dashboard/thru the radio systems going to be allowed?

I'm not after a debate on the rights and wrongs of mobile use behind the wheel, simply a definiton in layman's terms of what the law will say.
Thanks in advance
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dan J
You can bet your life an over-excited Bobby will pull all those people who insist on singing over as well.

"But officer - I was singing 'Money for Nothing', honestly!!!"

"Sorry son, I saw your mouth moving and one hand was clearly near your head."

"But I was scratching my head!!!!!"

"Look here sunshine, do I have to get my truncheon out?"...
Legal definition of hands-free? - Flat in Fifth
Nsar

Is this is what you are looking for? its the decision letter and summary of the responses to the consultation paper.

www.tinyurl.com/nta5

The relevant text is in paras 9 10, 11 & 12

I don't think the wording of the legislation is available yet.

Hope that helps,

FiF
Legal definition of hands-free? - GJD
Quote from para 12:

"The consultation explained that while the Department considers that drivers should not use handsfree phones, it was not proposed to include these within the scope of the new regulation due to enforcement difficulties."

Disgraceful, but at least they admit it. "Tackling road safety problems is too hard so we will only bother to target things that are easy to detect."

That is not good enough. The state has a responsibility to do better than that.

GJD
Legal definition of hands-free? - SpamCan61 {P}
Thanks for that FiF : looks like if you don't have to touch the phone to answer a call then you're likely to be OK.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Jonathan {p}
Thanks for that FiF : looks like if you don't have
to touch the phone to answer a call then you're likely
to be OK.


It says in para 11 that you can press buttons and it will not breach the regulations. So you can press a button to accept a call as long as you do not 'hold' the phone while you do so.

Otherwise it could be illegal to change the channel on the radio, which requires the same amount of dexterity.

Jonathan
Legal definition of hands-free? - pdc {P}
I heard on Radio 4 the other day that the phone has to be mounted in a cradle. That doesn't necessarily mean a fully wired car kit as far as I understood.

An tongue in cheek article on it here www.thebrainstrust.co.uk/article.62.2841.html How much of this will be a reality though in a few years time?
Legal definition of hands-free? - Vin {P}
"It says in para 11 that you can press buttons and it will not breach the regulations. So you can press a button to accept a call as long as you do not 'hold' the phone while you do so. "

So the girlie who passed me on the M3 yesterday texting away would have been alright if only she'd had the phone resting on the passenger seat so she didn't need to hold it.

V
Legal definition of hands-free? - Flat in Fifth
"It says in para 11 that you can press buttons and
it will not breach the regulations. So you can press a
button to accept a call as long as you do not
'hold' the phone while you do so. "
So the girlie who passed me on the M3 yesterday texting
away would have been alright if only she'd had the phone
resting on the passenger seat so she didn't need to hold
it.
V


vin,

no (with a tinge of yes!) sounds like wossisname in Vicar of Dibley!

The actual wording is
"11. Within the context of holding a phone, pushing buttons on a phone while it is in a cradle or if it is being operated via buttons on a steering wheel or handlebars of a motorbike would not, in our view, breach the new regulation."

Hmmmmm not too impressed with that as in other paragraphs they specifically try to include other activities and devices so as to avoid loopholes in the law, e.g. but I wasn't talking / texting on my phone ossifer I was emailing on my PDA.

Tricky bit of legislation this which would not be needed if drivers applied common sense in my opinion.

Legal definition of hands-free? - drbe
I fail to understand why the legislation drafters have this apparent obsession with mounting the phone in a cradle. I have for some years now used a mobile phone with a hands-free wire attachment, this has sat in my top pocket, set to automatic answer.

How is this less safe than a phone set in a cradle? I operate an airport car service, passengers have said to me, when I have taken a call without moving my hands from the wheel "how did you do that?"

I can only assume that the govt. is getting duff advice.

Most phones can be set to automatic answer - both my Nokia and Motorola can, try it it makes life so much easier.

Other peoples problems are easy to solve, it is my problems that are difficult.

Don drbe
Legal definition of hands-free? - flatfour
From what i have read in the press, i'm going to be ok with my ear piece, this is classified as hands free, although i have to find the ear piece (wobble) stick it in my ear (wobble) and press the green button or lump on the earphone cable (wobble) then concentrate whilst negotiating the spotted roundabout in swindon, otherwise using a mobile whilst getting a telling off from the MD and trying to defend ones self seems perfectly safe.

Just ban the use of any phone hands free or not whilst the car engine is runnung. I know I'm constantly being phoned by my office, customers and contractors. Yes I do go through red lights, my concentration is impaired, but until legislation forces me from answering whilst driving i'm expected to do so by my employers.
Legal definition of hands-free? - drbe
flatfour

Are you sure you can't make your phone automatic answer? Have a look in "Settings", may I suggest. As I indicate in the post above yours, I use automatic answer all the time. It makes one less thing to think about and you could always leave the earpiece in your ear if you are expecting a call.

Don drbe
Legal definition of hands-free? - X5
HJ in his Saturday column seemed quite adamant that a phone with a wire attached to an earpiece would not be allowed, but that doesn't seem obvious from FIFs link or any of the other comments in this thread.
Where are you getting your information HJ?
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
a phone with a wire attached to an earpiece would not be allowed...


That's what a bloke on the market told me yesterday, but I took it as hogwash as he was trying to get me to buy a hands free gadget that clips to the top of the phone and in turn transmits the speaker output through a spare FM channel on the car stereo.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Mark (RLBS)
more details Dave ?
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
OK, racking my brain here.

I think it was called \"Phone Baby\". Small device that ran off a 3volt lithium battery that lasted approx 3 months with average usage. The only pitfall I could see with it was that you still had to manually answer the phone and also tune in the stereo to listen to the call. ie, if listening to a cassette or CD you would have to put the radio back on and press one of the presets that you had tuned the device into. You used the existing microphone on the mobile as they are very sensitive anyway. He was selling them for £15, but mentioned that someone had had seen them on ebay for over twice that price.
I\'ll do a google later, and also ask person who was with me to try and confirm the name.
Legal definition of hands-free? - rawedge
I'm surprised that the thing you mention is legal
beacuse recently a product for the I-Pod was deemmed illegal which has a similar function.

www.griffintechnology.com/products/itrip/index.html

the I-Trip is an an add-on that transmitted whatever you playing on your ipod over FM so that you could tune your radio into it so you could lsiten to the ipod in the car.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3115345.stm

it seems from what you said that this phone baby thing works the same way and would also fall foul of current laws
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
I think it was called \"Phone Baby\".


Well I was close. It's actually called the "Car Baby". Plenty of info while searching Google. However, I *think* you could be right about the legality of it Rawedge. To quote from their website "Due to legal reasons we have stopped selling the car baby product." Seems there are plenty of other outlets still selling it though.

www.car-baby.co.uk
Car Baby - deltaseven
I purchased one of these "Car Baby" units from a stall at Blackbushe Market for £5.00. The unit worked moderately well at transmitting the "other end" of the conversation through the stereo speakers, but the "other end" struggled to hear me over the road noise as the phone was clipped to the dashboard, and the Car Baby does not include any microphone.

The battery only lasted for about 1 hour of conversation.

See the manufacturer's website for more details:
www.carbaby.com/conact.html

I have since purchased a Nokia blue-tooth handsfree kit (works with any bluetooth mobile), and the phone can be anywhere in the car.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Flat in Fifth
I can see where HJ is coming from on the basis that to make outgoing calls with an earpiece presumably one would have to hold the phone to dial, whereas in a cradle finger pushing would suffice just as with the radio, heating, heated screen what have you. Just my guess as to the logic.

Yet I find it difficult to understand that a "press to talk" eg taxi / CB/ emergency vehicle radio would be quite acceptable, yet a phone on auto answer or with a single on/off button on the earpiece cord would be deemed illegal.

This legislation is very ill advised in my opinion. Like so many other examples it is trying to deal with a symptom rather than the original illness.

Legal definition of hands-free? - Nsar
Thank you for the info so far. I called the RAC legal helpline who, to sum up, said:
It's a bag of washing, no-one knows for sure and we're not making any hard and fast statements, but the decision seems to rest on whether or not any contact whatsoever with the handset is truly hands free but the feeling is that consensus will tend towards the view that a single button answer is a sensible definition...but don't quote me on that!

Everyone clear now?! Would you go out and spend £XXX on a hands free kit now in the knowledge that it may actually turn out to be illegal in 6 weeks' time?
Legal definition of hands-free? - kev the rev
Perhaps the true definition of 'hands free' was the young lady who passed me on the outside lane of a crowded dual carriageway last evening. The inside lane was travelling about 20 mph, so she was driving at least 5 mph faster.

Using both elbows on the steering wheel cross member allowed her to hold her phone in one hand and text input with the other!

On sounding my horn to alert her that she was being observed, she offered her tongue in response!

What that implied I leave you to guess!
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dwight Van Driver
I did contact D of T to query the legislation for hand helds and have been told that the Statutory Instrument covering has not as yet reached fruition. Hopefully when it is published (and I am checking weekly) it should contain definitions that may resolve the many queries.

DVD
Mobile Phones, PR\'s and the Police? - runboy
Here?s a thought. The new legislation coming into force soon regarding mobile phone use in vehicles.

As I see it, legislation says you can?t even operate a mobile phone with the earphone hands-free thingy, and that even holding the mobile to press a button to take a call would render you liable to prosecution.

If this is the case, how will the UK police forces be affected with their fleet of two-way radio equipped vehicles?. At best police cars have a two-way radio with a push to talk stalk on the steering column, at worst the officer uses their personal radio, often with a earpiece.

Any thoughts?
Mobile Phones, PR\'s and the Police? - Dynamic Dave
The new legislation coming into force soon regarding mobile
phone use in vehicles.



AFAIA, a final decision hasn\'t been made yet. But the latest info I have heard is that providing the phone is *attached* to the dashboard via some kind of cradle/mounting bracket you can still use an earphone hands free kits. You can legally press the buttons to make or receive a call, as it is no different to changing a station on your car stereo, or inserting a tape, or lighting a cigarette. If your phone isn\'t *attached* to the dashboard, then you can still use a earphone hands free kit providing your phone is set to auto answer an incoming call and you use voice recognition to make outgoing calls. Physically holding the phone in your hand to dial a number/answer a call will be illegal.

However all this could change again between now and the 1st of December 2003.
Mobile Phones, PR's and the Police? - runboy
That's interesting. So I wonder if it will effect "push and hold to talk" systems-try steering round a corner with one hand one the wheel and one holding a toggle behind the wheel.

Looks like a rave dance........
Mobile Phones, PR's and the Police? - CM
Can one of the BR Mods post a definative answer to this question as I am waiting to buy the necessarry and I donn't want to go shelling out my hard earned on something that will be illegal?

There are too many (well intentioned but) different opinions here so perhaps one of our boys in blue could contact DD/HJ/etc once the law has been finalised so that we can get the proper and correct info.
Mobile Phones, PR's and the Police? - Mark (RLBS)
>>Can one of the BR Mods post a definative answer to this question

I don't know why you would think that we would know.

And as far as I can work out, nobody is sure. Opinions here are just that, opinions.

Sorry.
Mobile Phones, PR's and the Police? - SpamCan61 {P}
Somewhat mangled english; but here's the RAC's view:- www.rac.co.uk/carcare/advice/safety_security/mobil...g
Mobile Phones, PR\'s and the Police? - Dynamic Dave
Mark is correct, the law on hands free hasn\'t been defined as yet. The ruling comes into effect as of the 1st Dec 2003, so it\'s a case of watch this space.

If you look back further up the thread, DVD said, quote:- \"I did contact D of T to query the legislation for hand helds and have been told that the Statutory Instrument covering has not as yet reached fruition. Hopefully when it is published (and I am checking weekly) it should contain definitions that may resolve the many queries.\"
Mobile Phones, PR's and the Police? - Flat in Fifth
"If this is the case, how will the UK police forces be affected with their fleet of two-way radio equipped vehicles?. At best police cars have a two-way radio with a push to talk stalk on the steering column, at worst the officer uses their personal radio, often with a earpiece."

As has been said elsewhere the specific legislation is not available yet, but if you follow the link in my post up at No 3 in this thread and read chapters 14 & 15 I think the position is clear.

That is "press to talk" communicaton systems eg 2 way radios will be exempt.

Hope that helps.

FiF
When is hands free legal? - Deryck Tintagel
Item on the Midlands news last night about the introduction of the specific offence of using a mobile phone whilst driving. It appears that the new law will prevent drivers from using the earpiece and microphone variety of hands-free kit. So, the only legal form is that the phone is in a cradle on the dash with a microphone on the A-pillar.

Anybody any further news on this one?
When is hands free legal? - runboy
I did post something similar last night on this subject, but my post has vanished!. Very strange.

Anyway, the point I was making was that if you can only use a mobile phone in a cradle, and press one button to answer, how will the police be affected in ther vehicles?. Most police cars have a "push and hold to talk" two-way radio. Surely this is illegal?
When is hands free legal? - pdc {P}
motoring law doesn't appear to apply to the police, so they will be fine. see the threads about numbers prosecuted for speeding, no display of tax discs, illegal and dangerous parking.
When is hands free legal? - Dynamic Dave
I did post something similar last night on this subject, but
my post has vanished!. Very strange.


I moved it to a thread already discussing this subject.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=16...5

And guess what, this thread will also get moved there as well later today.

DD. BR Moderator.
When is hands free legal? - winston
I recently installed a hands free unit in my A3. Totally intergrated into the radio system. Works a treat. The mic is positioned at the top of the window and all the wires are hidden. This is the way to go I think. When the phone rings I just press a button on a small unit and then you just talk. Great!!!
When is hands free legal? - smokie
Winston - so if it's hands free, what do you press the button with? The mind boggles... ;-)
When is hands free legal? - smokie
Not a Dictaphone is it? :-)
Legal definition of hands-free? - Clanger
Any Orange subscribers out there may be interested in subscribing to Wildfire. This is a way of managing your calls, contacts and messages by voice command even if your mobile is of the steam-driven variety that doesn't have voice recognition. I subscribed a whole £10 about 4 years ago and have found it invaluable even though it took 2 sessions of about 30 minutes each to "train" it to recognise commands.

As far as this thread is concerned, it means pressing the one button that dials the answer service and you can collect messages, return calls and ring other contacts you have recorded. It will even hang up for you if you say "goodbye". It's been so useful when I was a captian of industry that I can't understand why its use isn't practically universal.

The command for ditching a message is "throw it away". Unfortunately, I must have been using my Basil Fawlty voice when I recorded that one so I have to clench my teeth and get the right inflection before it works, but it often raises a smile if I have passengers.





Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
Legal definition of hands-free? - AF
Any Orange subscribers out there may be interested in subscribing to Wildfire.


Orange (in their wisdom) will not let anybody who doesn't already have Wildfire, subscribe to it. They are trialing a new voice dialing service as a 'replacement' for new customers.
Legal definition of hands-free? - BobbyG
Has anyone experience of the Halfords deal of fully fitted hands free kit for £99.99? From the pictures it looks semi professional and it mutes the radio and comes through the speakers similar to professionally fitted ones?

I know you can get units that plug into cig lighters and other ones with separate speakers but they just seem to be a bit more messy.

Any thoughts?
Legal definition of hands-free? - Clanger
So they are. Apologies.


Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
Legal definition of hands-free? - henry k
>> Any Orange subscribers out there may be interested in subscribing
to Wildfire.
Orange (in their wisdom) will not let anybody who doesn't already
have Wildfire, subscribe to it. They are trialing a new voice
dialing service as a 'replacement' for new customers.

I think Wildfire is so naff that I abandon the call if I hear it on the other end. I suspect Orange realise it is a big negative to many people and have killed it off.
Legal definition of hands-free? - pdc {P}
Wildfire is all but useless when running with a full hands free car kit. I think it's a combination of the mic being too far away and background noise.
Legal definition of hands-free? - greenhey
It's interesting to read all these posts from people who are obviously trying to act responsibly re phones in cars . I doubt anyone here has anything to worry about, given that the use of hand-held phones -even, God help us- to text while driving ,is commonplace. if you get nicked because of your hands-free setup I'd want to know how many of the other boneheads have been nicked first !
Anyway- re auto-answer .it's hard to find in setttings on most phones because it only shows as an option when the hands free is plugged in.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dwight Van Driver
Your attention please...

HMG have at last made and published the Statutory Instrument outlawing the use of mobile phones wef 1.12.03.

It is The Road vehicles (Construction and Use)(Amendment) (N0 4)Regulation 2003.

It can be viewed in its entirity at

www.tinyurl.com/sj4n

DVD
link corrected. DD
Legal definition of hands-free? - Nsar
DVD - could you check that link please - I got an error message when I clicked - thanks very much
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dwight Van Driver
Just tried it to check and doesnt work but it does if fed in as a key word.

Try

www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2003/20032695.htm

Fingers crossed

DVD
Legal definition of hands-free? - smokie
Well spotted...so the answer to the thread is

(a) a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;


Well, I don't hold my phone, it rests in the bit between the seats, so I'm OK then....or am I?

Awaiting the definition of "held" with bated breath...


Seriously, if the phone is on a holder of some kind and all you need do is punch buttons, that seems OK, does it not? I.e. not true hands free...
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dwight Van Driver
Your last para has it Smokie. But no texting...

DVD
Legal definition of hands-free? - CM
Because it is getting dark so early I can't think straight...

basically I am OK if I use a blue tooth head set (rather than mike + speaker) and am OK it I use my little pinky to answer a call.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Clanger
Henry k & pdc. Disagree totally; works fine for me with plumbed-in, "walk & talk" and bluetooth hands free. Never in 4 years had anyone mention any unspecified naffness.


Now to the letter of the law;

"5(c) it is unsafe or impracticable for him to cease driving in order to make the call"

Anyone care to say a few words on the minefield that I suspect is contained in "impracticable"?


Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
Legal definition of hands-free? - hxj
Did you miss the 'and'?

If you are dialing 999 in response to a genuine emergency then they probably won't prosecute you, unless you caused the emergency whilst using a hand held phone!
Legal definition of hands-free? - Clanger
Yep, missed it. Thank you hxj.

That would be as in 'ands free ...

Boom boom


Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
Legal definition of hands-free? - pdc {P}
Yes but with a true car kit the microphone is about 15 inches away from you and wildfire is hopeless.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
DVD, you put a full stop at the end of the earlier link you provided. That is why it didn't work. I have amended.

btw, there's no need to copy the link as tinyurl automatically adds the link to your PC's clipboard. All you need to do is paste (ctrl+v) the link into your post.
Legal definition of hands-free? - LongDriver {P}
So, if you do not actually HOLD the phone whilst you dial the number, you are not breaking the law? The SI says:

(6) For the purposes of this regulation -
(a) a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function
Legal definition of hands-free? - Paul531

Never mind phones, hands free or otherwise, what about smoking whilst driving?

All that opening packets, lighting up, opening the window to chuck out fag ends, packets, lighters, matches and other associated carcinogenic paraphernalia.

Pipe smokers are ever worse !!!!!!!

But then, if every one stopped smoking, the government would have to find £1,000 an extra tax per taxpayer - my wife and I would be £2k per annum worse off - what a paradox.

Please don?t stop smoking though, please smoke more, but not whilst driving.

I?ve got three kids, a wife and a Volvo to run, better smokers help subsidise me !!!!!!!

Then there are all the smokers who have heart attacks at the wheel and take half a dozen other road users with them.

Would banning smokers from driving not make the roads safer?


Paul {Forest of Bowland}
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
Would banning smokers from driving not make the roads safer?


Probably, but where do you draw the line?

Fined for changing a radio station, cassette, or CD? Fined for picking our nose whilst stuck in traffic? Fined for anything which involves removing one hand from the steering wheel?

Lets ban manual gearboxes while we're at it. In fact lets ban the car altogether.
Legal definition of hands-free? - CM
>> Would banning smokers from driving not make the roads safer?
Probably, but where do you draw the line?
Fined for changing a radio station, cassette, or CD? Fined for
picking our nose whilst stuck in traffic? Fined for anything which
involves removing one hand from the steering wheel?
Lets ban manual gearboxes while we're at it. In fact lets
ban the car altogether.


Picking your nose should be banned as it is actually quite dangerous. If youhave yr finger shoved up your nostril and someone rear ends you, it has been known that yr finger travels into yr brain killing you! ;-)
Legal definition of hands-free? - Clanger
Hey, look! An immoderate post from DD. Had a bad day, DD? And it was only 10:30 in the morning.


Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
Legal definition of hands-free? - Flat in Fifth
At least the senior traff plod interviewed on the box the other day was straight forward enough to admit that it will "take quite a bit of case law"[1] to define the boundaries.

[1] not my words.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Mark (RLBS)
The following comments are my thoughts only and are the guidelines that we will be following. I make no representations for it beyond that. It contains my personal opinions only. You follow my thoughts at your own risk. Clear ?

Mobile phone use by employees while driving has always been an issue for the HSE even when it was not illegal (or at least, not explicitly so) now that it is illegal it will become an even more obvious issue.

So those of you who have employees with mobile phones need to worry about it.

Clearly your policies should already advise against mobile phone use while driving. You\'ll now need to strengthen that and forbid phone use while driving if the phone is not mounted in a cradle pointing out that the variety of headphones which have been used and tacitly accepted until now will no longer be accepted.

You also need to ensure that your policy states that if someone rings a mobile phone, they should check that the driver is not driving, or if he is that he at least has a cradle fitted. The call should be kept to a minimum whatever and if a cradle is not being used then you should disconnect.

It would cause you significant issues if an employee caught using a phone was prepared to say in mitigation that he was talking to his manager and felt unable to ring off since his company would not find this acceptable since you may have some legal liability and most certainly will fall foul of the HSE and its rules.

If you have someone who may need to drive & phone, then you need to issue them with a car kit and classify it as PPE - the misuse, non-use or deactivation of which is a criminal offence.

Most important is to ensure that your company and its staff have a culture which finds it unacceptable to make long calls while driving and any calls at all if not hands free according to the law and has policies in place enforcing this.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Nsar
Mark, your post reads like direct advice to companies to take certain actions to prevent prosecution and whilst I'm not questioning the content/sentiment, what is the authority you are using? Is this a quote from some HSE directive, I can't tell from reading what's here.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Mark (RLBS)
Nsar,

Please see the paragraph I have now inserted at the beginning of my previous note. There is no authority behind my comments. It is simply my reaction to current HSE guidelines and the potential implications of the new laws as we see it.

However, whether or not my thoughts on the answer are appropriate, it is nonetheless an issue which all companies should pay attention to and to which they should find an answer/approach which they believe appropriate.

MArk.
Legal definition of hands-free? - pdc {P}
Para 7

www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/60-7.htm
Legal definition of hands-free? - smokie
Mark - some advice. My company provides a car or allowance for my job. I take the allowance. I get a company phone.

If you take the car, they fit a hands free etc. If you take the allowance, they say it is your responsibility to fit a hands free at your cost.

Company policy currently says that phone calls should not be taken/made when on the move, or if they are, should be keot to an absolute minimum.

Do you reckon they need to reconsider provision of hands free kits to car allowance people in the light of what you've said?
Legal definition of hands-free? - smokie
Oops, my last post should have started Some Advice please!
Legal definition of hands-free? - Mark (RLBS)
My own opinion is as follows;

Either it should be stated that without a car kit you should not use the phone while moving or the appropriate equipment needs to be provided.

They have the choice of either stating that the phone must not be used, or if there is a busienss need and/or expectation of your availability on the end of a phone, then they should provide the cradle as part of your PPE.





Legal definition of hands-free? - smokie
Thanks Mark, will ask and update with their reply
Mobile Phone Legislation - DieselBoy
All,

I know that the defintion of handsfree has been queried on this site before, but my question is quite simple.

After December 1st, am I able to use a hands free unit that is not 'hard wired' into the car? It would be powered from the ciggie lighter, and the phone would be on automatic answer whilst on the move. Is this enough to satisfy the law?

Cheers (and I know I won't be able to use it in the Moggie!)
Mobile Phone Legislation - Dynamic Dave
As previously posted, and as I understand it,

\"providing the phone is *attached* to the dashboard via some kind of cradle/mounting bracket you can still use an earphone hands free kits. You can legally press the buttons to make or receive a call, as it is no different to changing a station on your car stereo, or inserting a tape, or lighting a cigarette. If your phone isn\'t *attached* to the dashboard, then you can still use a earphone hands free kit providing your phone is set to auto answer an incoming call and you use voice recognition to make outgoing calls. Physically holding the phone in your hand to dial a number/answer a call will be illegal.\"

BUT, see DVD\'s link www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2003/20032695.htm and the latter part of thread www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=16565&...f for additional info.
Mobile Phone Legislation - Dynamic Dave
ps,

This thread will be moved the mobile phone thread later. DD

done
Mobile Phone Legislation - GrumpyOldGit
Be careful with 'earphone' as I'm pretty sure that a wired earphone will NOT be legal. Not absolutely certain about Bluetooth earphones, but I believe they may be illegal too.
Mobile Phone Legislation - DieselBoy
Cheers DD. Apologies for going over old ground.

I think the handsfree I have in mind will be just the ticket!
Mobile Phone Legislation - SpamCan61 {P}
The new official words are here :- www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2003/20032695.htm the phrase is 'hand-held' my interpretation is that a wired earpiece is not hand-held; but doubtless it will take some case law to clarify the definition?
Mobile Phone Legislation - DieselBoy
<<< >>>

***************************************************************

This could be my own bizarre interpretation, but doesn’t 5c permit using a mobile phone on a motorway? I’d consider it unsafe and impraticable to cease driving when on the the M6?

Apologies if again I’m being thick. All my brain power has been suckered out and used by my boss today.
Mobile Phone Legislation - Dwight Van Driver
No

5(c) only permits a call refered to at 5(a) and which by definition could be anywhere.

DVD
Mobile Phone Legislation - DieselBoy
DVD - well there you go. I didn't think there could be a loophole that large!
Mobile Phone Legislation - Colin M
I'm not sure what all the fuss is. It's illegal to drive with foglights on in clear daylight, to cross white hatched areas, to turn left on red traffic lights, to speed in residential areas, to drive without insurance or tax, to drive with one headlight broken at night, to {insert example of what you see people doing everyday}.

These people are not caught or prosecuted because there are no police on our streets looking out for crimes being committed. Unless they install cameras that can detect the use of a non hands free phone system, then it will be business as usual even after the law takes effect.

Mobile Phone Legislation - scotty
err ... I think crossing white hatched areas can be ok so long as they're not borderd by a un-broken white line and you can see it is safe to do so - says something akin to that in the highway code IIRC.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Dynamic Dave
Finally got around to fitting my hands free kit today. Total cost £4.99 and ½ hour to fit it. It's one of those that clips onto an air vent and accepts *any* phone. I bought it from the local Esso garage and it's made by DSL. I beleive some BP garages are also selling them as well.

The kit comes with a speaker and a long length of cable to run around the trim so that you can mount it in pretty much any location you like. A small microphone clips on top of the mobile phone, and in turn outputs the voice from the phone to the speaker. It uses the existing microphone on the handset. Tried it today at 70mph+ and the caller could hear me as clear as a bell, and likewise I could hear them.

There are a few downsides that I can see so far:-

1. It plugs into the cigarette lighter socket and in turn I cannot charge the phone should the battery go flat. However once I can get along to my local electrical store, I will be buying a separate plug and wiring the kit into the radio circuit instead.

2. Should you have passengers on board, you cannot have a private conversation as everyone can hear the caller through the loudspeaker.

3. I have lost the use of one air vent, fortunately it is one of the two in the middle, and it is the passengers one.

Legal definition of hands-free? - henry k
I bought one at a Total filling station a few weeks ago to fit in offsprings old heap.
1. It plugs into the cigarette lighter socket and in turn
I cannot charge the phone should the battery go flat. However
once I can get along to my local electrical store, I
will be buying a separate plug and wiring the kit into
the radio circuit instead.


Or if you do not want to play with the electrics then buy a doubler that plugs into the socket and gives you two sockets.
Just a few pounds from most spares places. Not pretty but simple.

>>I have lost the use of one air vent, fortunately
it is one of the two in the middle


I am about to discard the vent connections and cobble up a backplate so I can attach it the dash with either a sticky pad or a couple of screws. No problem with detracting from resale value in my case but there is no flat surface in the right area of an old UNO.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Nsar
More proof that this is a right muddle.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3251725.stm

Has anyone tried those thru-stereo kits on sale in Halfords for £99?
Legal definition of hands-free? - Welliesorter
There's quite a useful article on this on the Register:

www.theregister.co.uk/content/64/34001.html

This links to the DFT site which has a fairly straightforward set of guidelines which the BBC article mentioned in Nsar's post largely reproduces. tinyurl.com/u70x should take you straight there.

One surprise I hadn't previously noticed in this and the BBC article is that you should be OK stationery in a traffic jam if the engine is off. I'm pretty sure I've read elsewhere that this is not the case.
Legal definition of hands-free? - Peter D
My Son works for Halfords and tells they are fine and fully compliant and very useable.
Mobile Phone Law - Peter D
Does anyone know where I can read the definitve law on use of mobile phones whilst driving. I personnally do not use a mobile phone but I have seen a statement that reports that if you stop your vehicle on any 'public highway' and use a phone, even with the engine off, then it is an offence. You have to be parked in a car park before you can use a phone. I guess if you get out and sit in the passenger seat then it is not illegal. Regards Peter
Mobile Phone Law - Welliesorter
Maybe not definitive, but a useful set of FAQs from an official source at tinyurl.com/u70x
Mobile Phone Law - Wilco {P}
If you really want the chapter and verse - this is it.

tinyurl.com/ws8t

The hard sell has started judging by the matrix signs on the M1 from J24 to J15 this morning.
Mobile Phone Law - jeds
Peter D

The Act may in itself be a lot of nonsense but it does quite clearly state that it only applies when driving a vehicle. Stationary vehicles are not being driven - even with the engine running.

The Act begins:

No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using -
a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or

etc. etc.


This is different to drink driving stationary vehicles with the engine off because drink driving laws are to do with 'being in charge'.
Mobile Phone Law - Gazza
There is no need for any car kit with certain phones. Just found that out this week.

My new phone, a Nokia 7250i, has built in stereo loud-speakers and a strong microphone with anti-echo software.

I bought the cheapest cradle (£2.49) and stuck it next to the centre air vents, on the driver's side.

Now when I take a call, I press the button for loud speaker and speak normally. When I make a call, I use speed dial or voice tags recognition. Never experienced any echo.

The microphone does not usually to pick up the background music but there may be a necessity to mute the radio/CD if it is on very loud. However, it would never echo.

Overall, I am very pleased with my new purchase.

PS. Vodafone is having a special offer at the moment which is the one I bought. Free Nokia 7250i + 100 minutes anytime any-network + 50 SMS per month for £15 a month. Go to www.vodafone.co.uk/metro

Garrison
Mobile Phone Law - pdc {P}
PS. Vodafone is having a special offer at the moment which
is the one I bought. Free Nokia 7250i + 100
minutes anytime any-network + 50 SMS per month for £15 a
month. Go to www.vodafone.co.uk/metro
Garrison


Hardly special when 3's standard tarriff is £25 for 500 cross network anytime minutes. Shame that it takes about 5 attempts to complete a call.

Wonder where the law would stand on a 3 video mobile being used hands free in a cradle, but on a video call, where the driver would potentially be watching the phone and not the road.
Mobile Phone Law - Gazza
I looked into 3 and I liked their tariff but their phones available are not nice and not enough choice. I prefer something from Nokia and similar size to my 6510.
Mobile Phone Law - Peter D
Jeds, If you are stopped at traffic lights you are driving and can not use a mobile. If you are sat at the side of the road ( Public Highway )in the drivers seat with ignition keys on your person or in the ignition and you have been drinking and the men in blue come along then you will be charged with Drunk Driving thus using a phone whether moving of stationary on a public highway is an offense. Regards Peter
Mobile Phone Law - Peter D
Jeds, I take your point about the In Charge aspect rather than driving but you will find that se of a mobile whilst at traffic lights, junctions and temporary traffic delays is not allowed under the new law. Use of mobiles during major delays like the closure of a road due to an accident and you are genuinely stuck and stationary will not attract the wrath of the blue light.

For my part it is not a problem I only carry a mobile, turn off, for emergencies but the number of drivers you see doing dumb things with a mobile stuck to the side of their head it is no wonder they are bringing this law in. I don?t think hands free is much better you see some guys having some sort of argument on the phone and thumbing the steering wheel, clearly not concentrating on driving. Take care all you mobile uses, I am sure the police will be out to make a point come Monday. Regards Peter
Mobile Phone Law - Dwight Van Driver
Jeds and Peter D

So what is a driver?

R v McDonagh and Ames v MacLeod 1974 came up with the following:

The primary consideration as to whether a person is "driving" is essentially a question of fact, dependent on the degree and extent to which the person has control of the direction and movement of the vehicle.

One test is whether the accused (driver) was in "a substantial sense controlling the movement and direction of the car" A person cannot be said to be "driving" unless he satisfies this test.

The fact that a person (driver) satisfies the test of control ( A v M) is not necessarily exhaustive. It still has to be considered whether the activity in question could fall within the ordinary meaning of the word "driving" in the English language.

Further, in relation to a drivers obligation to report an Accident then in Jones v Prothero 1952 it was held "Driver" means the person who takes the vehicle on the road and he remains the driver whilst in the car although he may have stopped the car and engine.

Unless P.U. can come up with more recent case law then it will be a question of fact regarding being the driver at an enforced temporary stop with engine running at Traffic Lights. Under those circumstances would not a reasonable person come to the conclusion the one at the wheel was still the driver, whereas parked clear of the road with engine stopped a different kettle of fish?.

DVD

Mobile Phone Law - Welliesorter
The set of FAQs I linked to above (twice because two threads were joined) suggests that PeterD is right: "In exceptional traffic jams, such as a lengthy stoppage on a motorway, it would be clear that someone wasn't driving if the engine was off."

It looks as if the police will start by issuing warnings, except in Scotland. A quick search on Google News for "mobile enforcement" revealed articles about this in today's Telegraph and Scotsman. (I'm not sure if linking directly to the articles is a breach of the T&Cs of the sites.)
Mobile Phone Law - jeds
DVD, I take your point. These are just my own thoughts; I think being the 'driver' and 'driving' are really two different things. When you get out of your car and stand next to it on the pavement you could be said to be the driver of the car, but you couldn't be said to be driving it. If you are stationary at traffic lights I think you are still driving the car even though you are not actually driving along. If you pull over on the side of the road and have the engine running but clearly have no intention of moving along then I don't think you are driving the car - although I agree this may not be the official view. As I said, my own thoughts.

Interestingly, the ROSPA site says the following:

The Definition of Driving
Under this law, a person is ?driving? if the vehicle is stationary but the engine is running. The offence will apply to all motor vehicles, including motorcycles, but will not apply to pedal cycles.

I have also read this on other sites as well. Does anybody know where this comes from? The Act gives no such definition.
Mobile Phone Law - hxj

My understanding is that there is no statutory definition of driving.

However where necessary a court will take a view as to whether you are driving or not, that is how the case law referred to came about.

However RoSPA are not going to post an 'aggressive' definition of 'Driving' on their website as if they have it wrong they could be in trouble.

So it is simply common sense to say if you want to use your mobile and are parked by the side of the road if you switch your engine off you are unlikely to be considered to be driving. If you have the engine on you are much more likely to be considered driving.

So your choice, I'd know what I'd do.
Mobile Phone Law - pdc {P}
On the M6 at 0230 on Saturday, and then on the M56 the matrix signs were all saying "Don't Phone/While Driving" and those that had 3 lines had a "Think" on the first line.

Noticed it on the M61, M60 and M6 later in the day.
 

Value my car