A friend of a friend (honest!) is in a spot of bother after having knocked over a lampost. The lampost was I understand in a pub car park, as was her car. She is 21, and as her Dad was away at the time, she did not have any sensible advice, so did nothing. She was visited by the boys in blue (who presumably had got her reg number)and she confirmed that it was her. Obviously, she is now aware that she should have reported the accident both to the publican and possibly also to the police.
She has paid for the damage.
She has now been summoned for failing to report under RTA 170(4).
I think she is guilty, as long as a pub car park qualifies as a public place. Has anyone any experience on this?
I have advised that if she is indeed guilty, she should go to court in her best clothes with parents (she is 21 and lives at home), explain the circs, apologise sincerely etc. Although this is going to be a bit nervewracking for her, I believe that she will be given some credit for going to court as opposed to pleading by post, if they will let her. They may of course not let her plead by post as they have a discretion to disqualify.
Any help much appreciated!
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Money quote:
'This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which'
Highly unlikely a pub car park is a road. Who did she pay for the damage the pub or the council? If the pub then definitely not a road.
Get the facts, if not an adopted road then turn up in court and plead not guilty.
You might also ask the police how many burglars and drug dealers have gotten away whilst they have wasted time on this. Oh burglars and drug dealers are big and dangerous and they might get hurt, better to harass a 21 year old girl, I understand now.
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The section actaually refers to a road or other public place. you could certainly argue that apub car park is a public place.
More has emerged. Apparently, the repair cost was paid to the local council, which strongly suggests that the lamppost at least was on public land.
Appreciate what you say about the police/burglars etc, but:
1. Making these points will get her nowhere and will do more harm than good
2. The police were justified in thinking that she was doing a runner, she knocked over a lamppost and didn't report it to anyone until the police visited her. That's obviously very silly.
3. She was using the pub car park while visiting a shop. I presume she whould make this clear at court, in case the police and magistrates suspect that she did not report it because she wsa over the limit.
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The definition of a "public place" and hence all the rules and regulations apply is very wide. Very roughly if the public have access it is a public place. No doubt one of the backroom leagle eagles can give yo chapter and verse.
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Chapter and verse is what I'm after!
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Probably irrelevant as you say the lampost was on a road, but the act refers specifically to an incident on a 'road' not a road or other public place. I copied the section from the act itself.
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Reportable accidents:
Sect 170 of RTA 88:
Owing to presence of an m.p.v. on a road or other PUBLIC PLACE
(prosecution must show that people admitted to place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (i.e. exclusive club). Those persons are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question - so pub car park during permitted hours public place maybe not so outside permitted hours if landlord objects)
where damage is caused...
to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or otherwise forming part of the land in question is situated..
Driver MUST STOP...
give name and address also of owner of vehicle and Index No to any person having reasonable grounds. If this is not done then:
Driver MUST REPORT as soon as reasonably precticable to Constable or Police Station and in any case within 24 hrs.
Offence of failing to stop triable summarily. 6 months imprisonment (possible for the out and out villians very, very doubtful in your case), or up to a £5000 fine, or both. Discretionary disqualification. Between 5 - 10 penalty points.
Court may seem very daunting to someone on a first visit. Suggest if you have a local one then go along before hand and sit in the Public gallery. You will then get an insight into what goes on.
DVD
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Thanks DVD.
I have found a case which throws some light upon it (Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co Ltd). This case was about the definition of "Road", and was in connection with an insurance wrangle.
In the judgment, it says that a car park is usually not a road. However, His Lordship goes on to say that if the relevant section was meant to apply to a car park, then the RTA would have used the words "or other public place", as it does in other parts 9such as drunk driving, and not reporting). This strongly suggests to me that a car park is indeed a "Public Place"
I sympathise with the lass, I was done for this when I was 18. I turned up at court with mum and dad in tow, wearing my brand new BHS sports jacket, collar and tie (and trousers too of course). Up for not reporting and also for careless driving.
Apologised profusely, Mags aware my folks in court, made eye contact with all 3 mags...
result, 4 points, and 50 quid. This was 17 years ago, but still a pretty good result I would say. It looks like the advice to this lass should be the same (although she shouldn't wear the sports jacket...)
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We're all probably flogging a dead horse here but I attach the section in full, where does it say PUBLIC PLACE:
'Duties in case of accident
Duty of driver to stop, report accident and give information or documents.
170.—(1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which—
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that motor vehicle, or
(b) damage is caused—
(i) to a vehicle other than that motor vehicle or a trailer drawn by that motor vehicle, or
(ii) to an animal other than an animal in or on that motor vehicle or a trailer drawn by that motor vehicle, or
(iii) to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or otherwise forming part of the land on which the road in question is situated or land adjacent to such land.
(2) The driver of the motor vehicle must stop and, if required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.
(3) If for any reason the driver of the motor vehicle does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must report the accident.
(4) A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is guilty of an offence.
(5) If, in a case where this section applies by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above, the driver of the vehicle does not at the time of the accident produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act—
(a) to a constable, or
(b) to some person who, having reasonable grounds for so doing, has required him to produce it,
the driver must report the accident and produce such a certificate or other evidence.
This subsection does not apply to the driver of an invalid carriage.
(6) To comply with a duty under this section to report an accident or to produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act, the driver—
(a) must do so at a police station or to a constable, and
(b) must do so as soon as is reasonably practicable and, in any case, within twenty-four hours of the occurrence of the accident.
(7) A person who fails to comply with a duty under subsection (5) above is guilty of an offence, but he shall not be convicted by reason only of a failure to produce a certificate or other evidence if, within five days after the occurrence of the accident, the certificate or other evidence is produced at a police station that was specified by him at the time when the accident was reported.
(8) In this section "animal" means horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep, pig, goat or dog.'
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Twas abrieviated to add what the Courts have said.
Joe has picked it up in Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd 1998 when the House of Lords said that the requirements under section 170 were extended to cover accidents occuring in 'other public places as well as 'roads'
Sorry to give you so much typing.
DVD
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Thommo,
you are looking at an old version of the Act.
The section has been amended along with others, by a statutory instrument, to be exact, SI2000/762 reg 2(1) (6) (d). This was in direct response to the case I described above.
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Have to agree with DVD on this. I'd like to debate the publicness of a pub car park, all depends on on the time of day, that would be my argument. Nice to see the devil in the detail. Mind you had she bothered to contact the owner the cops probably would not have been involved.
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Mind you had she botheredto contact the owner the cops probably would not have been involved.
>>
I think that is the point isn't it? The failure to report bit only comes into play if you do not stop and give particulars etc at the time. If she had gone into the pub, reported the occurence to the landlord, left her name and address and indicated that she would pay, then no offence would have been committed by then driving off.
I don't think you are obliged to do a lengthy investigation at the time to determine the actual ownership of the lamp-post. If it was in a pub carpark it would have been a reasonable assumption that it belonged to the pub.
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Hi Joe
I have nothing in the way of advice, but I am a little curious.
What on earth was your friend driving if she managed to knock over a lamp-post?
That may seem a little flippant, but my point is that if a lamp-post gets knocked over during a normal parking manoeuvre then surely there is a problem with the condition of the lamp-post? If this is the case, then your friend may be within her rights to ask for some of the money paid to the council to be repaid to her.
I hope that she survives her day in court ok - I have never been to court and I know that it would scare the pants off me.
Cheers
Rob
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Joe
Been trying to search for and pull up Statutory Instrument No 762 of 2000 but cannot do so.
Can you put a name to the amending Regulation please.
DVD
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DVD
I got the statute up from the butterworths website, and the words "or other public place" appeared in square brackets. The footnote to the section gave the info along the lines of "words in square brackets inserted by ... details of the SI. No name for the SI was given, just the number, which I have probably mis-typed here!
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Joe - you were nearly right in quoting the SI. It is SI no.2000/726.
>>" ...
(6) In section 170 (duty to stop and report accident)-
(a) in subsection (1), after "on a road" there shall be inserted " or other public place",
(b) in subsection (1)(b)(iii), after "the road" there shall be inserted " or place".
Signed by authority of the Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions
Larry Whitty
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions
10th March 2000 ....">>>>>
Joe, the "friend of a friend" was not worse for drink by any chance, was she? Perhaps the Police suspect the reason for doing a runner was probably that "not stopping after knocking over a lamp-post in a Pub park = being over the limit?"
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eMBe
Thanks. Good job I do not type for a living or my wife and kids would be in deep trouble.
I am informed that she wasn't p*ssed, and in fact had used the pub car park while popping into the chinese takeaway. In an earlier post I said i thought that she should make this clear to the Mags, so that they did not suspect she did a runner due to having had a few drinks.
As others havd said, she would have gotten clean away with it if she had the sense to report at the time, either to the pub r the local council. Still, bought experience is the best....
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I think that proves the point - this is a car park to which the none pub-atending public park to go to other places and quite rightly the Police have defined it as a public place. Not knowing the full facts the Police seem to have been quite reasonable here. I presume she has insurance - lamp posts are expensive especially when owned prvately. Mind you this case gets the old justice juices flowing and I'd love to know the full details and the outcome if she went not guilty.
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Motor Vehicles (Compulsory Insurance) Regs 2000 (SI 726)
tinyurl.com/kufd
also adds the need to have third party Insurance when driving in a Public Place.
DVD
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