Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Thu 18 Mar 2021 10:12

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Miniman777

I see the Government will reduce grants for EV's from £3,000 to £2,500 and restrict it to vehicles under £35,000.The government said it will encourage people to make the switch to affordable electric cars.

Sorry, Government, as someone in my mid-60s, that move will turn me further against buying an EV in the current climate and the paucity of the charging network.

To get folk to switch, especially those of my age with limited savings, you're going to need a better carrot. The £35k ceiling puts many vehicles I'd buy out of range (no pun intended), so I am beginning to ask just how serious this Government is on climate change, decarbonisation and reducing emissions?

Edited by Miniman777 on 18/03/2021 at 10:16

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 10:27

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - _

I think the government is partially right.

If someone can afford to pay the premium for ICE cars and the extra ved for them, why should manufacturers have their profits guaranteed?

There are lots of cars available for under that price and many of them are decent.

Just like with the Gov scrappage schemes at times, it wasn't the manufacturers suffering.

If you use a current manufacturer scrappage scheme you just end up with the price you would pay with a broker, and if you really want a discount (where you can)

take the PCP for a good deal having made sure you can pay it off.

Just like the stamp duty holiday on homes, it is all smoke and mirrors.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 10:46

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - ExA35Owner

Seems entirely reasonable to spread the grant money over more vehicles; seems entirely reasonable to subsidise smaller vehickes which will cost the environament less to build and less to run, rather than also subsidising more polluting vehicles.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 11:16

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

At some point in the next few years we will reach a cross over point where EVs outsell ICE so I can see why the Government are cutting this- particularly as EVs currently pay a LOT less tax during the lifetime of the vehicle.

EVs seem to be selling on their own merits these days anyway.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 13:30

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Terry W

A £500 drop in EV subsidy will make little or no difference to the sales of EV as:

the cost of the technology, especially batteries is falling
if you can pay ~£30k for a car, £500 off the price will make little difference
if bought on PCP - £500 over 3 years is ~£3 per week
the "stick" - banning new ICE from 2030 - will make EV a more rational choice

For those who don't buy new cars (most of us) the reduction in subsidy is irrelevant!

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 14:34

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - sammy1

the cost of the technology, especially batteries is falling

It might well be, but I do not see the price of EVs falling. Maybe a change of government will take a more realistic view of where electric cars are going, their practicality, and who can afford them.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 21:39

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - alan1302

It might well be, but I do not see the price of EVs falling.

Why is that? They have been coming down in price - and most new technologies bring prices down so why do you think this will be different?

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 14:59

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - SLO76

Subsidies don’t work. Manufacturers greedily hoover them up instead of passing them on to the public via higher initial prices. Look at the 2009 scrappage scheme. I was at the time looking for a car for my parents who planned on taking advantage of it. We shortlisted a few but several firms such as Ford and Vauxhall put their prices up by nearly £1,000 shortly after it began. The Fiesta 1.25 was ruled out as a result and the Honda Jazz we bought for £9995 minus £2000 scrappage on an old C class Merc was £10,800 the month later. It was actually a bit of an unreported scandal and ultimately went in the pockets of the manufacturers with exception of Hyundai and Kia who used it as intended to boost volumes and thus the reason for the large number of I10’s and Picanto’s sold at the time. The money would be better spent boosting the infrastructure for electric vehicles or being directed to the real future of hydrogen fuel cells.

Edited by SLO76 on 18/03/2021 at 15:00

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 16:18

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - John F

I too think HMG is right. Folk who choose to afford more than £35k for a car should not be subsidised. History tells us that new technology invariably drops in price as it becomes mainstream. A hundred years ago the price of a Model T Ford had fallen to less than half that of its introductory models. Same for digital cameras. And TVs. Etc.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 16:32

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

I very much doubt £500 is either here nor there for an average buyer.

You can already get some pretty hefty discounts off some EVs - a new Leaf can be had for about £23k OTR for example.

As SLO76 says getting the infrastructure built is the challenge - the cars will come and in a deluge in the next few years.

Of course, a used market will develop as well and by the mid 2030s there will be cheap used EVs about. I reckon buying a used EV will be fun - I mean, really, apart from checking the battery condition and that it goes there isn't much else to check.

No more does it use oil? Is the DMF knackered? How many miles has the cutch? Is the auto gearbox about to go pop? How's the exhaust? Is the GPF/DPF blocked? Does it start when hot? etc etc

Edited by pd on 18/03/2021 at 16:38

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 16:49

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - madf

s.

Of course, a used market will develop as well and by the mid 2030s there will be cheap used EVs about. I reckon buying a used EV will be fun - I mean, really, apart from checking the battery condition and that it goes there isn't much else to check.

Yes. Owners will run them with no maintenance for years.. until a warning light comes on and then sell them..

Remember most conventional mechanise are not competent with electrical systems.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 17:02

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

s.

Of course, a used market will develop as well and by the mid 2030s there will be cheap used EVs about. I reckon buying a used EV will be fun - I mean, really, apart from checking the battery condition and that it goes there isn't much else to check.

Yes. Owners will run them with no maintenance for years.. until a warning light comes on and then sell them..

Remember most conventional mechanise are not competent with electrical systems.

My point about an EV is that is basically either works or it doesn't. They don't tend to "sort of work" but with more noise, a slight miss, a bit of smoke and a slipping clutch.

Either the dash lights up like a Christmas tree and it won't go or it works fine.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 17:28

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - RT

s.

Of course, a used market will develop as well and by the mid 2030s there will be cheap used EVs about. I reckon buying a used EV will be fun - I mean, really, apart from checking the battery condition and that it goes there isn't much else to check.

Yes. Owners will run them with no maintenance for years.. until a warning light comes on and then sell them..

Remember most conventional mechanise are not competent with electrical systems.

My point about an EV is that is basically either works or it doesn't. They don't tend to "sort of work" but with more noise, a slight miss, a bit of smoke and a slipping clutch.

Either the dash lights up like a Christmas tree and it won't go or it works fine.

Many IC cars have serious faults which unconnected to the drive train - eg, suspension, bodywork, electrics, equipment, trim.

I've had my share of faults, under warranty and later, but the last drivetrain fault I had was electrical connections for the ECU on a 2000 Vauxhall Astra so I don't believe for one minute that EVs will be trouble-free.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 16:59

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - skidpan

I think the government is partially right.

If someone can afford to pay the premium for ICE cars and the extra ved for them, why should manufacturers have their profits guaranteed?

Agree.

The better off can afford to buy their premium car now without any subsidy so why should that change. The £2500 for the less well off is of much more benefit.

And don't forget that many (if not most) of the premium cars bought are by companies.

But at the end of the day there is no point encouraging people to buy EV's if there is no where to charge them. The gov should spend the money of the charging network before persuading people to buy the cars.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 17:52

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Engineer Andy

I see the Government will reduce grants for EV's from £3,000 to £2,500 and restrict it to vehicles under £35,000.The government said it will encourage people to make the switch to affordable electric cars.

Sorry, Government, as someone in my mid-60s, that move will turn me further against buying an EV in the current climate and the paucity of the charging network.

To get folk to switch, especially those of my age with limited savings, you're going to need a better carrot. The £35k ceiling puts many vehicles I'd buy out of range (no pun intended), so I am beginning to ask just how serious this Government is on climate change, decarbonisation and reducing emissions?

By your own logic, you wouldn't be able to afford an EV over £35k anyway, given they are only reducing the grant by £500.

My belief is that they (finally) got the message that ordinary people don't like all taxpayers subsidising wealthier people to buy expensive cars - even if they are 'green'. If they can afford them, they let them pay full price and let the market decide the price.

TBH they should be putting honking taxes on expensive new cars that are not fuel efficient or which emit a lot of CO2/other pollutants to encourage those same people to go EV (it's not as though they can't afford to) and to subsidise the building/enlarging of the charging network.

Ordinary people, the vast, vast majority of whom cannot afford to buy an EV (especially if its an old one where the battery pack could go kaput at any time and render it worthless [they can't afford to replace the battery pack]) or -as many (like myself) have no space to install a home charger, should not be subsidising those who can.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 18:45

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

.

TBH they should be putting honking taxes on expensive new cars that are not fuel efficient or which emit a lot of CO2/other pollutants to encourage those same people to go EV (it's not as though they can't afford to) and to subsidise the building/enlarging of the charging network.

.

To be honest they already do. Such a car will pay many, many more thousands in tax over its lifetime than the equivalent EV.

And you are seeing the results with the larger/luxury market seemingly going EV before many others. This is shown up in used demand as well with something like a Tesla Model S holding its price vastly better than ICE equivalents.

Take a 7 year old Model S or a Jaguar XJ. Even if they cost about the same new the Tesla is worth £35k and the Jag about £10k if you're lucky.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 20:27

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Engineer Andy

.

TBH they should be putting honking taxes on expensive new cars that are not fuel efficient or which emit a lot of CO2/other pollutants to encourage those same people to go EV (it's not as though they can't afford to) and to subsidise the building/enlarging of the charging network.

.

To be honest they already do. Such a car will pay many, many more thousands in tax over its lifetime than the equivalent EV.

And you are seeing the results with the larger/luxury market seemingly going EV before many others. This is shown up in used demand as well with something like a Tesla Model S holding its price vastly better than ICE equivalents.

Take a 7 year old Model S or a Jaguar XJ. Even if they cost about the same new the Tesla is worth £35k and the Jag about £10k if you're lucky.

To be fair though, many of the EVs have not yet reached the age where their battery packs either seriously drop off in performance (range) or come to the end of their life generally.

I wonder what they would be worth then - not much, I guess, given a wealthy person won't be buying a 10yo Tesla, but nor will someone on a modest income, as they cannot afford to replace the battery pack.

I'd be more interested to see how much eary mk1 Nissan Leafs now go for and how many are still around. I mean, why would anyone take the risk of having to spend several £0000s on a new battery pack (or at least a sizeable chunk thereof) for a car probably worth around that figure if the battery was working (never mind the range)?

Add to that Tesla apparantly will not look after cars over 10 years old (I read more than one article a while ago from the US about this) - presumably it's just as much about them not keeping stocks of/making new parts for older cars.

I realise ICE car manufacturers aren't obliged to either, but most still do (I can still get OEM parts for my Mazda3 and that went out of production in 2009), and, more importantly, there's a big market for pattern parts - not sure if there is yet for EVs.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 17:59

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Metropolis.

Wealthier people who can afford new cars over £30k have no place being subsidised it is madness. Maybe I should get subsidised fuel for driving a 15 year old car and not causing the pollution of producing a new car especially an electric one, but that wont work because they only look at tailpipe emissions!

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 20:21

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Terry W

As 2030 approaches the market for new ICE will just about disappear.

Even now in 2021, a luxury £60k ICE and it will be close to worthless in 8 years time. An EV by contrast with the same £60k new price tag may be worth £10-20k. The same is true of more proletarian transport.

The smart money has no problem with buying an EV without a subsidy. The proposition that the money is spent on infrastructure is far more intelligent!

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 23:15

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - bazza

But thinking about it, even if ICE and ev were identically priced, would you buy one right now as your primary transport? Personally I wouldn't, I don't have confidence in being able to charge it up 200 miles from home or on a long driving holiday. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but suspect that it is a very common belief. Interesting topic.

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Thu 18 Mar 2021 23:23

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - edlithgow

As I understand it, there is The Big Stick, in the shape of a 2030 ban on new ICE's

When you have The Big Stick (and the plausible intention of using it-?) you have less need of The Carrot.

Seems pretty logical to me.

Its The End Of The World As We Know It.

Don't sweat it.

Edited by edlithgow on 18/03/2021 at 23:26

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 00:34

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - brum

Is 35k the full retail price, surely not the price after grants and manufacturer/other discounts?

A base Corsa E starts from over 30,000 rrp

A base Nissan Leaf starts at 29,845 rrp

A base Renault Zoe starts at 29,995 rrp

IMO they should have lowered the threshold to 30k, that would force car manufacturers to cut prices.

Edited by brum on 19/03/2021 at 00:38

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 06:40

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - madf

Most of the comments on battery pack life appear to display astounding ignorance.

Battery packs are repairable and are being repaired today.

See Prius packs.tinyurl.com/yh4d9u74

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 06:43

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - RT

Most of the comments on battery pack life appear to display astounding ignorance.

Battery packs are repairable and are being repaired today.

See Prius packs.tinyurl.com/yh4d9u74

Except Peugeot and Tesla who add a layer of software to prevent it.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 12:50

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - brum

Most of the comments on battery pack life appear to display astounding ignorance.

Battery packs are repairable and are being repaired today.

See Prius packs.tinyurl.com/yh4d9u74

Except Prius indeed most Toyota hybrid until very recently used conventional nickel hydride cells which can be sourced from independent suppliers. I doubt that Li-ion prism cells specific to the latest cars are available outside of the manufacturer parts system. You may find a lot of owners and taxi owners with old Priuses are running with dead battery packs, you can still drive them, just lose the hybridness. but importantly to the owners, maintain the tax advantage and avoid congestion /emmision charges etc

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 18:47

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

Actually I don't think you can drive one with a dead battery pack.

Not that it will happen very often - the Prius is about the most reliable car in the world and I bet most if not all those taxis with 300k on the clock are working just fine.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 19:09

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - brum

Actually I don't think you can drive one with a dead battery pack.

Not that it will happen very often - the Prius is about the most reliable car in the world and I bet most if not all those taxis with 300k on the clock are working just fine.

www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/what-happens-when-a...l

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 21:04

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Engineer Andy

Actually I don't think you can drive one with a dead battery pack.

Not that it will happen very often - the Prius is about the most reliable car in the world and I bet most if not all those taxis with 300k on the clock are working just fine.

www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/what-happens-when-a...l

Intersting to see that a) they still can run on a 'dead' hybrid (not starter) battery, though with a terrible drop in mpg (dead weight) but their more generic hybrid battery can be brought back to life somewhat more cheaply at $1k via an indie's slight of hand compared to $4-4.5k for a full replacement at a main dealer.

I agree that the less generic systems of EVs may be something that holds them back from cheaper usage costs later in life. I noted that the car itself in the article was only worth about $1.5k, not much more than the cheapest battery 'replacement' (refurbishment).

Someone in the UK currently who can only afford a £1k banger won't be able to afford another £1500 for a battery refurbishment, which is why a hybrid at least can be used, unlike an EV where it has no other motive power source.

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used - at least once their original warranty runs out. Hopefully this would significantly reduce the cost of replacements (partial and full ones), which would significantly help the 'banger' end of the market.

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Sat 20 Mar 2021 06:24

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - edlithgow

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used - at least once their original warranty runs out. Hopefully this would significantly reduce the cost of replacements (partial and full ones), which would significantly help the 'banger' end of the market.

I'm thinking of becoming a Nigerian lawyer with access to Nazi Gold in Swiss Bank Accounts, but I need full access to your savings account to launder the money.

I assume you wouldn't have a problem with this, since you have a refreshingly positive and hopeful outlook.

(Almost forgot the :) Phew! now I'm covered)

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Sat 20 Mar 2021 10:53

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Engineer Andy

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used - at least once their original warranty runs out. Hopefully this would significantly reduce the cost of replacements (partial and full ones), which would significantly help the 'banger' end of the market.

I'm thinking of becoming a Nigerian lawyer with access to Nazi Gold in Swiss Bank Accounts, but I need full access to your savings account to launder the money.

I assume you wouldn't have a problem with this, since you have a refreshingly positive and hopeful outlook.

:)

(Almost forgot the :) Phew! now I'm covered)

I was being optimistic/idealistic - if no-one did that, we'd still be living in mud huts. Besides, isn't that a carrot and stick thing that governments should be engaging in?

PS. It would've saved time if you had just said "Oh look, a flock of pigs went by..." :-)

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Tue 23 Mar 2021 00:37

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - edlithgow

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used - at least once their original warranty runs out. Hopefully this would significantly reduce the cost of replacements (partial and full ones), which would significantly help the 'banger' end of the market.

I'm thinking of becoming a Nigerian lawyer with access to Nazi Gold in Swiss Bank Accounts, but I need full access to your savings account to launder the money.

I assume you wouldn't have a problem with this, since you have a refreshingly positive and hopeful outlook.

:)

(Almost forgot the :) Phew! now I'm covered)

I was being optimistic/idealistic - if no-one did that, we'd still be living in mud huts. Besides, isn't that a carrot and stick thing that governments should be engaging in?

PS. It would've saved time if you had just said "Oh look, a flo, ck of pigs went by..." :-)

As I read the reports from the cutting edge of the confrontation with corporate technology (newish car maintenance) they now, through component coding, potentially or actually have complete control over whether a car can be repaired, and over how much it is going to cost.

They aren't going to surrender that power with electric vehicles unless they are forced to, and it doesn't seem to be at the top of many governments legislative hit list.

Incidentally, I met a lot of people living in mud huts in Israeli-occupied Jordan around 1980. They had been forced there by superior power, and the optimistic ones were still there. The realists had got out, or died trying.

I didn't see any pigs, obviously.

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Sat 20 Mar 2021 15:35

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

.

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used - at least once their original warranty runs out. Hopefully this would significantly reduce the cost of replacements (partial and full ones), which would significantly help the 'banger' end of the market.

My guess is a market/industry will develop to repair/refurbish them just like there is one now for engine rebuilding, fitting a new clutch or repairing electronic units instead of replacing them. If there is demand, it will happen.

There are, of course, currently many things which can got wrong costing the value of a car on any banger,

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Sat 20 Mar 2021 15:41

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - skidpan

Hopefully car makes will come together to standardise the design of the battery pack systems so generic packs can be used

This is not going to happen. Like all fuel tanks are shaped to suit the car the battery packs are shaped to suit the car, I would wager that Toyota use different ones on their different models.

Not only that but the capacity varies greatly as well just like fuel tank size varies.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 07:36

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - barney100

£30,000 for a Corsa, you're 'having a laugh.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 07:34

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - barney100

Electric cars are like the early computers, I paid 2K for my first computer and it would be a museum piece now. You can get a decent laptop for £250 now which would out perform the old computer many times over. I think the same will happen with electric cars on a different scale. The range will get better and better, charging will get quicker and quicker and today's EVs will look old tech very soon. Will be interesting to see where the Government will recoup it's fuel duty revenue from when we are all electric.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 11:19

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - pd

As far as used Leafs are concerned generally they seem to be holding up quite well.

It seems to depend on whether the car has had lots of small top-ups or fast charges as much as age and mileage as to the condition of the battery.

The good thing about the original Leaf is that it has a very bold condition gauge on the dash which starts off at 12 blobs and loses a blob as the battery degrades, It is quite surprising how many 6-7 year old ones there seem to be with 12 blobs remaining and even early 12 plate ones with lots of miles with 10 or 11.

Batteries tend to degrade steadily so it is unlikely anyone would buy an electric car and it suddenly "go" - certainly no more likely than a sudden engine failure writing off an ICE one.

I get the impression most EVs are holding up better battery life wise than most - including the manufacturers - thought they would.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 12:31

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - mcb100

I wonder how many cars with a list price of £36,000 will soon have a price of £34,995?

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 12:59

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - sammy1

I wonder how many cars with a list price of £36,000 will soon have a price of £34,995

Nice one! I still would not spend the money.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 17:22

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Brit_in_Germany

Just ordered a EV shopping trolley (Renault Zoe) and a family plug-in. Total state grant EUR 11,000 and a dealer contribution of EUR 5,750 (in fact both dealers offered more). That is how to encourage the take-up of EVs.

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 19:02

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - _

I wonder how many cars with a list price of £36,000 will soon have a price of £34,995?

How right you are...

Citroen e-C4 price cut responds new plug-in car grant criteriaA list price reduction of £550 means the range-topping version of new Citroen e-C4 still qualifies for the reduced plug-in car grant

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Fri 19 Mar 2021 21:07

Any - - More 'logic' - EV grant cut!! - Engineer Andy

I wonder how many cars with a list price of £36,000 will soon have a price of £34,995?

How right you are...
Citroen e-C4 price cut responds new plug-in car grant criteriaA list price reduction of £550 means the range-topping version of new Citroen e-C4 still qualifies for the reduced plug-in car grant

Paid for by price rises in ICE cars or servicing costs, perhaps? I've never known a car manufacturer just subsume any reductions and not pass them on elsewhere.

I suspect that limit will either be frozen or even drop over the coming years as the technology gets cheaper and new EV prices fall as a result.

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