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Renault Avantime - sean
Just reading "used car buyer" this month.

"Quirky,wacky,weird" words you'll use when discussing Renault's short-lived model range flagship. The Avantime was introduced in April 2002 and killed in April 2003. They sold 4500 worldwide and 300 in the UK.

People paid £27,000 for the Privilege model new, and the value now is plummeting "like a spanner down a lift shaft".

Makes one glad one bought German? Oh yes.
Renault Avantime - T Lucas
Did the idiot that signed that shed off for production get the tin tack?or just handed back to the loony bin.French car designers,what are they on?
Renault Avantime - Marcos{P}
When I was looking at buying a new W211 E-Class I read a test involving the new E-Class, a Jaguar, BMW 5 series and a Renault Avantime.

Needless to say the Merc came first, so I bought one, then the BMW, the Jaguar next and then right at the bottom was the Avantime. I just couldn't see why it was pitched against these cars in a test like this as it was just awfull but that of course was its downfall.
Renault decided it was going to take the luxury car market by storm with a noddy car!
French Fools
Renault Avantime - sean
I can hardly sit on my seat here, laughing.

Another VERY bright poster in our Forum.

Absolutely right too.

What is most upsetting is that we've been here before. Peugeot 605 or 607 anyone?

Renault Safrane?

It's always the big French barges.

What's worse is that Jeremy Clarkson forecast this on Top Gear. Something about a Renault Vindaloo, some carpy old meat with a hot sauce.

Why not start with good meat in the first place?
Renault Avantime - David Lacey
Travelled in a 3.0 DCi Vel Satis last weekend....very nice it was too!
Renault Avantime - sean
Your lucky day, David.

Go and buy one.

You'll get it cheap.

Keep it 20 years and you'll never notice the depreciation.

Something different in the company car park.

Fantastic, brave etc.
Renault Avantime - David Lacey
Nah....I wouldn't buy one, not at £31K!

Nice smooth ride, mind plus the get-up and go wasn't half bad
Renault Avantime - king arthur
What is most upsetting is that we've been here before. Peugeot
605 or 607 anyone?


There was never anything wrong with the Peugeot 605, apart from it looking too much like the 405. An SVE with the 3.0 24v makes a pretty good drive, and cheap with it.
Renault Avantime - Ben79
Big French Barges; Citroen C6 (when it comes out). Now that WILL depreciate like a stone.

I'm looking forward to when the 2nd year of production models hit the used forecourts, especially with the new V6 HDI engine!

Until then, we'll all love the C5 for its "Mental suspension" as my mate puts it.

Ben
On my 3rd Citroen. Saxo, Xsara, C5.
Renault Avantime - David Lacey
The 605 was far to 405-esque as KA says! The designer needs his pink fluffy dice kicked for producing that!

There will be some \'barge\' bargains around in a few years (months??) time for sure. I wouldn\'t be adverse to a V6 DCi engined barge..

These French \'barges\' are OK until they break down - electrical problems etc etc
Renault Avantime - Pugugly {P}
God bless Renault I say.

It has flair, imagination, style and dares to be different..the spin off Megane is a very pretty car makes a change from all the other grey porridge on the roads.

Still I wouldn't buy one - perhaps Renault need to look at their branding.
Renault Avantime - David Lacey
It's just that "big-ass" back-end that sets the doubts in my mind.......
Renault Avantime - BMDUBYA
I think the same can be said about the VW Phaeton, if these kind of car makers want to take on the 'upmarket' car makers why not launch a new brand, i.e Toyota and Lexus, after all who wants to spend £68k on a VW??? I dont.
Renault Avantime - joe
But that's just silly! If the Phaeton is as good as the equivalent BMW or Merc, why discriminate agaisnt it because it is "just" a VW? The answer I suppose is that it will depreciate, but surely this is then a self fulfilling prophecy?

Renault Avantime - joe
P.S

BMW used to be a bubble car manufacturer. They managed to go upmarket, why shouldn't anyone else? Also, VW do have 2 brands, 3 if you count both Skoda and Seat. Why not let these brands fill the gap occupied by VW and let VW move up into the exec market?
Renault Avantime - Thommo
The Phaeton looks like a superb vehicle and assuming that anyone buys one for £60k and that Clarkson is right that it will only be worth £20kish after three years then I very well might have one... after three years that is.
Renault Avantime - king arthur
P.S
BMW used to be a bubble car manufacturer. They managed to
go upmarket, why shouldn't anyone else? Also, VW do have 2
brands, 3 if you count both Skoda and Seat. Why not
let these brands fill the gap occupied by VW and let
VW move up into the exec market?


They have four if you count Audi. And five if you count Bentley...oh and there's Lamborghini as well now, and don't they own Bugatti too?

As for BMW, yes they made bubble cars, but before that they made large upmarket cars such as the 501, 502 and 508, and the 507 roadster which was the inspiration for the Z8.
Renault Avantime - sean
Why not let these brands fill the gap occupied by VW and let VW move up into the exec market?

What, like owning Audi, Bentley and Lamborghini? (Which they do.)
Renault Avantime - v8man
During the war, BMW made saucepans! Not a lot of people know that!
Renault Avantime - Malcolm_L
and some pretty competent aircraft engines - now if Renault made
3 piece suites?!
Renault Avantime - bartycrouch
One aim was to give current VW owners a way to trade up. Only a very small percent of ex-VW owners traded up to an Audi. This meant that the VW group was loosing customers with a very high disposable income.

They also claim the Phaeton is for a new breed of luxury car owner, but I haven't seen anything on the demographic of this group so couldn't possibly comment.

I think the long-term idea is Audi competes with BMW and the Phaeton/Touareg with Mercedes.

It is a big gamble and it is also a car brought in at a time of big changes at the top of VW. Would Bernd Pischetsrieder (new CEO)have given the go ahead for the project? He wouldn't be able to do anything about the release of a new car, but he has already said there will be no replacements for the A2 and Lupo/Arosa.

He is also keen to stop the "internal competition" between VW Group companies.







Renault Avantime - sean
Oh dear!

I'm going back 30 years now, to the British bike industry. No more BSA Bantam, no more Triumph Tiger Cub, even no more 250s, 350s, as we will concentrate where the profits are at the larger capacity end.

Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki came in with 50s, 90s, 125s,250s and hooked everyone, who stayed with them into the bigger bikes.

Ferdinand Piech was brilliant at VW. My daughter's Arosa has an amazing number of parts identical to my Golf, the A4, A6, Passat, etc etc.

He did it partly with economy of scale.

What supplier won't sell 5 million components cheaper than 10 slight variations, half a million times over?

Hope Pischetsrieder isn't going to help VW in the way he helped Rover. I know, long story. I have read the book.
Renault Avantime - Pugugly {P}
"Hope Pischetsrieder isn't going to help VW in the way he helped Rover. I know, long story. I have read the book."

I was thinking this when you saying what a great bloke he is !
Renault Avantime - bartycrouch
I don't think the Lupo makes them any money. I think the same is true of the A2. I like the Lupo/Arosa a lot, but the Lupo has to be on permanent VW discount and the manufacturing costs are probably not far off the Polo.
Renault Avantime - Sofa Spud
>>I think the same can be said about the VW Phaeton, if these >>kind of car makers want to take on the 'upmarket' car makers >>why not launch a new brand, i.e Toyota and Lexus, after all >>who wants to spend £68k on a VW???

In VW's case, they own Audi and Bentley, not to mention Lamborghini and Bugatti! No excuse for not using one of those brands - except that the Phaeton does look nice - bland but easy on the eye, like a big Passat. I've only seen one.

Cheers, Sofa Spud
Renault Avantime - marktop
Did the idiot that signed that shed off for production get
the tin tack?or just handed back to the loony bin.French car
designers,what are they on?


I was amazed at the design and originality of the the Avantime, true it struggles to compete with the luxury market but in its own right it stands proud as a unique and original car. Go buy a boring german car or a copy cat Japanese car and prove that you need somebody else to think for you - or go make a desicion for yourself. The Avantime can not be missed or ignored, a truly rare acheivement in modern car design. Design today seems to be led by the french, so be careful before you knock it, as no doubt you will soon be driving a watered down german/jap version very soon.
Renault Avantime - v8man
I think Renault have lost the plot. Maybe they are competing with BMW's Chris Bangle to see who can design the most hideous car. I used to like the seven series - it was hansome, not now!
Renault Avantime - DavidHM
Are we talking Vel Satis or Avantime here?

Either way, you'd have to be astonishingly brave to take one on new. Whether or not these cars are competent is a side issue; the price, given that they're a re-hash of the Laguna platform, is astonishing, the image non existent, and the depreciation laughable unless you're paying.

I guess French manufacturers look at the relatively small investment involved as chicken feed offset by the domestic market and the loss of face if they stopped making 'em - if they're breaking even on a basic Laguna at ~£12k they must be making upwards of £10k on every top model sold to a private punter, even with a discount.
Renault Avantime - Altea Ego
As befits my name its time i stepped in and defended Renault! On the whole I say that renault should be applauded. Over recent history they have not been afraid to experiment. They have allowed designers to express something different and pushed the cars into production. Sometimes it works Scenic, Laguna (it is pretty), Espace, Megane (ok jury is out on that one but its growing on me). Sometimes it does not, Vel Satis, Aventime.

I suspect given the very poor sales of all* French barges outside of France - they were trying to break the mould and create a new class or image. Ok its failed, but dont knock them for trying. If no-one tried to be different or improve we would all be driving Marina's..............................

*(ok C5 excepted, Citroen seem to doing well with a combination of price and return to traditional Citroen values - quirkiness!)
Renault Avantime - Pugugly {P}
I agree,

French buyers are buy French which is why they have an indiginous
car industry (and why we don't perhaps ??), when you are in France next have a look at everything and anything, from drinks glasses to fighter aircraft generally French made, despite the propoganda in this country France has not gone down the homogonous euro-way keeping a distinctive national identity in everything they do...

Keeep it up Renault.

Renault Avantime - T Lucas
Even the French and Belgians won't buy that shed,and these days you do see alot more VW,BMW and MB on the roads in France.They also seem to have taken to the Yaris in a big way,Japanese brands having been very under represented in the past.
Renault Avantime - Mondaywoe
I'm surprised the C5 isn't seen as representing 'quirkiness' or 'traditional Citroen values'. After all, it's the only Cit left with 'proper' Citroen suspension and believe me, under that relatively uninspiring bodyshell there's enough quirkiness to sink a battleship!

Graeme :-)
Renault Avantime - bazza
Agree RP, Renault should be applauded for pushing the design frontiers. They may have failed with the Avantime but they sure got it right with the Scenic, a car that's changed the face of family car design. Also, hats off to Citroen for the DS, the GS,the BX, the XM, the Xantia etc etc. It's very trendy to knock French cars but my ZX was a far superior car to my Golf
Baz
Renault Avantime - peterb
The Avantime and Vel Satis can't even compete with other no-image large cars (Camry, QX, Omega) as past history suggests these others will be more reliable.

I actually quite like the Avantime but can't imagine ever spending my own money on one. The Vel Satis is much less pretty than the (2 door?) concept car on show in Renualt's Champs Elysees showroom.
Renault Avantime - Citroënian {P}
This has all come up before but I'll add my 2p again.

I love the Avantime and given the opportunity I'll be having one parked on the drive. And seeing that they depreciate heavily, that's probably a possibility.

It's a sad old world we live in when any car that doesn't conform to the stereotypes is slated - I was wondering what would have happened to the Avantime with an Audi or BMW badge on it, but then the BMW Coupe (Z3 van type thing) hasn't really set the world on fire either.

They mightn't always hit the mark or be the most reliable but Renault and Citroen have given us some very interesting cars - Renault Sport Spider anyone? Who else does a Pluriel?

The Xsara was disappointingly boring after the ZX, and having been playing with a Scenic II this last week, it's not as interesting as say a Multipla or a Zafira as it seems to want to conform more to class stereotype.

Vive le France!


Lee
MINI adventure in progress
Renault Avantime - Ben79
The Xsara may look boring, but a spell in the drivers seat and a country road will make you change your mind.

Ben
On my 3rd Citroen. Saxo, Xsara, C5.
Renault Avantime - marktop
snip

Swearing will not be tollerated - hence whole post removed. DD
Renault Avantime - Imagos
that'll get you into trouble.
Renault Avantime - knackerdan
Being the owner of a BMW 330 sport and an Avantime 3.0 Privalege, i guess i am in a position to talk about the pros and cons of the avantime against a more traditional tourer.

On the cost frost I bought the Avantime [ex demo with 8k on the clock] for 14k, its alot of car for the price and it does have a presence on the road especially with the windows down. It grows on you hoenstly.

I have had no end of positive feedback once people get the chance to experience it. There are a few niggles but I alos have a few with the BMW. I admit the build quality is not a good as the BMW but at 14k it did not expect it to be.

I want to add that i plan to sell my BMW this year a space is an issue great news its three years old and i have only lost 14.5k on it!
Renault Avantime - machika
As anyone who has seen my posts before will know, I am a great fan of Citroens (and Peugeots for that matter). Over a period of 17 years I have now driven/owned, over prolonged periods, two 309s, a ZX, a Xantia (which we still own) and now a C5. I did have also driven for a short period, a 505 and a 605. Whatever one thinks of the looks of the cars concerned, they all had good/excellent handling and excellent ride quality. Despite some minor annoying niggles with the ZX, they were/are very reliable. I was particularly impressed with the 605. Its looks may have been too similar to the 405 but it wasn't an odd looking car. It also had super handling (definitely not barge like) and ride quality, and bags of legroom in the back. Odd looks didn't stop the British public from buying Ford Scorpios, but then it is a Ford, so that's alright then.

At the minute I am looking forward to seeing the new C4 in the flesh. One thing for sure is that it will wonderful value for money and with the new 136bhp 2.0 HDI up front, it should be provide a rewarding drive.

I haven't much experience of Renaults, except for a short term with a Renault 9, which was a bit of a dog. For those who don't like the look of the new Megane hatchback, take a look at the saloon version, it looks much better than a Focus saloon to my eyes.

Renault Avantime - Big Cat
The reason the Yaris is popular in France is because it is made there. The french always put themselves first, even when they produce poor cars.
Renault Avantime - peterb
The question for me is why do they make RHD versions of the big barges? They don't sell here, and I can't imagine them selling many in Japan or down under.
Renault Avantime - machika
The reason the Yaris is popular in France is because it
is made there. The french always put themselves first, even when
they produce poor cars.


Just like Brits have always bought Fords and Vauxhalls, because they think they are British cars made by British companies. In HJ's recent road test of the Nissan Primera you will see it is as British as any car that is currently manufactured. Designed in Britain, engineered in Britain and made in Britain (and, of course, owned by Renault).

At least Renault and PSA are truly French companies, so the French are supporting their heritage and their economy by buying these cars. Our car manufacturing heritage sort of drifted away (apart from Rover, which nearly did and which I hope keeps going).
Renault Avantime - HF
Is this the same Sean that I think it is?

If so, didn't know you were back - good to see you!
HF
Renault Avantime - Dynamic Dave
Is this the same Sean that I think it is?


HF, check the date this thread was started - 2003.

But yes, Sean is back, seen recently in Tech Matters, even though he did say that he would never grace these forums again - or words to that effect.
Renault Avantime - Imagos
For the first time today I had a good look round an Avantime, I poked and prodded for half an hour and amazingly the Anti Renault views i've had over the years have wained a little bit more.. (again!) First it was the Vel Satis I drove for a day several weeks ago which left a deep impression on me, even to the extent of wanting one. Now it's the blue Avantime (why are they all blue?) has moved the emotions once again. I know 2 doors are no good for nothing, the fact of the freefall depreciation (who cares?) but for me it's the 'i'm different' statement you're giving out. You just know everyone going to look at you.

I loved the luxury interior, leather seats, Elevated driving position, Quirky dashboard, outrageous and bold looks etc etc..

In terms of making an impression this vehicle is in supercar territory.. I just know i'd feel good driving it and thats an absolute rarity with me and that very few cars do that. So it's another Renault that gets the thumbs up from me.

If you're a true petrolhead you have to admire a mainstream car maker like Renault for producing bold products like the Avantime/Vel Satis.

Just hope Renault family don't read this (still dislike the Megane dash mate)
Renault Avantime - peterb
I'd love an Avantime. But it's hard to imagine spending my own money on one.....

Does anyone have a feel for used prices?

Renault Avantime - Altea Ego
Read what? (smirk)

I hated the Aventime when it appeared, I went for a prod and poke shortly after it came out and didnt like what i saw.

I have seen it on the road, been for subsequent prod and poke sessions and now love it! What a glorious beast it is.

Being passed by one is a "what the ???? in the mirror" and a "Woooooooo" moment as it appears and passes.