Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - _

The adventures of a luxemburg family with a e-niro in France on a driving holiday

The Jolivet family

from Luxembourg recently started driving an electric car: the Korean electric SUV Kia E-Niro. The four of them set off on their first e-car vacation at the beginning of August. In France, however, they experienced their blue miracle. For EFAHRER.com, father of the family Alexander Jolivet summarized his electric Tour de France.
efahrer.chip.de/news/familie-faehrt-im-e-auto-nach...3

I'm sure someone can translate it.

Hilarious.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - misar

Google Translate has no problem translating the article on the fly.

Assuming they fit a decent sized fuel tank, Mazda's plan for a rotary engine range extender is beginning to look like a smart EV idea for the next few years.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - craig-pd130

Assuming they fit a decent sized fuel tank, Mazda's plan for a rotary engine range extender is beginning to look like a smart EV idea for the next few years.

I wish the Bladon Jet range extender used in the Jaguar EV prototype could be made mainstream. Even if the Bladon unit is only the size of a suitcase, I want a jet car!

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - BPL

Google Translate has no problem translating the article on the fly.

Assuming they fit a decent sized fuel tank, Mazda's plan for a rotary engine range extender is beginning to look like a smart EV idea for the next few years.

Any links to that? Small range extenders seem the ideal solution, especially with manual override.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Engineer Andy

There you go:

translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&a...3

What a palather this experience was! I wonder Avant if you are now having second thoughts over going the EV route? Imagine if ICE car onwers had that sort of experience at loads of filling stations? It would be the petrol shortages of 20 & 45-50 years ago all over again!

I'd rather let others be the beta-tester on the EV experience. I agree with misar that range extender and PHEVs are perhaps a safer bet at least until the charging issues mentioned are resolved to a greater degree.

I also recall an anecdote from an acquaintance who owns a Tesla car - they were on holiday in Europe and forgot to charge before setting out one day on a trip, and the car just stopped, the wheels completely locked up and they even tried dragging the car along (towed) to the nearest charging station (a few miles away from where they's stopped).

I don't recall how things ended up though, including the condition of the tyres!

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - bathtub tom

Are there any diesel hybrids? With Toyota running Atkinson cycle, I would've thought diesel would be ideal. Railway engines have been doing it for years.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - mcb100
Previous generation Peugeot 3008 could be had in a diesel/electric hybrid.
I suspect that the power characteristics of the two means of propulsion were too similar to be a resounding success.
Don’t railway locomotives burn diesel in generators to then create electricity, which propels the train? More like a range extender if you’re looking for a car equivalent.
Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Engineer Andy

Are there any diesel hybrids? With Toyota running Atkinson cycle, I would've thought diesel would be ideal. Railway engines have been doing it for years.

Ditto, although at least some of the engines (e.g. the HST power units) are diesel-electric generators and don't provide motive power directly from the diesel 'engine'. The MMUs probably do though.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Bromptonaut

Ditto, although at least some of the engines (e.g. the HST power units) are diesel-electric generators and don't provide motive power directly from the diesel 'engine'. The MMUs probably do though.

Locomotives from the British Rail modernisation plan from fifties on were mostly diesel electric these included the Peak Classes mostly on London Midland, the mighty Deltics on Eastern and of course the ubiquitous Brush Type 4, later Class 47. The only significant deviation was on the Western Region who used various Diesel Hydraulics including Warships, Hymeks and the 'Westerns'. Although originally classed as Multiple Units of Class 253/254 the HST was really a push pull with a loco, later formally Class 43, at either end.

The Bombardier Voyagers and Meridians were probably the only true main line/high speed Diesel Electric Multiple Units. In that line I ignore the current 'bi-mode' hybrids.

There were a few early DEMU's on suburban/South East routes, mostly on non electrified lines in to the south of London. BR did produce an experimental 'modern' DEMU in the early eighties, the Class 210 based on then current electric units. It was trialled on various routes and I actually travelled on one between Preston (I think) and Blackburn in 82/3. Much nicer than the so called classic Diesel Mechanical units, which usually had a 3 speed automatic gearbox, but it turned out to be a design dead end.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - BPL

Are there any diesel hybrids? With Toyota running Atkinson cycle, I would've thought diesel would be ideal. Railway engines have been doing it for years.

Mercedes and Volvo. May help save the \DPF if forced to lekky for the short journeys. Railway locos are Diesel -electric not hybrid

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Avant

"I wonder Avant if you are now having second thoughts over going the EV route?"

Andy, not for the first time, I would really like to buy you a pint. When you've drunk half of it, I'd like to try to persuade you that your glass is half full rather than half empty.

I can assure you that I wouldn't have ordered an E-Niro unless (a) we had a petrol car as well; (b) we could install a charger at home; and (c) it could do 250+ miles on a "tankful". I hope to keep visits to public chargers to an absolute minimum.

OK, I know I'm lucky in being able to answer yes to all the above. The 'day of the EV' isn't here yet, not until science discovers a way of charging EVs parked on the street in realistic numbers.

Thanks ORB for the link: the infrastructure seems to be even worse in France than it is in the UK. If we ever have a holiday in France, it'll definitely be in the cabriolet.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - focussed

As of September 2020 there are nearly 30,000 public charging points in France, so I don't know why this story has got legs.

www.autoplus.fr/environnement/voiture-electrique-c...0

The article says there is about one charging point for every 8 pure electric vehicles. or one for every 10 including hybrids.

Even our local small town has one for two cars - we have only about 1300 inhabitants in the whole commune!

Edited by focussed on 11/11/2020 at 10:07

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Sofa Spud

Science doesn't need to discover a way of charging EVs parked on the street in realistic numbers because several technology companies have already designed methods of doing just that.

The problem is with cost and rolling out the technology.

For people who can't charge their cars at home, rapid charging at supermarkets while doing the shopping looks like the best bet. Supermarket charging facilities are scaleable as the number of EVs increases. Also canopies can be built over the parking areas and these could be covered in solar panels.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - RT

For people who can't charge their cars at home, rapid charging at supermarkets while doing the shopping looks like the best bet.

Doesn't solve the problem for many people - if the supermarket is 5-10 miles away there won't be much discharge to top-up - but when you go for a day out in the countryside, parking where there's no mains electricity, let alone chargers, you need to be able to charge at home.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - focussed

The original article highlights the basic flaw in the "electric vehicles for everybody by a certain date" diktat.

There is a pollution problem in large town and cities caused by too many IC vehicles in too small a space.

Ok - electric cars only allowed within city/town limits. Pollution problems solved.

Public transport and deliveries within those areas also must go electric.

For travel outside of large towns and cities we keep the already very clean Euro 5 and 6 petrol and diesel vehicles that we have now.

Everybody happy - except the climate change loons of course!

Edited by focussed on 11/11/2020 at 13:04

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Terry W

Our friend from Luxembourg is clearly committed to a greener future. He is also naive, foolish or wants to prove a point to stimulate development of a better charging infrastructure.

Right now EVs easily meet the needs of those who have an ICE option for longer journeys. Own driveway and charging point are desirable, but not absolutely essential.

Many rarely do a journey of more than 50 miles (most car users) and then have the option to hire as required. For them EV is an option. We are at the Betamax vs VHS stage of recharging infrastructure - in a few years time it will look very different.

Starting out on a journey of 1000km in an EV which will likely need recharging 3 times en route is a triumph of optimism over common sense. Or plain stupid!

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - BPL

OK, I know I'm lucky in being able to answer yes to all the above. The 'day of the EV' isn't here yet, not until science discovers a way of charging EVs parked on the street in realistic numbers.

I don't know why it would be so hard to have power outlets at the kerb in cities. After all the pavements have water gas lekky cable TV etc buried there

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Terry W

There is no reason why kerbside charging is difficult bar cost. Main issue is that a car will hog a charging point for possibly 16 hours a day (or more) when with moderately fast charging it may averagely need a couple of hours once or twice a week.

So supermarkets, motorway services, retail parks, shopping centres, workplaces is probably preferable location where security, maintenance etc is probably better.

-

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - sammy1

I don't know why it would be so hard to have power outlets at the kerb in cities. After all the pavements have water gas lekky cable TV etc buried there

How are you going to keep water out if at ground level, You have to have a plug to connect which must be kept dry. I cannot see how you can have multiple plugs mounted vertically as pedestrians would be falling over them. Security of the charging is another problem with a cable open to vandals. I think some system of remotely charging is being looked at, how this will work I don't know.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - misar

I don't know why it would be so hard to have power outlets at the kerb in cities. After all the pavements have water gas lekky cable TV etc buried there

How are you going to keep water out if at ground level, You have to have a plug to connect which must be kept dry. I cannot see how you can have multiple plugs mounted vertically as pedestrians would be falling over them. Security of the charging is another problem with a cable open to vandals. I think some system of remotely charging is being looked at, how this will work I don't know.

You seem to live in a world without parking meters let alone the existing street charging points. The meters are tallish, require one per car, or sometimes a pair for two cars, and I have yet to see the streets filled with people who have fallen over them. The existing street charging points often look similar.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - mcb100
‘How are you going to keep water out if at ground level, You have to have a plug to connect which must be kept dry. I cannot see how you can have multiple plugs mounted vertically as pedestrians would be falling over them. Security of the charging is another problem with a cable open to vandals. I think some system of remotely charging is being looked at, how this will work I don't know.’

Sutherland Avenue in Westminster has street lamps with EV charge points on them. Park next to a lamp post, plug in, job done. It doesn’t always work, however - when we had LED street lamps put in a few years ago the posts were moved back away from the kerb side to the other side of the pavement, next to the properties, presumably to enable parking on the pavement in a narrow close.
Anyone stupid enough to vandalise an EV charge cable whilst it’s charging will get a rude awakening...
They’ve also locked to the car whilst in use.

Edited by mcb100 on 11/11/2020 at 17:42

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Andrew-T
Anyone stupid enough to vandalise an EV charge cable whilst it’s charging will get a rude awakening... They’ve also locked to the car whilst in use.

There are plenty of stupid people about. Some of them manage to bypass electric meters to supply cannabis farms for instance.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - misar

OK, I know I'm lucky in being able to answer yes to all the above. The 'day of the EV' isn't here yet, not until science discovers a way of charging EVs parked on the street in realistic numbers.

I don't know why it would be so hard to have power outlets at the kerb in cities. After all the pavements have water gas lekky cable TV etc buried there

Agreed, the problem is not the science but the cost of doing it. That will, of course, be recovered from the users so the dream of cheap to run EVs will be just that - a dream.

Reminds me of the early days of nuclear power when we were promised that electricity would be so cheap there would be no point in metering it, just have a fixed charge like water. Mind you, nobody then imagined what water privatisation would do for water rates.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Chris79

I’ve been running a Ioniq electric for 3500 miles now. It replaced a Volvo V40 which I absolutely loved. The only reason the Volvo had to go was the ioniq was available via tusker leasing / work for £300 per month including everything bar electricity. (Based on 18k for 4 years).

it also, as you will all be aware has big tax advantages.

when I first got the car the range was 193, after a week it had become 203 and then when e cold weather hit it fell to 186.

my plan is to use the car for my work commute, a 90 mile round trip. Realistically my only option is to charge at home. There are stations on my route but when you finish at 2am the last thing you want to do is pull over and sit there for an hour when bed is calling!

so far the car has proved to be boringly competent. It does exactly what it says on the tin. As long as I stay to 65 on the motorway the displayed range is the same as the actual range. I use it in eco mode which does restrict the off the line performance but is adequate for the congested roads of the south east.

if you want to reduce the range turning the heater/ac on seems to reduce the range by 20 miles initially although if you turn it off 30 minutes later you get a big chunk of that back.

we have charged it once on the public network, it worked fine and I was surprised to see on my return after 4 hours that people were queueing for the 3 available chargers.

prior to this i did try to charge it as a test run close to home. It was an absolute disaster and I suspect if I was reliant on public charging points I’d be disappointed.

on the whole as a commuter car in the first instance it has been a huge success. I’ll report back after a few more miles to see if it continues to impress.

my only criticism is that for a car that costs north of 30k the interior needs to be better. It’s not that it’s poor quality, everything seems solid but it just doesn’t feel special. Perhaps the Audi engineers need to be taken to Hyundai to see what constitutes engineering quality, then perhaps the Hyundai interior engineers can pay a visit to Audi to see what an interior should look like!.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - sammy1

Great to see a first hand report on a EV Chris. I live in S Wales and I doubt if there even 50 public charging points here You are somewhat at an advantage with a company EV but as a private owner the cost and infrastructure is a non starter at the moment

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - badbusdriver

Great to see a first hand report on a EV Chris. I live in S Wales and I doubt if there even 50 public charging points here You are somewhat at an advantage with a company EV but as a private owner the cost and infrastructure is a non starter at the moment

Maybe you should have a look at Zap-Map. I have not counted them, but just from looking at it I can safely say there are way more than 50 public charging points in South Wales.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Andrew-T

Great to see a first hand report on a EV Chris. I live in S Wales and I doubt if there even 50 public charging points here

Charging points can appear in very odd places. We were on holiday in backwoods Northumberland 18 months ago and stopped in a small town at a car park intended for users of a local walk. There were maybe 20 parking spaces, plus an EV charging point. As most would be away from their car for a few hours that makes sense, but I felt sure that there must be more pressing need for such a thing in many other places ? Plus the possibility that residents of the small town might be tempted.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Avant

"Perhaps the Audi engineers need to be taken to Hyundai to see what constitutes engineering quality, then perhaps the Hyundai interior engineers can pay a visit to Audi to see what an interior should look like!."

They've all gone to Skoda. The standard of fittings in Audis and VWs has been going down recently - thereby removing one of their USPs - but Skoda's interiors have been getting better.

I agree about Hyundai - when I tried a Kona Electric, the interior fittings were perfectly well screwed together but the decor was reminiscent of a 1950s kitchen.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Terry W

Negativity reigns supreme:

  • 50 charging points in South Wales - there are more than 50 in Cardiff alone
  • kerbside charging points will be flooded - they could be mounted on lamp posts
  • it will all be too expensive - the market will prove or disprove that - it all depends on tax policy anyway
  • batteries will need replacing every few years and cost megabucks - objective analysis would put battery life as far better than an ICE motor - electric is inherently more reliable with less parts

Reality - the government will continue to maintain a tax policy to make EVs more attractive until they command a very large part of the new car market (30%+?) - possibly 5-10 years. They don't use any less energy to get from A to B but they don't pollute towns and cities.

EVs will continue to fall in price as they have done for the last 10 years whilst range has increased. Battery development and economies of scale are the drivers.

Over that period the number of recharging points will increase to keep pace - what retail park, supermarket, hotel, shopping mall etc wants to alienate customers who can afford a new EV.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - sammy1

Maybe you should have a look at Zap-Map. I have not counted them, but just from looking at it I can safely say there are way more than 50 public charging points in South Wales.

BBD if you want to be picky there are about 51 in Cardiff to support a population of some 400k. They are spread over about 10 supply companies and offer various wattages from 3w up. Just how many are compatible to each range of car is anyones guess. No doubt things will improve if the country can afford to keep paying the subsidies.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Andrew-T

They are spread over about 10 supply companies and offer various wattages from 3w up.

You must mean 3kw ... :-) (I hope)

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - BPL

www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-8921085/Can...0

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - pd

I've seen charging points mounted on lamp posts. Liverpool for one has them in quite a few residential streets.

Interestingly, despite the negativity here where only a car with cable brakes and running on leaded petrol will do, amongst people who buy a EV virtually none of them seem to go back to a ICE afterwards. They always replace a EV with an EV. That must mean something.

Edited by pd on 12/11/2020 at 16:35

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - _

I've seen charging points mounted on lamp posts. Liverpool for one has them in quite a few residential streets.

Interestingly, despite the negativity here where only a car with cable brakes and running on leaded petrol will do, amongst people who buy a EV virtually none of them seem to go back to a ICE afterwards. They always replace a EV with an EV. That must mean something.

I have seen lots of kerbside charging points... in Belgium...

I think pretty well all of us are happy with unleaded petrol and hydraulic brakes.... and a few other advances...

And it is each persons personal choice to drive what they drive.

If YOU want an EV, feel free, and in some makes, be prepared to be a beta tester.

If others stick with what they are happy with, well life can be too short nowadays. So just enjoy what you want to enjoy.

Stay safe, and ... stay safe....

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Andrew-T

Interestingly, despite the negativity here where only a car with cable brakes and running on leaded petrol will do, amongst people who buy a EV virtually none of them seem to go back to a ICE afterwards. They always replace a EV with an EV. That must mean something.

It's quite true that the range of an EV would cope with all our driving needs, certainly while there is a pandemic running. However as I have not yet bought any vehicle on 'terms' I would not consider the serious expense of switching to an EV, especially given the small number of trips we now take.

I presume buyers of EVs know what they are buying and have the wherewithal to do that. Perhaps the converse is true for those that don't.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - pd

I'm not sure I'd buy one yet either but mainly because for the motoring I do I don't normally spend that much on a car. If I was in the market for a new car in the £30k-40k range I would seriously consider one but maybe it is a type of car at this stage in their development I would play safe on and lease.

All I would say is that people who buy them seem to really like them. In all the talk about chargers etc. maybe we are forgetting the positive nature of the driving experience which is a factor for many buyers.

Edited by pd on 12/11/2020 at 18:02

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - misar

At present, and for some time to come, happy EV ownership depends on two factors. 1. Having an off-road charging point at home or guaranteed access to same at work. 2. Having an alterative car for trips not within comfortable single charge range from home and back or no wish to make such trips.

That requirement covers a small percentage of UK car owners but I suspect a much larger proportion of current EV owners.

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - Avant

Absolutety correct. I know I'm lucky. If these didn't apply, my next car would probably have been a Toyota Corolla hybrid. I was impressed with the new 2.0 Corolla and I'm sure I'd have been perfectly happy with it.

Edited by Avant on 13/11/2020 at 00:11

Don't try this - Want to go to France with a leccy car? - kiss (keep it simple)

3. Being able to afford a Tesla