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you make a great point .if there no warranty on the brakes why have them do it . their brake discs seem sub standard. so lack of use is fair ware and tear
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I've only had one car with rear discs. I noticed they were corroding, so every now and then I'd perform a hard stop when it was safe. Problem solved.
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It is quite ridiculous fitting rear discs to the vast majority of normal cars, drums would be perfectly adequate for 90% of us, they make better more reliable parking brakes too and require very little servicing.
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I agree a lightweight city car does not need rear disks, drums on rear would be more than adequate, its all our Yaris has.
It does show that low priced cars have cheap components. Our Aygo was similar. Front disks completely shot after 3 years and 12,000 miles all due to moisture build up due to lack of use.
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Our Aygo was similar. Front disks completely shot after 3 years and 12,000 miles all due to moisture build up due to lack of use.
OE?
Same issue here but worn out not rusted out, replaced the first time with OE parts same result, discs made of cheese, third set bought Brembo pads and discs, still waiting for either to wear down after several years.
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Our 2019 Picanto3 has discs on the rear. The brakes work great at the moment and the automatic emergency braking is alarmingly good.
Rear disc brake deterioration is not confined to small cars. My Passat B5.5 estate and my Octavia MKII also did. I've also had lots of problems with drum rear brakes over the decades.
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Rear disc brake deterioration is not confined to small cars. My Passat B5.5 estate and my Octavia MKII also did. I've also had lots of problems with drum rear brakes over the decades.
Citroens such as the BX or Xantia with fully powered brakes on the high pressure hydraulics along with the suspension were notorious for rear disc issues. If the car was mostly driven unladen and with just driver on board the load compensator valve stayed closed and the rear brakes never applied. As the parking brake was on the front wheels even using that didn't clean the rust off rear discs.
Provided the load/height valve detected a load on the rear wheels then hydraulic pressure went to rear brakes. You either took it out for run four up now and then and did some vigorous braking or loaded a few bags of sans in the boot.
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The Aygo was brand new when we bought it. Local mechanic said the vented disk fins had completely rotted and it wasn't unusual on cheap city cars. We replaced with known brand and it was fine until we sold it a few years later.
Yaris has done 4,000 a year and no issues raised with the brakes at recent service.
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It is quite ridiculous fitting rear discs to the vast majority of normal cars, drums would be perfectly adequate for 90% of us, they make better more reliable parking brakes too and require very little servicing.
This problem has been known for a long time. Smaller cars commonly belong to drivers with no wish to drive sportily, which is necessary to make those discs and calipers work. The car has a proportioning system to prevent rear wheels locking with heavy braking, so they are never pushed as hard as front brakes.
Maybe some sporty driving in reverse would do wonders .... the Dutch enjoy that.
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Its not just a Hyundai problem, it affects all small cars with discs, I wish they would stop fitting them on basic small cars.
My Honda Jazz brakes are disks all round., and 8 years and 43,000 miles old.
The rears look polished, shiny with no corrosion...
Four years ago they looked grotty with minor rust. A compete stripdown and greasing all contact points and new Brembo pads not only improved the hadnbrake greatly but also left the disks polished and smooth after 3 months of fitting..
I don't drive very very fast, do mainly urban mileage but we have a LOT of very steep hills so rear bakes work hard..(and get very hot - burn fingers job)
So poor/no maintenance and flat roads, light braking...
Edited by madf on 10/03/2020 at 10:17
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Much depends on quality of disc material and driving style. I bought my Audi A8 when 8yrs old and 49,000 miles. The pads and certainly the discs looked original. It is now at 70,000 and nearly fifteen years old and I shall replace the front pads and grind off the lipping of the front discs this summer. Looks an easy job. Rears are more complicated thanks to the EPB, but u-tube shows how it can be done without recourse to a computer to wind back the piston. The front discs on my 1980 TR7 are original, but it eats pads - which are not much larger than a 50p piece.
Drums are probably best for pensioner's small cars, should last a lifetime (car and pensioner) without attention. Our Focus rear drums have lasted 144,000 miles and 19yrs without inspection but my mechanically challenged son who owns it now has just had to have shoes replaced - and a cylinder because " it's been making a scrapy noise for a bit when I brake, Dad " with no friction material left at all on one collapsed shoe. Iron filings wreck alloys - took ages to clean the wheel.
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the I 10 and jazz share the same rear brakes
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I have similar issues on my gen-1 Mazda 3, mainly because I don't do a lot of miles per year, and most of them are on faster flowing roads so not much in the way of braking needed. I have to remember to occasionally force (safely, of course) a more heavy braking manouvre to clean off the corrosion from the rear discs.
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I have similar issues on my gen-1 Mazda 3, mainly because I don't do a lot of miles per year, and most of them are on faster flowing roads so not much in the way of braking needed. I have to remember to occasionally force (safely, of course) a more heavy braking manouvre to clean off the corrosion from the rear discs.
Exactly. 90% of the braking most cars see is done by the front brakes only, the rears just gather muck and rot unless regularly exercised with some sharp braking on a clear road where safe to do so. It’s not the manufacturers fault and in fact most other cars will suffer the same from lack of use. The Mazda 3 is known for sticking rear callipers particularly on lightly used cars.
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Our Focus rear drums have lasted 144,000 miles and 19yrs without inspection but my mechanically challenged son who owns it now has just had to have shoes replaced - and a cylinder because " it's been making a scrapy noise for a bit when I brake, Dad " with no friction material left at all on one collapsed shoe. Iron filings wreck alloys - took ages to clean the wheel.
Hardly something to brag about. 19 years without inspection is total neglect in the extreme. I would be having words with Trading Standards regarding the garage that did your servicing. If the non-working rear brake had caused an imbalance in your braking (actually it almost certainly did do but you would not notice it at normal braking levels) and in an emergency that imbalance had contributed to an accident it is highly likely you would have been facing serious charges from the Police. OK, you would have no doubt directed them to your trusted mechanic but that would not have made you feel any better if there had been a fatality and whatever happened to the mechanic you would still be facing charges no doubt.
That garage needs to be named and shamed at the very least, with the assistance of Trading Standards possibly even prosecuted.
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I think we know who John F's trusted mechanic is!
When my son bought his 2006 Ibiza around 4 years ago I gave it the once over, including removing the rear drums. One cylinder had been leaking for some time. There was plenty material left on the shoes but the dust had turned to a paste which was near impossible to remove and the drum was scored. Complete rear brake replacement required, which wasn't actually expensive, but routine maintenance would have flagged up the leak and saved c£100.
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I think we know who John F's trusted mechanic is!
When my son bought his 2006 Ibiza around 4 years ago I gave it the once over, including removing the rear drums. One cylinder had been leaking for some time. There was plenty material left on the shoes but the dust had turned to a paste which was near impossible to remove and the drum was scored. Complete rear brake replacement required, which wasn't actually expensive, but routine maintenance would have flagged up the leak and saved c£100.
That's bad luck. I would have thought some leakage would have escaped from the drum and stained the wheel, noticeable during the annual servicing of the brake pipes - clean and grease - something garages don't usually do during their so-called 'service', preferring to wait for the remunerative MoT failure of corroded brake pipes.
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John F. Actually I don't recall there being any external signs of a leak. Had there been I would have used it to beat down the purchase price further. There was so much dust there that it acted as blotting paper. There must have been an awful lot of dust on your Focus after all those years without a clean.
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Our Focus rear drums have lasted 144,000 miles and 19yrs without inspection but my mechanically challenged son who owns it now has just had to have shoes replaced - and a cylinder because " it's been making a scrapy noise for a bit when I brake, Dad " with no friction material left at all on one collapsed shoe. Iron filings wreck alloys - took ages to clean the wheel.
Hardly something to brag about. 19 years without inspection....
Not bragging, just saying. It is not easy to inspect the shoes, and a pointless waste of time to do it every year for something that is known to require no maintenance from one shoe change to another. If he had changed them at first sign of malfunction he could have saved the cost of a cylinder.
That garage needs to be named and shamed at the very least, with the assistance of Trading Standards possibly even prosecuted.
Ho ho! Regulars know that my cars never visit a garage for a 'service'. I do it myself - which is probably why they last for so long. Jeez - 16yrs (our ownership) x cost of annual service? I've saved enough on just one of our cars to buy a half-decent car! Brag over.
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It is not easy to inspect the shoes, and a pointless waste of time to do it every year for something that is known to require no maintenance from one shoe change to another.
Not easy, its simple. On many cars there is a hole to check the state of the lining but I have always preferred to take off the drum to check. Remove wheel, back off adjuster or auto adjuster, remove set studs (if fitted) and pull off drum. Some have the wheel bearing in the drum but if you are lucky they don't. Once you are in there you can see the condition of the shoes and check for any leaks and whilst in there its a simple job to strip out the shoes, clean everything up and grease the necessary areas shown in any good manual with the correct grease. With the aid of a mobile phone you can even take a photo to ensure it all goes back right, manuals sometimes lie.
Or am I missing something and in the 20 ish years since I last took off a drum its been made far more difficult? Cannot see why it should be unless ABS sensors require some special tool.
Ed China still makes a brake service look pretty much like I remember. And I would not trust him to service my push bike.
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Thing is most people, and i would say most car dealer type workshops, do not service brakes properly at all, drums will survive neglect better than discs because the moving parts don't get the amount of road salt and dirt that a disc set up does, i can't recall the last time i encountered a seized wheel cylinder but i know of and have seen lots of seized rear calipers and the ruined discs they cause.
It isn't just cars, many artic trailers are returning to drum brakes because disc brakes are nothing but trouble and cost a fortune to keep in good repair, where the drum brakes offer just as good overall braking and IMHO more reliable braking because there won't be potential seizing of the moving parts that disc braking systems suffer from during winters, drums seldom give any trouble...remember most HGV's operated by reputable companies get inspected every 6 weeks, not the long periods cars are left for between inspection.
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Thing is most people, and i would say most car dealer type workshops, do not service brakes properly at all, drums will survive neglect better than discs because the moving parts don't get the amount of road salt and dirt that a disc set up does, i can't recall the last time i encountered a seized wheel cylinder but i know of and have seen lots of seized rear calipers and the ruined discs they cause.
It isn't just cars, many artic trailers are returning to drum brakes because disc brakes are nothing but trouble and cost a fortune to keep in good repair, where the drum brakes offer just as good overall braking and IMHO more reliable braking because there won't be potential seizing of the moving parts that disc braking systems suffer from during winters, drums seldom give any trouble...remember most HGV's operated by reputable companies get inspected every 6 weeks, not the long periods cars are left for between inspection.
You summed it up perfectly. I own two light weight cars that each only do 5-6k a year. I have never had any premature wear / deterioration issues and I live on the coast. Each year I strip the brakes, clean the parts and lubricate. I also take the wheels off to clean them a couple of times a year and blow out any dust with a compressor (cheapo from Lidl). This is not difficult and doesn't have to be done in one go. Cars are a 108 and 107 so probably the most simple cars on the road.
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It is not easy to inspect the shoes, and a pointless waste of time to do it every year for something that is known to require no maintenance from one shoe change to another.
Not easy, its simple......
Easy on the TR7, not so easy on the Focus.
Some have the wheel bearing in the drum but if you are lucky they don't.
Our Focus does. Best left alone till the 'scrapy' noise. Many a Focus will be scrapped before this if the shoes last as long as ours did (144,000 miles). The dust gets blown away as and when produced.
If it works, don't mend it.
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<< If it works, don't mend it. >>
EDIT - perhaps If it works Properly, don't mend it ....
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<< If it works, don't mend it. >>
EDIT - perhaps If it works Properly, don't mend it ....
Need to mend my wife then :-)
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Our Focus does. Best left alone till the 'scrapy' noise. Many a Focus will be scrapped before this if the shoes last as long as ours did (144,000 miles). The dust gets blown away as and when produced.
How does the dust get blown away, its inside the drum.
As for waiting for the "scrapy" noise that seems to me to be a very irresponsible attitude to take. Keeping the brakes on the car working as efficiently as possible is surely what any responsible owner should be doing, I know I do.
Thank the lord this poster was never tempted to work in the airline sector, imagine what would happen if the pilot had to wait for a noise before any work was done.
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A few years (maybe three, can't remember but evidently too long) after I bought the Skywing I had a total brake failure at low speed while in the middle of a U-turn manouvre. JUST managed to stop on gears and handbrake before ambling into the traffic stream.
Up to that point, they seemed fine.
Investigation showed a detached brake shoe lining, probably due to a leaking wheel cylinder, which I believe heated up the wet brake fluid enough to boil,
Both wheel cylinders needed replaced, and both front calipers later siezed and needed stripped and cleaned. Multiple flushes had still left a lot of muck in the calipers, though the fresh fluid probably stopped further corrosion.
This car was dealer-maintained by the previous owner, and I'd think a lot of the damage happened under that regime, though I continued the neglect for too long.
I no longer think the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mantra should be applied to braking systems.
Edited by edlithgow on 17/03/2020 at 05:50
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A few years ago..... I had a total brake failure at low speed .....
Up to that point, they seemed fine.
Investigation showed a detached brake shoe lining, probably due to a leaking wheel cylinder, which I believe heated up the wet brake fluid enough to boil,
I find it hard to believe that they 'seemed fine' up to the point of total failure. No odd noises? No sign of gradual leakage on wheel? No change in level of brake fluid? No pulling to one side?
The only time I had total brake failure was 50yrs ago. Corroded pipe failure in an old Ford Anglia 100E, sudden loss of fluid. Coming down a hill in the Lake District! Had to drive into ditch and wall to stop. Four up, no injuries - apart from car bodywork. Able to drive very carefully (handbrake and gears) to local garage for repair. Happy daze!
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Our Focus does. Best left alone till the 'scrapy' noise. Many a Focus will be scrapped before this if the shoes last as long as ours did (144,000 miles). The dust gets blown away as and when produced.
How does the dust get blown away, its inside the drum.
The drum is not airtight.
Thank the lord this poster was never tempted to work in the airline sector, imagine what would happen if the pilot had to wait for a noise before any work was done.
Horses for courses. My car is not a plane and would be unlikely to seriously harm either me or anyone else if it suddenly stopped or failed to stop. Many decades ago when I got my PPL I can assure you I checked the plane assiduously - and training for forced landing after engine failure was a no.1 priority.
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<< If it works, don't mend it. >>
EDIT - perhaps If it works Properly, don't mend it ....
The annual MoT checks that it works properly.
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<< If it works, don't mend it. >>
EDIT - perhaps If it works Properly, don't mend it ....
The annual MoT checks that it works properly.
Yes, but this can happen 6 months before the next test ....
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<< If it works, don't mend it. >>
EDIT - perhaps If it works Properly, don't mend it ....
The annual MoT checks that it works properly.
Yes, but this can happen 6 months before the next test ....
It happened 2 months before last week's MoT test. No great problem having a knackered noisy shoe on one rear wheel for a bit (although living 80 miles away my son had to fork out for new shoes and a replacement cylinder). Incidentally, the n/s rear sill needed £100 of welding to pass this year, same place as the o/s did three years ago. Now in its 20th year so we've had our moneysworth! We're keeping it to see how long the cambelt lasts ;-)
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No great problem having a knackered noisy shoe on one rear wheel for a bit
I would suggest that it is a problem having the brakes only working fully on 3 wheels. Just imagine what could happen in an emergency stop, the rear end could suddenly snap sideways making the car difficult if not impossible to control. A vehicle examiner would easily diagnose the cause of the accident and the owner/operator of the vehicle could face prosecution. If a 3rd party happened to be injured or worse imagine the charges.
Its been said before, if people are not prepared to maintain their cars correctly they should consider not owning one.
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No great problem having a knackered noisy shoe on one rear wheel for a bit
I would suggest that it is a problem having the brakes only working fully on 3 wheels. Just imagine what could happen in an emergency stop, the rear end could suddenly snap sideways making the car difficult if not impossible to control.
Highly unlikely. The mileage between detection of the problem and repair was tiny. What is your emergency stop rate per 10,000 miles?
A vehicle examiner would easily diagnose the cause of the accident and the owner/operator of the vehicle could face prosecution. If a 3rd party happened to be injured or worse imagine the charges.
Again, highly unlikely - and easy to defend, especially as the emergency stop is more likely to have been necessary as a result of a third party fault.
Its been said before, if people are not prepared to maintain their cars correctly they should consider not owning one.
There is no easy way to inspect Focus drum brakes. It was discussed some years ago in this thread.....
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/117740/ford-focus-...3
....quite apart from the waste of time and expense it is likely that damage would have been done to the nuts and bearings by undoing them and tightening them up umpteen times over the past nineteen years than just leaving well alone until sign of failure. Chances of a careful expert mechanic using an accurate torque wrench each time?! I rest my case.
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Sudden brake failure experienced in my 2 yo 1974 Mini. No signs of previous leakage from the rear slave cylinder. Did my own servicing. Noted leakage on my previous Mini, Ford Popular 100 E and repaired them. SWMBO Hyundai Getz had a leaky rear cylinder, noted by the servicing garage repaired for £20 or so.
My step sons 10 yo Corsa had sudden brake failure with a leaking rear cylinder. replaced for £20 or so.
What I'm saying is the sticking rear disc brakes were less serious than total brake failures with rear drums.
Edited by Glaikit Wee Scunner {P} on 19/03/2020 at 11:39
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Highly unlikely. The mileage between detection of the problem and repair was tiny. What is your emergency stop rate per 10,000 miles?
You only need to make one emergency stop with a known brake issue and find that you cannot actually stop to turn that situation into something far more serious.
Only a complete fool drives a car with a known brake issue.
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