Too much power to be fun

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:09
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
Having a wee shot of a friends Golf R the other day got me thinking, why are today’s hot hatches not as much fun as those built in the 80’s and 90’s? Am I wearing rose tinted specs or is it true that too much power, too much refinement and too much safety gear has diluted the appeal?

I’ve driven several recent hot hatches including ST Focus, Astra VXR, Mk VII Golf GTi and Golf R plus a rare Volvo C30 T5 and I’ve found all of them left me feeling a bit underwhelmed. Yes they’re all undeniably much faster than the hot hatches of the past but with overly hard suspension and electric rather than hydraulic steering the feel is removed. Too much turbocharged power tends to cause torque steer and there’s little to be gained from high rev antics whenever all the power is much lower down the rev range

Point to point they’re hugely quick but give me a Peugeot 306 GTi 6, Clio, R19 16v or 205/106 GTi any day of the week. All were fun and at much lower speed and far lower cost. The latest ultra hot hatches are £30k plus and boasting 250bhp upwards yet I wouldn’t thank you for one. They’re too fast to be fun on the road today
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:24
Too much power to be fun - Avant

Isn't that why the MX-5 has been so successful for 30 years? It's not nearly as fast as, say, a Golf R, but it's fun because it gives the driver the basic pleasures inherent in a sports car. I expect Skidpan gets the same from his Caterham.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:33
Too much power to be fun - gordonbennet

The traction issue is obvious, far too much power on such comparatively light vehicles, exacerbated by it all being fed through the wrong wheels.

AWD fast smaller cars are where the fun is, and why Subarus (and Mitsi EVo) have such a dedicated following, no grip issues.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:48
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“AWD fast smaller cars are where the fun is, and why Subarus (and Mitsi EVo) have such a dedicated following, no grip issues.”

As a Mitsubishi salesman I’ve driven plenty of early Evo’s and MK I Subaru Impreza’s, all were very entertaining but later cars are over-endowed with weight, power and electronics. The later Subaru’s aren’t fun in the same way and sales plummeted as the joy went and the price rose.

The Golf R is awd yet I found it too quick and quite numb especially with a DSG box doing half the work for you. Give me the limited grip and power of a modest fwd supermini instead. A Peugeot 108 1.2 or a Suzuki Swift 1.0 boosterjet would generate far more smiles in me on a typical B road.
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 18:11
Too much power to be fun - Engineer Andy

The same for the Honda Civic Type R. The early 2000s model sold in big numbers because it was an affordable and very entertaining hot hatch with decent styling, whereas the last two models especially were ugly and souped up considerably to presumably compete with those you mentioned, jacking the price up considerably and losing a huge amount of customers in the process.

I'd bet good money that many now buy the better looking and far more affordable Seat Leon FR, which in 3 door for bears a striking resemblence to the old Type R, or the Fiesta ST,both of which are great driver's cars.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:41
Too much power to be fun - SLO76

Isn't that why the MX-5 has been so successful for 30 years? It's not nearly as fast as, say, a Golf R, but it's fun because it gives the driver the basic pleasures inherent in a sports car. I expect Skidpan gets the same from his Caterham.

Absolutely agree and this where the rare moments of fun I’ve had on the road in recent years has come from. I miss my Mk II 1800. I’d love a new Mk IV probably a base model 1500 with its limited power and grip. I’ve yet to try one but I’ll bet these are a hoot.
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 10:51
Too much power to be fun - NARU

Isn't that why the MX-5 has been so successful for 30 years? ...

It's certainly why I have my mx-5. I've owned it for eight years now, and have no intention of ever selling it.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:14
Too much power to be fun - Andrew-T
They’re too fast to be fun on the road today

Unfortunately, most of today's roads are too full for there to be enough room for much 'fun'.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:32
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

Back in the 80's just like today one of my favourite days out was to Cadwell Park. About 70 miles door to door and only about 2 miles of dual carriageway. Plenty of villages along the route.

Setting off about 7 am on a Sunday in my Golf GTi 8 valve I could get there in an hour without any issues and without breaking the speed limits by any huge percentage (no cameras back then but there were Police bikes with guns in the afternoon). The shortest journey time was 56 minutes but to save those 4 minutes did mean some serious speed on the straighter pieces of road. Never got there any quicker in the first Caterham.

Move onto 2018. Went in the Caterham a few times and with way more power than the Golf (about 175 bhp) and less weight the number of cameras and amount of traffic prevented me from getting there any quicker than about 1 hour 30 minutes. Went in the Superb at the end of the season, still took 1 hour 30 with 150 PS.

So how long would it take me in a Golf R without risking life and limb and my licence, I would guess about 1 hour 30.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:49
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
Agree Skidpan, the roads down there are too busy for fun in anything powerful. You’ve the right idea with a fantastic track day toy like the Caterham. A car needs to be approaching it’s limits for real entertainment and a Golf R or Civic Type R will need miles of empty road and nerves of steel to come close. A Citroen AX GT with its feather weight body, skinny tyres and modest 85bhp could be entertaining at sane speeds in between traffic jams.

A Caterham 160 with its tiny engine and modest grip would be a fun back road toy so would a base model Mazda MX5 or a Toyota GT86. All three not over powered or overly grippy. A rare thing in today’s bar stool boasting world.

Edited by SLO76 on 08/07/2019 at 11:50

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 19:31
Too much power to be fun - Manatee

I completely concur with the sentiment of your thread SLO76. Many everyday modern cars are ludicrously overpowered unless they are to be used on a track.

I have one of those 1.5 litre MX-5's. Before I bought it I had decent test drives in a 1.5 and a 2 litre. I preferred the character of the 1.5. To make it go it has to be driven.

The driver needs to make it rev to produce power when needed - whilst it is perfectly smooth at 2000rpm, at those rpm you have a 30bhp car. It produces less power than a 1.0, 85PS, Ecoboost Ford Focus at any rpm up to about 4000, hence people who have been 'ruined' by forced induction or don't know how to drive 'proper' cars find them gutless. It's not unusual for me to block change 3 gears down if I want to overtake, and there's no chance of it sailing up hills in 6th or even 5th. It reminds me of my dad telling me to "keep the revs up".

In fact when you compare with the icons of our (well my) youth the torque is quite good - somewhere between a 1.6 and a 1.8 Mk1 Golf GTI. Power and full acceleration are a bit higher than either because it revs more. Weight is a bit higher for the MX-5 although by modern standards it is not heavy at around 950Kg without driver (perhaps not coincidentally about the same as the Mk1 MX-5, with very similar performance to the Mk1 1.8 litre cars)

It is outstanding fun, because the performance has to be extracted and can be used. I genuinely don't like very powerful cars, it's no fun at all holding them back all the time and a few seconds on the accelerator puts them well through 70mph.

I agree with you generally about electric PAS, which it has. But it can be steered very precisely and there are benefits. The Mk4 car has a lot of caster which makes it very stable at speed where it is also allowed to weight up. At lower speeds the assistance is higher but not excessive. TBH I thought it was slightly more numb than my previous Mk2 when I first drove one but it's better at high speed and far better than some I have experienced (the otherwise brilliant 2002 Civic we had for 12 years had terrible electric steering).

In September we drove it to Lake Garda and back, via several Alpine passes, and this year we have done the North Coast 500 and other fine Scottish roads in it. I will keep it for as long as I can get in and out of it, or I lose my driving marbles.

The golden age of motoring is nearing its end. I urge anyone who loves driving to try a lowish-powered, agile car with a buzzy naturally aspirated twin cam petrol engine while it's still allowed.

I'll let you know next time I am north of Glasgow.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 11:43
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
They’re too fast to be fun on the road today

Unfortunately, most of today's roads are too full for there to be enough room for much 'fun'.

Not so much up here. There’s loads of empty tarmac and some glorious twists and turns with beautiful scenery.
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:39
Too much power to be fun - Alby Back
Unless you're in the enviable position to afford several vehicles to use for different purposes, most of us have to decide where the sweet spot is that is the intersection on a graph plotting needs, wants, costs and practicalities.

Different criteria apply to different people and those perameters change depending on their current and foreseen circumstances. I guess the success of hot hatches was not least due to the fact that they were also quite useful at being useable everyday cars as well as providing a bit of potential spirited motoring.

I've often reflected though that I've probably had as much motoring fun in the most basic cars I've ever had as I've had in the more capable ones. Getting the best out of a low powered car can be very rewarding and far less danger to your licence.

Not that I don't enjoy driving something special when I get the chance !
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 12:56
Too much power to be fun - Andrew-T
They’re too fast to be fun on the road today

Unfortunately, most of today's roads are too full for there to be enough room for much 'fun'.

Not so much up here. There’s loads of empty tarmac and some glorious twists and turns with beautiful scenery.

Ah yes, SLO - I was forgetting how much the traffic thins out, once one gets north of about Lancaster .... My 'days out' are into NE Wales, where the controllers have recently eliminated the last stretch of unrestricted road on my regular 40-mile run. Yesterday I set out at 8:30 and managed not to stop for anything in the first 28 miles or so, when I met the first red light. The usual obstacles are cyclists enjoying themselves on the A5104.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 16:06
Too much power to be fun - Heidfirst
They’re too fast to be fun on the road today

Unfortunately, most of today's roads are too full for there to be enough room for much 'fun'.

Not so much up here. There’s loads of empty tarmac and some glorious twists and turns with beautiful scenery.

Maybe down in Ayrshire apart from the A/M77 & it's average speed cameras. The central belt is pretty bad though - was over the Duke's Pass in the Trossachs yesterday which used to be a glorious hoon - full of tourists doing 30mph & not enough space between them to make individual overtakes safely . :( I would say that it's only going to get worse (it's now part of the New "Heart 200" that promises to do for that area what the NC500 has done for the NW www.heart200.scot) but apparently the current generation of teenagers aren't learning to drive in nos. :)

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 17:36
Too much power to be fun - groaver

My BRZ was always accused of lacking power but it had all you need to have fun on public highways plus its handling was sublime.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 19:02
Too much power to be fun - Terry W

Fun may be a function of how much of a cars potential perfomance is being used.

A Ferrari is clearly faster accelerating, higher top speed, better absolute roadholding than (say) an MX5. On a track the MX5 would come a distant second!

But for everyday fun the MX5 may win hands down - a basic model can be driven close (60-80%) to its limits on public roads occasionally - in the right place at the right time and invite driver involvement in the experience..

A Ferrari would struggle to deliver more than 40% of its potential on public roads. It then becomes a very expensive posemobile with no real opportunity for driver involvement due to electronic add-ons designed to make the experience a full chat, safer.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 21:17
Too much power to be fun - bathtub tom

I think the most fun I've had was in a Fiat Panda 750. Terminable understeer and trying to get round it. Similarly a Fiat 850 which didn't have enough power to understeer, or oversteer except when lifting off in corners when the back end would step out and controlling that was fun.

The KIA Pride I used for trials and grass autotests was also fun, but absolutely useless on tarmac.

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Mon 8 Jul 2019 23:24
Too much power to be fun - SLO76

I think the most fun I've had was in a Fiat Panda 750. Terminable understeer and trying to get round it. Similarly a Fiat 850 which didn't have enough power to understeer, or oversteer except when lifting off in corners when the back end would step out and controlling that was fun.

The KIA Pride I used for trials and grass autotests was also fun, but absolutely useless on tarmac.

One of the most enjoyable drives I’ve had in my life was in a 1991 Fiat Uno 45 Fire heading up North for a night. Tiny rev happy motor with only 45bhp, lightweight but well chosen gear ratios and skinny tyres but well balanced chassis. More fun than I’ve had in any recent hot hatch.
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Mon 8 Jul 2019 23:53
Too much power to be fun - drd63
I think there’s still plenty of fun to be had driving in the UK irrespective of the car, it’s just that sometimes the car, roads and conditions all come together unexpectedly. Case in point a very cross country blast from Warwick to Rutland in my Argo, pouring rain, standing water, narrow country roads, lots of overtakes. I know the journey would have taken longer in my Mustang and probably in my Wife’s Fiat 124. The Fiat is a delight to drive pretty much any time but especially in the summer with the top down. On the right roads the Mustang is awesome and they can be found even in south of England, early drive from Winchester to Goodwood FOS on Sunday morning was pretty memorable.
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Tue 9 Jul 2019 08:20
Too much power to be fun - Leif
Could it be the size? The current Golf is an elephant in comparison to the svelt product from 30-40 years ago. I am told that the Up GT is more fun than a current Golf, and about the same size as the original Golf. In a smaller car with less plastics around the doors etc, you feel closer to the road, and the speed seems higher than it is.
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Tue 9 Jul 2019 09:24
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“Could it be the size?“

For me it’s the electric power steering which offers nowhere near the feel of the older hydraulic or non-assisted racks. Plus they’re all too powerful especially the front wheel drive cars. Even hot hatch superminis like the Polo, Clio and Fiesta have the guts of 200bhp. The driving and steering wheels are all over the place whenever you try to deploy full power at lower speeds where an older hot hatch like a Clio 16v would be fully usable at any time.

Prices too are far too high today with hot hatches over-complex and gadget laden instead of simple and fun driving tools. Often they’ve complex but rapid changing twin clutch gearboxes sometimes there not even an option of a manual box which is to me essential on a hot hatch. Renault tried to market the current Clio Sport as an auto only and sales totally flopped. It was no fun compared to the old 182/197 Clio’s.
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Tue 9 Jul 2019 10:27
Too much power to be fun - Andrew-T
Prices too are far too high today with hot hatches over-complex and gadget laden instead of simple and fun driving tools.

Back in the day, the joys of the 205 GTi and its imitations were soon reflected in large hikes in insurance premiums as the boy racers tended to crash them. What happens these days?

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 11:23
Too much power to be fun - John F

I agree there's no power-to-fun connection. It's as much fun driving my TR7 as my A8 sport quattro, which can convey more power to each wheel than the TR7 can produce for the whole car! Back in the 1970s motoring was much more fun on uncrowded roads with no speed cameras. In my pioneering Spen King 16 valve Dolomite Sprint I could return from an evening in central London to my home in Northamptonshire in less than an hour!

Edited by John F on 09/07/2019 at 11:30

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 13:14
Too much power to be fun - bazza

I do think the days of the hot hatch are numbered. I can't think of anyone who owns one or yearns for one, back in the 80s and 90s myself and my contemparies would talk for hours about the merits of a gti or an xr3 or going back further we all lusted after the RS 2000, the dolomite Sprint etc. My grown up kids are not the slightest bit interested in cars except maybe EVS. Even the fashion driven friends of my daughter are driving awful stuff like Mokkas about, as they are apparently "cool" ! But performance _ no. To be honest, all cars these days have excess power, even my standard Civic has ridiculous power,more than I'll ever need. Why bother with more when superb engines from the likes of VW are putting out 150 bhp in a cooking shopping hatch!

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 14:35
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

Could it be the size? The current Golf is an elephant in comparison to the svelt product from 30-40 years ago. I am told that the Up GT is more fun than a current Golf, and about the same size as the original Golf

Mates Mrs had recently had an Up GTi but I would honestly say that it is smaller than the original Golf.

Our Fabia is nearer original Golf size (probably between Mk1 and Mk 2 in truth) externally but with the smaller engines there is without doubt more space inside then either.

As for performance our Fabia has 110 PS wheras my old Gold GTi had 112 bhp, very close. The Gold was definitely better on the pubished and magazine 0-60s (down to its lighter weight) but in reality who does 0-60 in the real world. The torque of the 1.0 TSi 148 @ 2000-3500 against 112 @ 4000) definitely makes the Fabia a bit quicker in the gears and allows it to pull a much higher top gear 70 mph was 3500 rpm in the Golf and is 2400 in the Fabia in 6th).

Put the 1.0 TSi in a Mk 2 and that would be interesting. Would beat the 1.8 without a doubt.

1.8 did an average of about 33 mpg, the 1.0 TSi is averaging approx 50 mpg.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 14:40
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

myself and my contemparies would talk for hours about the merits of a gti or an xr3

Had both and I can tell you which was best.

I started hating the XR3i about 2 miles after picking it up. It replaced a 1600 Mk2 Harrier and that car was without a doubt way better. I could not wait to get the 2 year loan paid off and see the back of it. Replaced it with a GTi and replaced that with another GTi. Ran them from 1986 to 1997, did a total of 161,000 miles in them, need I say more.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 15:29
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Anything with 200bhp+ is enjoyable to drive. they are usually "on the throttle" so to speak with very little right foot input. Golf GTI and Suburu WRX very good and if chipped better still. Standard Audi S3 frightening if you put your foot down! Most cars even the 1.0 turbos have much more go than previous generations.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 15:33
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

Golf GTI and Suburu WRX very good and if chipped better still.

Define "better" or do you mean "faster".

I am yet to be convinced that a bloke in his bedroom with a laptop can do a better job of tuning a car than the manufacturer who has a huge development budget and many qualified experts to call on.

All the "f***ing" a chipped Subaru makes does not make them better but it does make it obvious that the driver is a clueless idiot.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 17:17
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Clearly skidpan you not appreciate some of the advantages of chipping a manufacturers set up of a standard car. No, by better I do not necessarily mean faster but by chipping and altering the rev range can give the car better drivability through the REV range and although bigger BHP it is seldom noticeable. In my experience it can also mean a Decrease in fuel consumption or no noticeable difference. Being a mature driver and having owned a Subaru I can tell you that the cars reputation goes before it, chipped or not. I suggest you apologise for the clueless idiot bit to all the Subaru owners who might read this and not be so confrontational in future.

There is a market of professional people in the car industry who develop software for cars which genuinely can improve on the standard set up for a wide range of manufacturers and is also available to diesel owners who perhaps are more concerned with MPG

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 17:30
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

In my experience it can also mean a Decrease in fuel consumption or no noticeable difference.

That is because the dash display reads higher figures than reality. People are disappointedwhen they do a tank to tank check and find out the dash is a bigger liar that an MP.

Being a mature driver and having owned a Subaru I can tell you that the cars reputation goes before it, chipped or not. I suggest you apologise for the clueless idiot bit to all the Subaru owners who might read this and not be so confrontational in future.

No just referring to Subaru owners, it applies to all those who drive round in modified cars that make huge noise and huge smoke with the drivers acting irresponsibly. Only a few weeks ago I was nearly run off the road by an Astra belching smoke and whistling on the over run, luckily a Police car came up another road a few seconds later and I was able to point him the direction the lunatic went, not difficult to follow the smoke. Hope he caught him, impounded the car and gave him enough points to take him off the road.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 18:15
Too much power to be fun - bazza

Ah skidpan, the mk 2 harrier! There was something ridiculously addictive about those and the Escort 1600 sport with stripped out interior. Now those were fun cars, they really were! Why can't we buy something that feels as much fun these days!

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 18:30
Too much power to be fun - NARU

Anything with 200bhp+ is enjoyable to drive...

It wasn't always so. I remember the fun of bad turbo lag.

I hated my Saab 9-5 Aero. I was pleased to change job and get a BMW 330d instead.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 19:05
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

Anything with 200bhp+ is enjoyable to drive...

But where? Only on a track.

At its peak my Caterham had 208 bhp. At the time it was stripped of what trim you get with glass fibre shell seats, weighed 530 kg thus it was 392 bhp/tonne.When I stopped using it at the track I simply reinstated the trim but it was simply impossible to use all the power any of the time and keep your license. Then I had an issue with the oil pressure relief valve which resulted in a damaged crank, that's what you get using non oem oil pumps.

So I put in my old standard engine just to get me through the summer whilst I sourced parts for the tuned motor. The standard engine was as taken from a burned out Mondeo but it had external parts fitted to enable it to work in its new home. It put out about 160 bhp, not bad considering it had probably been to the moon.

With that engine in the car was brilliant, way better on the road than the tuned engine, so brilliant I went out and bought a brand new crate Focus 2 litre engine and sold the damaged engine in bits together with the bits off the crate engine I did not need. Engine cost £750, total sales £550 thus the Focus engine cost me £200, not bad for after what seemed like a bit of a disaster at the time.

11 years later the Focus engine is still in the car in standard spec (other than the bits needed to fit and get it working). Puts out about 175 bhp and drives like a normal road car. Way more pleasure than the peaky engine and in the real world just as fast and more usable (and it does about 35 mpg instead of the 25 mpg the tuned engine did on the road).

Twice a year we go to Scotland, 430 miles door to door, been doing it since about 1994. Route is exactly the same but parts have been improved, however traffic is far busier now.

Back in 1994 we had a 1800 Bluebird with about 80 bhp, used to take us about 8 hours with 3 stops and a refuel.

Then it was Golf TDi 90. Bit quicker in that, 3 stops, no refuel, took us just under 8 hours normally.

In May in the Superb with 150 bhp we had a really good run with no hold up and with a 14 gallon tank no refuel but still 3 stops. Took 7 hours 30 minutes, about 7 hours driving time, average speed 61 mph.

Could we have done it any quicker in a car with 200 + bhp, of course we could but we could have done it considerably quicker in the Superb if we had driven at illegal speeds instead of setting cruise at the true speed limits.

I am fortunate enough to have the ability to buy pretty much the car I want but the Superb suits me just fine. Enough power for the real world (actually its the mid range grunt of the 1.4 TSi that impresses) and great economy.

Why pay a fortune more to get form A to B in the same time.

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 19:39
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Indeed why pay a fortune, a £500 banger could due the trip in about the same time. Individual choice, so stop harping on about your cheap VW

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 20:10
Too much power to be fun - groaver

stop harping on about your cheap VW

Haha! I've got the expensive one [https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/skoda/skoda-superb-20-tsi-272-2019-road-test/] and just back from a holiday to skye and Aviemore.

The fuel trip showed 43.4 mpg at the halfway mark and eventually I managed to get just over 40 mpg out of a tank (calculated) doing anything between 55-65 mph.

Not bad for a 280 hp engine (I think).

As a counterpont, a 2 mile circuit of a local safari park at 6 mph showed 17.8 mpg on the trip!

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 20:49
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Smug huh I just rented a xxxxx from Sixt etc etc and no depreciation!

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 22:00
Too much power to be fun - groaver

I consider myself told!

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 23:51
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Only joking, I like the Superb and that's the one to have

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Tue 9 Jul 2019 22:38
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“Had both and I can tell you which was best.

I started hating the XR3i about 2 miles after picking it up. It replaced a 1600 Mk2 Harrier and that car was without a doubt way better. I could not wait to get the 2 year loan paid off and see the back of it.”

Have to agree. I’ve driven pretty much every 80’s and 90’s hot hatch and the XR3i (a car I always wanted) was a big disappointment on first acquaintance. A Mk II GTi was by far the better car and it only got better with more miles. I preferred the cheaper 8v which was in real life just as quick on the road, in fact it had more low speed pull so actually felt more urgent most of the time.
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Tue 9 Jul 2019 22:52
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“I do think the days of the hot hatch are numbered. I can't think of anyone who owns one or yearns for one, back in the 80s and 90s myself and my contemparies would talk for hours about the merits of a gti or an xr3 or going back further we all lusted after the RS 2000, the dolomite Sprint etc. My grown up kids are not the slightest bit interested in cars”

They’ve become bland appliances and something they will never own, like Radio Rentals they just rent them forever. Kids don’t seem to do car talk at all these days, there’s little interest in maintaining or improving a car they’ll never own. Speak to most of them about motors and they just glaze over. My friends and I were all mad about cars as teens with hours spent debating what was the best hot hatch and tinkering with the heaps we owned.
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Wed 10 Jul 2019 08:51
Too much power to be fun - badbusdriver

I am yet to be convinced that a bloke in his bedroom with a laptop can do a better job of tuning a car than the manufacturer who has a huge development budget and many qualified experts to call on.

You may well have a point if you are starting with a 'performance' car, but what if you have a car using the same engine 'detuned' to fit with its place in the range, its price, or its purpose?.

Is 'chipping' a 1.4TSI 125 Leon up to the 150bhp (as already available in other versions) going to do it any harm, or taking the basic 1.2 TSI up from 84 to 105bhp?. Another example being the current VW Caddy. This can be had with a 2.0 TDI producing either 75 or 102 bhp, both figures being way less than what the engine produces in the Golf GTD (181 bhp). So is 'unlocking' some of the potential we know is in the engine going to harm it?.

Yet another example (and i know this is straying yet further from the topic) is the Hyundai iLoad van. The reason i know about this particular one is because i had looked into getting one for my work. The iLoad is basically just a van version of the i800, which is a huge 8 seat mpv. The i800 uses a 2.5 turbo diesel producing 168bhp, but the iLoad van, with a detuned version of the same engine, only makes 114bhp.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 10:28
Too much power to be fun - Andrew-T

<< Is 'chipping' a 1.4TSI 125 Leon up to the 150bhp (as already available in other versions) going to do it any harm, or taking the basic 1.2 TSI up from 84 to 105bhp?. So is 'unlocking' some of the potential we know is in the engine going to harm it?. >>

Harm it, probably not. But I assume it will put the car in a different emissions category, with all that implies for bureaucracy?

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 10:52
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

Harm it, probably not. But I assume it will put the car in a different emissions category, with all that implies for bureaucracy?

As it stands there is no requirement to get a cars emissions category changed if you modify it. All the authorities could do would be to have all owners of all modified cars submit them for a IVA test which would result in them having annual costs possibly much higher than the original rates.

Cars that are tested under IVA pay VED at rates for a pre 2001 vehicle.

www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-cars-...1

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 15:16
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

The 1.4 Audi/VW/ Skoda is a good scenario of taking the same engine from a manufactured detuned engine through to their perceived top output and it is mostly from their point of view to sell the same product with varying profit margins. By re-mapping/chipping all versions can be taken to increased levels of BHP and drivability through the rev range.

These 3rd party remaps can be detected by the dealerships so it would not be a good idea to chip in warranty, but from experience it does not effect routine servicing.

I wonder if a 3rd party remap would sort out the new 1.5 engine?

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 17:50
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

I wonder if a 3rd party remap would sort out the new 1.5 engine?

I have read that on the Audi which has different driving modes the selection of one particular mode that sharpens up throttle response virtually eliminates the kangarooing when cold and once up to temp there are no issues.

On the Skoda forum in the past there has been much discussion about getting the "Audi Throttle" setting enabled by using VCDS. Apparently this sharpens up the throttle response and although the car has no more power it does feel quicker because there is less delay between the right foot and the engine.

But I have yet to read that anyone with a troublesome Karoq has tried it.

As to a 3rd party remap, all they would do would to be to pour in more fuel to mask the issue which would obviously not be good for the environment or your mpg. If VAG did that and did not get the car Type Approved again there would be another huge outcry, and quite rightly to. With such a mod the engine would probably not meet Euro 6.

If the bloke with a laptop is so good why on earth do VAG not employ him to sort out all their issues?

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 18:40
Too much power to be fun - sammy1

Yes the Audi 1.4 can have 3 driving modes, in DYNAMIC mode the throttle response is increased thus making the car more responsive. This is achieved through the software mapping on the ECU. Clearly VW have not yet come up with a satisfactory software map for the new 1.5 yet or there is indeed a fundamental flaw with this design. I would not at present by this engine.

On the Skoda forum in the past there has been much discussion about getting the "Audi Throttle" setting enabled by using VCDS. Apparently this sharpens up the throttle response and although the car has no more power it does feel quicker because there is less delay between the right foot and the engine.

YES this is exactly what the "the bloke with the laptop does" and which manufactures often don't.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 18:47
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

On the Skoda forum in the past there has been much discussion about getting the "Audi Throttle" setting enabled by using VCDS. Apparently this sharpens up the throttle response and although the car has no more power it does feel quicker because there is less delay between the right foot and the engine.

YES this is exactly what the "the bloke with the laptop does" and which manufactures often don't.

If your bloke with the laptop is only accessing the ECU with VCDS and changing the setting to "Audi" its not a remap. All he is doing is enabling a setting that is deemed to be only available to owners of the posh brand and not the Communist brand. If they are charging huge money to do that there must be loads of idiots out there.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 19:09
Too much power to be fun - skidpan

The joy of a good lightweight hot hatch has largely gone thanks to too much power and lack of feel from electric power steering.

First car we had with power steering was the 1989 Bluebird. It hydraulic and had no feel whatsoever and the car felt unstable at motorway speeds.

Next was a 1996 Golf, hydraulic again and whilst it did have feel it was very heavy almost convincing you that there was a thick goop between the steering wheel and the road.

On to a 1997 Polo and its getting better. Light but the road feel is good.

Move on a few years and we now have 2 Skodas, both with EPS. Both have a good feel and good stability, no issues at all with either. The Seat Leon with the same system was just as good.

Back 9 years to the Kia Ceed SW which was our first car with purely EPS and that had an odd feel at the strait ahead that felt like it needed constant adjustment when it didn't. It could end up feeling very odd if you believed the car.

So no issues with EPS here at present.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 19:52
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
I’ll agree that EPS is getting better with each generation. VAG, Ford and Mazda are the best to date but I still don’t agree that they offer the same feel as a good hydraulic system. I’ve driven countless cars with both setups and the weighting always feels artificial.

Totally agree on the Bluebird. Tough old cars but awful to drive but the later Primera had a very nice PAS system, almost a match for Peugeot and Ford at the time.

For the minor difference to economy it would make a real improvement to driver enjoyment if sportier models were available without feel sapping EPS.

I’ve a real hankering for a good 80’s/90’s/00’s hot hatch to preserve and enjoy thus the reason why this subject was in my mind.

Need a visit down south to source one though as they’re all rusted to oblivion up here.

Edited by SLO76 on 10/07/2019 at 19:55

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 20:34
Too much power to be fun - badbusdriver

I’ve a real hankering for a good 80’s/90’s/00’s hot hatch to preserve and enjoy thus the reason why this subject was in my mind.

I think you'd probably need to forget about an 80's hot hatch, have you seen the prices good ones go for these days?!. 1.6 205GTI's can go for £10k, with 1.9's at £15-20k. There is actually a 5700 mile 1.9 on Ebay right now with an asking price of £44995!,

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FOR-SALE-Peugeot-205-GTI-1-9-19...Y

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 21:22
Too much power to be fun - BBBB

The need for power with the all important badges & 'my car is the fast model' bits added is much about ego & one-upmanship. You just look a prat sitting in a hugely powerful expensive car in the same traffic jam as everybody else. Much as you might fantasise otherwise it will be rare that you and/or your car is being admired as you're just another obstruction in the way of others trying to complete their journey & for most a car is merely a workaday appliance like a washing machine.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 21:31
Too much power to be fun - gordonbennet

Thankfully i dare say most of us here couldn't give a tuppeny one what anyone else thinks of our car choices, you only get one life so if part of your enjoyment is a Caterham Mustang Hot Hatch or Landcruiser :-), so what?, so long as it's your money and you can afford it, i say do it.

There are no pockets in shrouds.

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Wed 10 Jul 2019 21:35
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“The need for power with the all important badges & 'my car is the fast model' bits added is much about ego & one-upmanship.“

Today I’d agree but in the past no I wouldn’t. Having a GTi was for many about one-upmanship but for others (myself included) it was about the drive. I’ve never cared about image (I drive an old Toyota) but I do enjoy the feel of a nimble lightweight and simple sports hatch or two seater on a B road blast and up here in the West of Scotland there’s plenty of empty B roads to explore. No need for huge power or cost it detracts from the pleasure for me.

I wish I’d bought that 106 GTi I was offered a while back...

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Thu 11 Jul 2019 14:13
Too much power to be fun - expat
I do enjoy the feel of a nimble lightweight and simple sports hatch or two seater on a B road blast and up here in the West of Scotland there’s plenty of empty B roads to explore. No need for huge power or cost it detracts from the pleasure for me. I wish I’d bought that 106 GTi I was offered a while back...

Perhaps you could talk Skidpan into selling you his Caterham ;-)

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Thu 11 Jul 2019 18:31
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
“Perhaps you could talk Skidpan into selling you his Caterham ;-)”

For a very low price eh Skidpan? Mates rates?

Edited by SLO76 on 11/07/2019 at 18:31

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Sun 14 Jul 2019 12:23
Too much power to be fun - groaver

A GT86 would save you getting wet in Ayrshire, SLO76. ;)

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Sun 14 Jul 2019 19:31
Too much power to be fun - SLO76

A GT86 would save you getting wet in Ayrshire, SLO76. ;)

No idea what you mean, it never rains in Scotland.
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Sun 14 Jul 2019 20:10
Too much power to be fun - groaver

No idea what you mean, it never rains in Scotland.

Not for the last two days anyway.... ;-p

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Sun 14 Jul 2019 22:46
Too much power to be fun - SLO76

No idea what you mean, it never rains in Scotland.

Not for the last two days anyway.... ;-p

Currently in Alton Towers. It’s not raining here but blimey the beer is dear.
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Sun 14 Jul 2019 23:09
Too much power to be fun - SLO76
Further to my original post. What is the most surprising hot(ish) hatch/saloon or two seater you’ve ever driven? I’ve often found the best performance model in a range isn’t always the most powerful or costly. In fact I’ve been bitterly disappointed by some costly models I’ve driven in the past for the first time. Mitsubishi 3000GT, Mitsubishi Starion, Ford Sapphire Cosworth, Fiesta RS Turbo, Escort RS turbo, Renault 5 turbo and most Alfa Romeo’s are just a few that spring to mind. All were nowhere near as enjoyable as the image they carry. Fast, yes. But somehow they just didn’t seem quite correctly composed.

The Peugeot 205 XS was a gem, the Rover Metro GTa 1.4 was a belter and better than the GTi, the Cavalier SRi 130 quicker in most situations than the GSi 16v, the Fiat Tipo 1.8 twin cam was a rare pleasure. The Ford Mondeo Mk I 1.8 LX was better than any other version above it, the most basic 1600 Mk I Mazda MX5 was a far sweeter car than the more powerful versions that followed while the Mk I Ford Focus with the 115PS 1.8 TDCi motor was quicker and more relaxed point to point than even the top ST 170.

Volvo’s of old were always better made and more robust in less costly 4cyl form, the 940 would outlast a 960 and the 850 2.5 was a sweet thing that the motoring press rated above the much loved BMW E34 at its launch.

I love finding a car that simply feels right despite being lower down the class scale. It feels like you’ve beaten the system. A wee rare win.
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Tue 23 Jul 2019 11:29
Too much power to be fun - ONMBDM

It stands to reason buddy!

Try having a go on an old 1980s two-stroke Suzuki GT that's about to fall apart, it'll be the most fun of your life!

Slip into a nice Lotus or similar, the comfort makes you feel far to safe to enjoy! ;)

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