VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Tue 8 Aug 2017 12:17

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

HI,

I purchased a 2011 petrol VW Eos for £8,300, with 49,000 miles from an independent used car dealer, and exported it from England.

The bonnet paint started to peel on the first week. I got a small contribution towards repair from the dealer towards refinsihing the surface of the bonnet locally. It also seems that there was WD-40 or detailing spray concealing many scratches elsewhere - they appeared when i washed the car.

Then the side of the car started to peel after around 7 weeks.

I now have a report from VW. It says that the car is peeling on the side due to inappropraite and badly executed paintless dent repair. This would be very expensive to fix properly because the unfortunate location of the damage means many surrounding panels must be blended.

The bonnet is also not up to VW specs on exterior or interior surfaces. It is a genuine VW panel but does not have factory treatments like cavity wax. This invalidates the VW 12-year anti corrosion warranty that the car would normally have.

The cost to get both peeling areas up to VW specs and reinstate the 12-year anti corrosion warranty is around £1500. I can get it done by an independent, but will not reinstate warranty I belived car had, for about £800. The concealed scratches will cost £600.

Basically this is a car without a VW warranty and damage costing £2,000 to restore to factory specs, that is worth around £6,500 with the damage, passed off as a clean car worth £8,300 with no damage (with latent defects introduced by shortcut repairs).

The dealer wants me to reject the car so he can bill me for any damage that he doesn't accept.

If i take a case in small claims court, do I stand a realistic chance of getting the VW or non-VW repair costs as compensation? This used car still functions as a car etc.

All opinions greatfully received. Interested in hearing from people with similar value/age car in similar situation who went to court, especially if it didn't go in your favour.

Edited by GuyinCar on 08/08/2017 at 12:32

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 12:39

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

You bought a used VW. How long ago ? From a VW dealer, or an independent garage ?

You exported it. Where to ?

Basically, you bought a 6 year old used car. Unless you get an annual inspection (paid for at your expense) at a VW dealership, then the 12 year anti-corrosion warranty wouldn't be valid anyway.

The Consumer Rights Act talks about rejection, yes. But the practicalities of it are about 'reasonable expectations' - is it 'reasonable' for you to expect perfection from a 6 year old car ?

Finally, just bear in mind that of course VW will say it needs £XXX spending on it. It's in their interests to bump up costs as much as possible.

Unless the advert for the car specifically said "Anti-corrosion warranty still in place due to annual inspections by a VW dealer " (or implied as such, or you asked and were told as such) then I don't think you can 'reasonably expect' the car to be put back to that level of condition - or 'factory spec', as you put it. It is 6 years old.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 12:51

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - skidpan

VAG do not require annual inspection to keep the rust warranty. Kia do.

A repair carried out by a non-VAG approved garage to non-VAG standards will end the warranty but it will only be on the parts of the car affected by the repair.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 13:11

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

HI,

I only bought the car 2.5 months ago.

I live cross-border, exported it to the Irish Republic but the lower-priced repairs are priced in Sterling from a shop based in Belfast, UK. I can always drive cross-border easily.

The car was advertised as impecably maintained and has VAG history. However, I do not have a copy of the advert where they said "Impeccably maintained".

Would I stand any chance of

(i) Getting the cheaper repairs done (priced in Belfast,UK) ?

(ii) Getting the VW complaint repairs done (priced in Irish Republic)?

(iii) Getting the concealed scratches done ?

Does passing off a damaged car as being worth more through shoddy repairs that introduce latent defects, not count for something on a £8,300 used car?

Thanks

Edited by GuyinCar on 08/08/2017 at 13:12

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 13:43

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

I just struggle to see how you could claim that the corrosion-proofing has been compromised, unless you've got corrosion. Bear in mind that it is not a RUST warranty, but a through-corrosion warranty - a panel has to have rusted through (i.e. holes in it) to actually qualify for a claim anyway.

Under the CRA (which you'd have to use in a courtroom) you must give the supplying garage an opportunity to rectify the faults. Only if they refuse could you then reject the car - at which point the garage would be allowed to make a 'reasonable deduction' from the refund for the use you've had of the car.

Do note that there is NO right to unilaterally just get the work done at another garage, and then expect the selling garage to foot the bill, or even to take them to court for that bill to be paid. The CRA deals with rejection and repair by the supplying party, nobody else.

If they refused your rejection, then your next step would be court, yes. Either to force the rjection and refund, or to compensate you for additional costs. I don't pretend to know the procedure for you - issuing proceedings in one country against a business in another - so if it comes to that then you'd undoubtedly need specialist legal advice in the Irish Republic - the sort you will have to pay for.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 14:01

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

Well, I am claiming that the VW anti-corrosion warranty has been compromised because unapproved work introduced paint delamination.

Filing a small claim track with an irish address in the uk is not a problem, i just can't do it online. Paper application is same as someone at a distance in Portsmouth or London.

...but leave all that aside for the moment,

Lets say I am Joe Bloggs from Lewisham....

I have recently offered to return the car to them for repair, despite the distance.

They have denied resposponsibility for the latent peeling paint, insisting that I should reject the car now and pay the price. I have indicated I am not interested in that offer as it is too costly to me.

In this case, could I sue for the cost of getting the repair done either (i) cheaply in Belfast UK or (ii) to VW specs at higher cost?

Edit. Of course I can sue, but would either of these have a chance of suceeding?

Thanks

Edited by GuyinCar on 08/08/2017 at 14:13

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 14:49

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - SLO76

I sympathise greatly with you however the reality is you bought a 6yr old car on from a non-franchised used dealer who has clearly carried out a cheap paint job on the car. The bulk of auction bought stock like this comes with faults and paintwork required. Smaller dealers buy it and repair it on the cheap which always deteriorates quickly.

I don't see a court granting you much recompense if at all here as the car is mechanically fine. The paintwork would have been very visible to anyone with a trained eye and you should have had someone with a bit of motoring knowledge look it over before buying.

You bought cheap instead of buying a good example from a VW dealer and this is the unfortunate downside. This car is between £1,000 and £2,000 cheaper (not cheap enough) than others of similar age at reputable dealers. So it could be said it was cheap because of the poor paintwork. Auto Trader:

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20170727776...2

Seek legal advice and best wishes but at we had this regularly at a dealer I once worked for where he used a cheap bodyshop for sub £5k cars and not one customer won any refund. I left soon after he started using this sub standard bodyshop.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 15:07

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

Thing is, you are linking to a car with less than 1/2 the mileage. It was nearly the only car on the UK market this summer with the 90kW 1.4, the higher output direct injection 1.4 engines have problems with stretching timing chains and carbonising the back of the valves during valve overlap - there being no flow of fuel to clean them.

The paintwork was not visibly defective. For example, there is a document from toyota about PDR that warns it can lead to paint deamination that is not immediately apparant. The bonnet clear was probably sprayed with the basecoat too dry - again I can't see that until it peels.

I cannot see the peeling paint until it actually peels, both in the case of the bonnet and the side panel. Same for the concealed scratches.

Is there nobody on the forum who suceeded in pursuing peeling paint on a used car in the £5-10k range?

Edited by GuyinCar on 08/08/2017 at 15:08

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 15:24

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RT

Courts don't like dealing with futures - unless an event is certain, it may not happen at all so no case to answer.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 15:32

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

I Don't understand what you mean by "futures". It peeled in the first week and then again elsewhere within the first two months. The latent defects have emerged.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 15:28

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

Your problem is, it is a used car - 6 years old

You cannot expect the bodywork to be perfect - yet you seem to be expecting that.

Peeling paint is not necessarily a 'fault' with a 6 year old car. It does not prevent the proper operation of the car. It is (again, this word crops up a lot) 'reasonable' to expect a 6 year old car to have had minor paint repairs, and it would be 'reasonable' for those repairs to be done slightly cheaper than at full VW labour rates.

You want a brand new car, with perfect paint, then you go and pay brand new car prices.

You've bought a car for one-third of it's original price and at 6 years old. I think you need to be a bit more realistic with your expectations.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 17:47

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - SLO76

"The paintwork was not visibly defective. For example, there is a document from toyota about PDR that warns it can lead to paint deamination that is not immediately apparant. The bonnet clear was probably sprayed with the basecoat too dry - again I can't see that until it peels.

I cannot see the peeling paint until it actually peels, both in the case of the bonnet and the side panel. Same for the concealed scratches."

Any non-insurance approved respray would be apparent to anyone with experience. It's always visible and for it to be of such poor quality that it's flaking off it would have been very obvious I'm sure.

You've bought a car in poor condition bodily which I'm sure the dealers defence will be that you could see what you were buying. I'm not saying this is right, I'm not saying the car was cheap enough for the standard of the paint but I'm thinking along the lines of how it would be viewed legally.

I remember one case vividly on a Montego Estate (shows how long ago this was) where our buyer had bought it with crusty door bottoms and arches, had it cheaply painted and the person who bought it (he must've been blind as it was terrible, with runs everywhere) tried to sue because it rusted through within 6mths. He got nowhere. I don't remember the detail of the case however as I wasn't the one who sold it, in fact I gave tat like this a wide berth.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 19:01

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

But Paintless Dent Removal does not involve a respray - it just causes the factory paint - following a delay - to come away from the metal.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 20:26

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - SLO76

But Paintless Dent Removal does not involve a respray - it just causes the factory paint - following a delay - to come away from the metal.

We used debt removal services like this regularly, I still do occasionally without ever having any issues. I suspect your car has seen cheap paint, perhaps the combination of poor quality previous paint repair and later debt removal has caused it.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 20:28

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - Simon

If the garage want you to reject the car then why don't you just do this? I can't see that you will in a small claims court if the guy has offered to give you your money back.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 22:09

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

He will want to charge me for the defects as if I caused them, plus other charges for the use of the vehicle. It is a b.s. offer.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 22:40

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

Various of us have given our opinions on this matter. We've got varying degrees of experience and knowledge, some of us know the law moderately well, some know it very well.

I ran this past a friend of mine who is a magistrate (she's a runner like me, and a few of us were out on a 6 miler this evening, so plenty of time to chat). Her opinion was very much that 'it depends' on how bad the paintwork really is. But if the car isn't rusting, then she reckons you'd probably get nowhere.

Unfortunately, I think you've come on here with a preconceived idea - you are right, and the horrible big bad trader is in the wrong. When you get told that it doesn't look that way, it isn't something you want to hear, so you ignore it.

Selective deafness is not just found in children.

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Tue 8 Aug 2017 23:24

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RT

He will want to charge me for the defects as if I caused them, plus other charges for the use of the vehicle. It is a b.s. offer.

Of course you'll have a deduction for your use of the car - totally unreasonable to expect otherwise.

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 10:26

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - skidpan

But Paintless Dent Removal does not involve a respray - it just causes the factory paint - following a delay - to come away from the metal.

Most of the used cars on a forecourt today will have had Paintless Dent Remval, its a fact of life. We have had a few repairs done like this as did my dad. On of the cars was kept to almost 8 years old and never had an issue.

But is your paint peeling off and leaving the car with exposed bare metal as suggested in your comment above or do you have a layer of paint and lacquer peeling off indicating poor prep before a respray.

Edited by skidpan on 09/08/2017 at 10:31

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 12:45

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - Bromptonaut

OP may also face an issue with plan to issue small claim proceedings in 'UK'.

Money Claim on Line and the analogous paper processes are not UK or even Great Britain; the County Court jurisdiction is England and Wales. Seperate processes apply in Scotland and in Northern Ireland.

Cannot see an English County Court being willing to issue a claim where claimant is in Republic of Ireland and defendant in Northern Ireland. Different if claimant is in RoI/NI/Scotland and defendant in E&W.

In dim distant past claimants out of jurisdiction had to give security for costs but I think that rule was revoked in eighties.

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 14:54

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

Defendent is in Manchester.

I just went to NI to get lower price in Sterling for work.

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 15:23

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

No matter what people on here are saying, you seem to think you are in the right, and the trader is in the wrong, and you will win.

You didn't want advice. You wanted confirmation. But you haven't got that, you'e instead got a load of people saying that they doubt you'd win, that it isn't as clear-cut as you seem to think.

But you don't want to hear that, so you're not listening to it.

So get on with issuing proceedings, if you're so convinced that you're in the right.

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 18:42

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

I am just answering questions that people ask.

I saw your earlier post.

Possibly you misunderstand that I am not looking to claim against the VW 12 year anti corrosion warranty, but it is a fact that what they did to the car invalidated that warranty.

Yes there is a spec of rust - inside the bonnet. As for the PDR at the side of the car, the paint has come away from the panel but is still attached to the car. In otherwords, intact clear, bubbling base coat, rust which you can't directly see other than it obviously occupies the space between paint and panel, then the metal. However, as I am not trying to claim against the invalidated VW anti-corrosion warranty, is rust or no-rust that important?

It is the latent nature of the defects that they introduced that is annoying.

Edited by GuyinCar on 09/08/2017 at 18:46

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 18:48

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - GuyinCar

Edited by GuyinCar on 09/08/2017 at 18:49

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Wed 9 Aug 2017 19:00

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - RobJP

As another post has said, a court is not going to look sympathetically on a 'future maybe' - you must SHOW that you have suffered a quantifiable loss to make a claim.

Something being 'annoying' is certainly not sufficient, and would get you laughed out of court in short order.

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Thu 10 Aug 2017 01:03

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - TedCrilly

Here is a notion.

A bit radical maybe but let's run with it

Why don't you.........talk with a solicitor.

Yes thats right, a solicitor

Face to face, up close and personal. A real bona fide solicitor. Someone who does know the law and has real experience in this sort of thing.

Who knows, you might actually gain something from it.

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Thu 10 Aug 2017 10:32

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - pd

Here is a notion.

A bit radical maybe but let's run with it

Why don't you.........talk with a solicitor.

Yes thats right, a solicitor

They'll find it hard to find one who specilaises in this sort of stuff and works for buyers. Most of the specialist motor trade dispute law firms only work for dealers (because that is where the money is).

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Thu 10 Aug 2017 11:05

VW Eos 2011 - Likely Small Claim outcome? - TedCrilly

Nah.

Based on what is being said this could develop some technical aspects but what I see is a plain old consumer dispute between the buyer/seller. Given the time element and questions over shoddy repairs VW won't entertain it. Why should they be liable for and pay for the way in which someone else has repaired the paintwork to a poor standard. If the OP wanted to go after them he would have to provide something that casts doubt on the results of their inspection. Easy? Hard?......what do you think?

The only option I see is that all this goes back to the dealer and recompense sought, but that is easier said than done.

Again.....that is all just my unprofessional opinion, just like everyone elses.

Edited by TedCrilly on 10/08/2017 at 11:30

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