BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - LikeFastCars

(don't want to throw too many Qs into my other thread hence this if that's ok!)

I've an Audi TT DSG. Incredible car, love it to bits. The DSG works like a dream.

The only thing that bothers me is that with all my manual cars I could have the clutch on the edge of biting when pulling off lights or into/out of a junction and the car would leap.

With my DSG - great as it is at other times - it seems to take half a second or so to roll into being active then it starts revving. This is sooo annoying as it detracts frm having a nippy car. Sure it's great once it has started moving, but from a standstill it disappoints. I don't ant to use launch control either because it'll wheelspin and I'll probably damage somethign using it constantly.

So does anyone know if BMW's DCT does the same annoying thing or can it jump off the line just as well as a manual can?

I know it's quicker 0-60 technically but I suspect that's due more to quick gear changes than jumping off the line quicker - I suspect it's slower at that end.

I've also been looking at the Jaguar XKR and I understand although that's auto it jumps off like a manual (according to answers on another thread) so I believe it is possible for a non-manual to do this. Is that right?

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - RobJP

I don't know about the M3 gearbox, if it's the same ZF 8 speed unit as in the rest of the 3 range, but if it's anything like the one on the loaner 340i I drove a few weeks ago, then hang on tight. It was incredibly responsive in Sports mode, whilst being perfectly docile if pootling around.

By the way, I hate autos, so if I reckon it's good, then it's real praise !

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - LikeFastCars

That's interesting.. so you mean the car leaps forward the MOMENT you want it to rather a slight (presumably ECU) delay?

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - RobJP

It was pretty instantaneous, without being too twitchy.

Just felt really well set up.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - Avant

The trouble with any auto is that when you start from rest you're starting from idling speed - usually under 1,000 rpm.. When you set off in a manual, you use a bit of acceleration as you release the clutch - anywhere between 1,000 and 1,500 rpm.

So there will always be a little hesitation for that reason - how much depends on the characteristics of each engine. Turbodiesels I suspect have more lag than average: six-cylinder petrol BMWs very little, even the autos.

I'm no mechanic, but I'd have thought that a dual-clutch gearbox - whatever its other failings and the question-marks over its longevity - would be better in this particular respect than a torque-converter auto.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - glidermania

BMW DCT's (dual clutch) autos have had 'launch control' since at least 2011 as far as I know. However, if you want to wreck your auto box, use it regularly!

Thing with an auto and if not wanting to use the LC (or the car prevents you using it twice within a certain distance) is, increase the engine revs while holding the car on the brake. Course if you do this too often you'll wear the torque converter out.

Best to lose the boy racer impetus.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - badbusdriver

The trouble with any auto is that when you start from rest you're starting from idling speed - usually under 1,000 rpm.. When you set off in a manual, you use a bit of acceleration as you release the clutch - anywhere between 1,000 and 1,500 rpm.

So there will always be a little hesitation for that reason - how much depends on the characteristics of each engine. Turbodiesels I suspect have more lag than average: six-cylinder petrol BMWs very little, even the autos.

I'm no mechanic, but I'd have thought that a dual-clutch gearbox - whatever its other failings and the question-marks over its longevity - would be better in this particular respect than a torque-converter auto.

I my experience (as someone who has driven many automatic cars over the years with power outputs ranging from under 50bhp to more than 350bhp), in an automatic car, unless you are beside a particularly determined foe, you will inevitably get away from the lights quicker than an equivalent manual car.

My wife currently has a hyundai i30 turbo diesel automatic, it only has 108bhp, but the way it leaps away from traffic lights or across roundabouts, you would think it has twice that!. And while i may not often be in a position to do this, any time i have been (for whatever reason), i have always come out in front, often when up against cars which, in theory, should utterly destroy the hyundai!.

I think it may be due to the fact that there are so many drivers on the road, who, to be honest, dont really know what they are doing. They buy a manual gearbox, because whatever car magazine they read tells them that is best and that is what a 'proper driver' would choose. But you need skill to extract the maximum acceleration from a manual gearbox, and (in my experience) most drivers dont, and clearly cant be bothered to learn. Whereas in an automatic, you just floor the throttle!.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - LikeFastCars

Hmm, it's really interesting you say that.

When I first started reading I thought you'd made a typo then I thougth you were mistaken... then I remembered trying my girlfriend's (now my wife's) 'rubbish' Citroen VTR which had an awful automatic system that took an age to shift gear btu now thinking back on it I remember how amazingly quick it seemed to jump off the line!

I'm not sure though if it had this delay I'm worried about that the TT has. But it certainly flew. I suspect if it was to race against my TT (annoyingly we never tried it) it's jump ahead for the firs ttwo car lengths before the TT rinses it.

But that's my worry with the TT - fast as it may be and althoguh it will eventually catch up, you need that instant burst for safely usign junctions/roundabouts/beating someone at the lights, which it just doesn't have. by teh time it's 3-4 car lengths and it's overtaken it's pointless.

So yeah maybe I'm wrong to think all autos are slow off the line and maybe it's a paritcular issue with VAG DGS boxes?

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - RobJP

HJ has regularly reported that there is an 'issue' with some of the VAG DSG gearboxes. Basically, the fuelling is restricted when at rest, and the command to the fuelling systems is sent by the brake pedal switch. When that is released, there can be a delay in the electronics responding and restoring normal fuelling levels.

At least, I think that was it - or the jist of it, anyway.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - LikeFastCars

Ah.. HJ is a top man. That definitely makes sense with the way it responds!

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - Avant

Interesting - thanks. So DSG isn't any quicker off the mark than a torque-converter auto. As one who drives a TC auto, I'm happy to have been wrong about that.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - gordonbennet

Interesting - thanks. So DSG isn't any quicker off the mark than a torque-converter auto. As one who drives a TC auto, I'm happy to have been wrong about that.

I would have said anything with an automated clutch can be just as fast away as a torque converter auto (assuming they both have the same engine in the same state of tune), but the automated clutch vehicle requires different techniques to get the best from them.

You can't just assume it will be instant like a TC, so you have to be driving a second or so ahead of when you want power at junctions and give the vehicle notice of your intent, this applies whether moving or at standing starts, if you have a lorry with a typical half fit for purpose (but most proving astonishingly reliable) automated manual box you eventually learn to drive about 3 to 5 seconds ahead (and take manual control of the box) or you end up blowing a brain gasket out of sheer frustration at the incompetence and utter failure of the thing to maintain progress left to itself.

OP, you seem to want to go in for lots of full power take offs, by all means enjoy it but be under no illusions it will be hard on the vehicle and something will eventually give, it always does, it might be a relatively cheap half shaft, it might be a slightly more expensive propshaft, or it could be clutches or entire gears ripped from a shaft inside a gearbox costing many thousands of pounds.

What's launch control when it's home by the way.

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - Avant

"What's launch control when it's at home by the way?"

The umpire in the Boat Race. :)

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - badbusdriver

Launch control is essentially a way for normal everyday drivers to look like hero's in the 'traffic light grand prix'!. Electronics take care of optimising revs/power/traction in order so that the car in question launches itself away absolutely as fast as possible. Exactly how each system works may vary, im not sure, but the ones i have read about or seen on programs like top gear go something like this, you engage the system, put your foot on the brake, dial up a certain amount of revs, and when you are ready to go, release the brakes.

However, i have also read that using the system on a regular basis will not do your car any good at all!

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - gordonbennet

Thanks BBD, not something i've come across, nor likely to as i don't want cars modern enough to have such devices.

Works the opposite way to what i would have thought, i would have expected it to limit the power and revs to prevent damage, so in other words the car is in default nanny knows best mode all the time and you have to physically switch the controls off.

I assumed the common sense gene and the preventing the draining of the wallet modes to kick in.

Is this LC restricted to 4x4's?, i could imagine a Nissan Skyline or Subaru WRX needing it, where the incompetent could rip entire drive lines out by the roots, but most 2WD cars would surely wheelspin under such power suddenly applied, which acts as the drive train safety valve.

Dunno about a Boat Race umpire Avant, no one's going to award me any prizes for my boat.

Edited by gordonbennet on 13/04/2017 at 09:32

BMW M3 - DCT v DSG v Manual - SLO76
:-)