A policy I adopt is to start monitoring the middle and outer lanes for gaps as I pass the off slip. If it appears a vehicle joining the Mway may come too close, I can then move across. If it is really busy, I tend to move into the middle lane at the earliest safe opportunity after the off-slip (as to all intents and purposes I am "overtaking" traffic joining the Mway), returning to the left lane once safe to do so.
From an insurance and police point of view, I doubt you would have much luck with the argument that the joining motorist was responsible. Chances are that you have full sight of them but they only have limited sight of you, putting the onus for avoiding action on you.
Always safest to assume that no other motorist can see you and drive accordingly. It's no comfort to lie in a hospital bed, dealing with letters from the insurers that have written off your pride and joy, knowing you were "in the right".
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I can't believe the answers I'm seeing here.
As mentioned, it is a GIVE WAY.
If the joining vehicle cannot safely join the motorway, it should wait until it can, even if that means coming to a stop. A question relating to this is frequently seen on the online theory tests found on the internet.
A slip road is basically an angled T junction (although with no right turn).
I do appreciate that it's not much fun knowing you were in the right whilst lying in a hospital bed, but at the same time, you were "in the right"!
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Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly Wally, the problem is that most accidents involve someone in the wrong and someone in the right. If the person "in the right" sees the other and fails to take appropriate action, they too are in the wrong.
Blimey, if we all drove on the basis that we were in the right so didn't need to take avoiding action, the roads would be jammed with smashed cars.
Taking your comments one step further, what would you do if a motorist pulled out of a side road into your path? Would you take avoiding action or would you smack into them without any attempt to avoid it?
Bringing the analogy closer to the slip-road scenario, you see a motorist about to exit a side road and you don't think they've seen you. What do you do then?
Anyway, I thought you had an Audi, the thinking
:o)
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Ooops.....Anyway, I thought you had an Audi, the thinking man's BMW..... :o)
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I nearly had a similar incindet, except I was the one who was "in the wrong". I was joining a virtually empty dual carriageway (National Speed Limit) from the slip road, and I was up to about 50 mph when a car in the inside lane didn't move over but flew up towards me at 70+. They didn't move over despite the fact that I was indicating well in advance of joining and there was *nobody* else on the road.
I know they had no requirement to move over legally, but when they had every opportunity and it wouldn't have caused a problem for them, I thought it was a bit bad coming up so quickly in the left hand lane, as it was I saw them just in time to swerve back into the slip road and onto the rumble strip, then thank god they budged over a little and I could mange to get in onto the road. I know that technically it was my fault, I was at a giveway, but when the road was empty, you don't expect someone to deliberately try and force you off the road by refusing to move into a totally empty lane. and like I've said, he must have been moving quickly 'cos he caught me up very rapidly.
Blue
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Blue, a classic example of what I was describing.
There's a section of dual carriageway near here which runs through the edges of the New Forest and through farm and forestry land for about 6 miles before there is a junction (Blackwater on the Bournemouth Spur Road for those that know it). The junction is just over a rise and you only get about 10 seconds warning at 70. The onslip is VERY short, preceded by a very tight 180 degree run-in and visibility is hindered by gorse growing on the edges of the slip.
Without fail there is an accident on this stretch every rush hour, caused by motorists failing to move out into the outside lane or by someone on the slip accelerating into the back of a stationary vehicle at the end of the slip. Despite this, nobody seems to modify their behaviour and you will see the same stoney-faced individuals hammering along the inside lane at 80mph with "They have to give way, not me" written all over them. Trouble is, when "they" do give way, they get shunted into the traffic by the bloke behind who thinks they shouldn't have stopped.....
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All this advance observation stuff is all very well but how do you cope with the nutter in a BMW joining the motorway at ( I kid you not) 125 mph?
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Not a nice one Godfrey.
As previoulsy mentioned, you should always be aware of an escape route. Assuming I have already moved out to the middle lane, my personal reaction would be to (a) slow and drop back into the inner lane, giving said nutter a route out to "his" lane on the right, (b) stay in same lane if inner lane not clear and again, drop back as rapidly as is safe to do or (c) move into the outside lane for the same reason (i.e. giving the Beemer a safe corridor). I know it's frustrating, but it's their funeral, not yours.
The decision on which way to go is going to be based on your continued observation of the available space in each lane. I can't stress enough that motorway on-slips are amongst the most dangerous places on UK roads, hence most accidents being at or immediately past them.
I have to hold my hand up to feelings of sheer rage and frustration when I see people drive like this and I have been known to do the indefensible and "block" those determined to mimic a low-flying tomahawk, but since my daughter was born 3and a half years ago, I grew up in one heck of a hurry. I want to see her grow up and that is always in the back of my mind if the red mist descends when I'm on the road.
I'm not an IAM driver, just have many 100s of 1000s if accident free miles (and a fair few track days) under my belt so folks, feel free to correct me on this one.
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I can't stress enough that motorway on-slips are amongst the most dangerous places on UK roads, hence most accidents being at or immediately past them.
???? Where are the figures to prove that?
As far as I was aware, mile-for-mile motorways are several times safer places to drive than any other type of road.
It's just that because of the higher speeds involved, and the less stimulating environment, minor errors tend to develop much more quickly into major situations and any impacts tend to be a lot harder.
What really worries me is that we have all of these motorists who scrape through a driving test, rarely drive anywhere other than to and from work or the shops, but think they are "good" drivers, being let loose on fast-flowing, busy motorways at all...
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DTD: I don\'t know for sure - no figures - but my prejudice is that problem drivers on motorways are the \'expert\' drivers who have excellent car control honed over many years, but take unnecessary risks and lack patience. I guess a newby coming across one of these could easily contribute to a crash due to being intimidated and lacking experience. (I speak from past experience.)
Just occurred to me that it has become popular in job interviews to do those vile psychometric personality tests. I wonder if these are any good at predicting driving style and hence degree of insurance risk?
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Just occurred to me that it has become popular in job interviews to do those vile psychometric personality tests. I wonder if these are any good at predicting driving style and hence degree of insurance risk?
Good question! Seeing as everyone has their own idea of what makes a "good" driver, I would imagine it would be quite hard to interpret those test results impartially though. Hmmm. You've got me thinking now!
This motorway thread and the other current one have both really got me on my high horse today, must be something to do with being off ill!
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Leif - Try this:
www.roadragetest.co.uk/
It was the closest I could find!
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Hmm, I don't think I like my results on that, DTD!
HF
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Actually HF, I reckon that deserves a thread all of its own! So i'll start one here:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=11...2
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Hi DTD.
I agree that mile for mile our motorways are very safe indeed when compared to pretty much any other class of road. My comment is based on personal observation and conversations with traffic officers who cover some of the South's motorways. They pointed out pretty much what you just put, which is that the higher speeds involved tend to exacerbate minor errors.
The problem specifically with onslips is the alarming disparity in traffic speeds. A classic is the M3 southbound /M27 Westbound interchange, where commuter traffic from London/Reading/Basingstoke has hammered down the congested M3 at 90+ and comes screaming along into local traffic doing 55 in the inside lane. What inevitably happens is that the M3 traffic heads straight out onto the outside lane, still doing 90+, whipping across 3 lanes of slower moving traffic, with disasterous consequences on most days.
On the other side of the coin you have onslips like the one at Winchester north, where urban traffic joins the same London commuter traffic, only this time you have artics doing 56, cars doing 80 and cars doing 90+ in the respective lanes, with a steady stream of local traffic desperately trying to merge, not always with too much success.
Onslips only make up a minute proportion of our motorways but account for by far the largest number of motorway accidents, hence my comment.
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ND: The slip road at - I think - Winchester South on the M3 is a nightmare. Here a 2 lane motorway becomes 3 lanes. High speed cars scream down the slip road all bunched up and then fight to get into lane 3. I'd forgotten how manic these "I've got to get to 100 mph in lane 3" people can get.
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All in all a pretty nasty piece of motorway, isn't it!
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Yup. They could improve the design by making the transition from 2 to 3 lanes a decent way before the slip road. Course it might not be as easy as that!
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Leif, do you remember how it was before they built that section up to two lanes? The Hockley traffic lights and Spitfire bridge? Believe me, what we have today is an improvement.
I think they went as far as they could with the junctions/lanes taking into account the environmental impact on the south downs and a nearby SSI. It was all pre-swampy, but it still got a lot of punishment in the press.
It's still a pig of a junction, mind.
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I only took and passed my test 5 years ago despite age so I don't remember. Did I really suggest they should have removed even more of a SSI? I have been there recording rare fungi on numerous occasions.
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County and Highways have been reviewing this junction's layout for sometime to try and alleviate some of the tailbacks into the city and trailing back on the A34 southbound. One consideration IIRC was to try and figure out a way of letting the A34 flow directly onto the M3.
Two junctions that people join motorways particularly slowly are those on the M3 either side of what's left of Twyford Down. People seem to think they have a preordained right to join the motorway at 35mph no matter what the conditions!
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I seem to recall that there is a motorway sliproad that joins the motorway in the outside lane. I think it may be the M5 somewhere. Anyone got any more details, possibly a link to a photo or something?
clariman
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I seem to recall that there is a motorway sliproad that joins the motorway in the outside lane.
M60, Bredbury junction. Something like Jct24 - it'll be obvious from Multimap but I haven't the time to check at the moment.
You join as an extra lane and the inside lane ends a few hundred yards afterwards. It's not usually a problem until you get the idiots who potter down the (much longer than usual) sliproad at 35, or the drivers already on the motorway who'd rather undertake you than give you chance to pull in and let them past.
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The problem was I was already in the inner lane with no escape route due to traffic already overtaking me. Adding to the problem I had no time to plan for his antics as due to the nature of the slip road giving a limited view of joining traffic.
Now the design of the slip road was perfectly safe for traffic joing at 70 mph but this guy was doing 125 mph and he was going to join the motorway at that speed no matter what (absolutely typical of some BMW drivers - dons nomex suit and ducks for cover ). All I could do was brake hard and pray that the guy behind me was awake
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National speed limit for a slip road is not 50, you car drivers need to get that out of your heads, how can it be 50 when the good book tells you ti use it to get up to teh same speed as vehicles already on the carriageway travelling at 65 +
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Motorway slip road have the posted limit at the start of the slip road the same as the motorway itself, usually 70.
I was taught to accelerate up to 60 in the first half of the slip road, then adjust my speed to the traffic - up to 70 if it's all cars doing that or down to 55 if it's all LGVs on their limiters.
But at the end of the slip road you must only change lane across the dotted line into lane 1 if it's safe to do so - it is an effective give way.
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"I do appreciate that it's not much fun knowing you were in the right whilst lying in a hospital bed,"
Or on your tombstone. I didn't see anyone argue that it was Give Way. I did see some sensible advice about approaching a slip road.
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Wally, you don't stop at the "end" of the slip road!If, once you've accelerated you find you can't join the m/way at the appropriate speed, don't brake, you continue along the hard shoulder until it's safe to do so. Trying to get up to m/way speeds from a standing start into heavy traffic is going to cause no end of probs. It's exactly the same for re-joining the m/way from the hard shoulder. The number of clowns I see lurching into lane one at 5mph is amazing, probably something to do with being told so often that driving on the hard shoulder is wrong under any circs.
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The number of clowns I see lurching into lane one at 5mph is amazing,
Nuff said!
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After reading this thread I now realise just how friendly the M57 is. It may be because it's such a short motorway but I'm regularly whizzing up and down this particular motorway and haven't witnessed any of this maniacal lunatic driving (maybe I should add 'so far'). Everything seems to just flow as it should with traffic moving to allow others onto the main carriageway off slip roads.
Even during the recent major roadworks co-operation seemed to be the order of the day and when drivers were unable to move across the lanes they were holding back enough and flashing their lights (I know it's wrong) to show others they were giving way for them. I haven't got very much experience of other maotorways but I find this one quite pleasant to travel along.
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What rubbish, if you have a collision with a vehicle joining the motorway, the vehicle joining will always be given 100 % of the blame, I will enlarge on this when I get to my pc, using phone, it states that YOU MUST MERGE with traffic, that means you must either speed up, slow down or even STOP on the slip road if you CANNOT JOIN THE CARRIAGEWAY WITHOUT FORCING VEHICLES ALREADY ON THE CARRIAFEWAY TO CHANGE SPEED OR DIRECTION. It said exactly that in the old highway code but it has since been re worded for the watered down version you now have. But the onus remains yours to merge with traffic and not not not for traffic to merge with you. As far as planning your entry you should do it not halfway down as was suggested but as soon as you can see the carriageway, and by using the full length of the slip road if need be, I am always amazed how people stop on this slip road when they 300 or so yards left to run.
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Totally agree, you do have the 'right'. That aside, other road users are not so well informed and, for want of a better term, are dimwits! Personally I don't pull over, especially when I am towing as i find that when you do, said dimwit, will accelerate away on the inside lane and leave you dangling in the second lane, trying to get back in!
The issue is either 'as above' or if I brake/ accelerate to let someone in and that causes an incident because they also braked or accelerated, who is to blame, me for ‘second guessing’ their move or them for not knowing what I might do? My point is, if I did what I was doing, ie minding my own driving, speed and position, and so let them work it out (as they should) then all should be OK (except for the dimwits).
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Zombie thread from 14 years ago, but nothing changes.
Joining the A1 southbound yesterday from the A428 there was a car belting down lane 1 (70+ I guessed) so I lifted off to let my car slow so as to get in behind him. No sign of him moving over.
He must have lifted at the same time.. If there was a flash of headlights, I didn't see it. By the time I realised that he wasn't getting any nearer, he had nearly run me out of road, so at the point of no return I put the foot to the floor and away.
There was nothing in lane 2.
I thought I was pretty good at this, I never push in and have never had to stop except when the major road has been very slow and congested. But it can still go wrong.
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Zombie thread from 14 years ago, but nothing changes.
Must be a bit of a record though!!
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