Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - dmc2028372
Afternoon all. I recently purchased a 63 reg audi a4 avant black edition with the 2.0 tdi 177 hp engine. The stated mpg when the car was advertised on the midlands audi's dealer website was 58.9 mpg combined. It became apparent very soon after had the car delivered was no where near this. A 200 mile round trip that was mainly motorway work at very steady pace returned exactly 40 mpg. This is a massive difference to it's stated economy figure and to be quite honest i would probably not bought the car if I new this was going to be possibly it's higher figure.
I can see on your real mpg page that the real mpg average is 42.5. I've had the car 2 weeks. Do I have any basis for compensation based on the fact I feel I was mis-sold the car?
Surely it's not right that the car is sold to me on false figures?
Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - skidpan
Do I have any basis for compensation based on the fact I feel I was mis-sold the car? Surely it's not right that the car is sold to me on false figures?

You have no claim whatsoever against the seller. The official mpg figures are the only ones they can quote by law. If you want to claim against anyone it would have to be the European Parliament who introduced the testing method.

But I must ask what planet have you been on for the past 15 years or so. There have been numerous newspaper artilces about how far the official figures are from reality and What Car Magazine and this website both collate and carry out their own tests which give a more truthful figure.

As examples take mine and the wifes car, mine is a Seat Leon 1.4 TSi, the official combined is 54 mpg and I have averaged a true caclulated 45 mpg for almost 3 years. The wifes car, a Nissan Note 1.2 DIG-S has and official combined figure of 65 mpg and she has averaged 45 mpg for just over 6 months.

Are we upset, of course not. We researched the web and press thouroughly before purchase and these were the types of averages people were getting. But we are also realistic and accept that modern cars with loads of safety kit and other kit weigh the same as a small moon thus use more fuel.

Modern technology cannot change the laws of the universe

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - RT

I agree with the above.

It certainly seems true that the more recent the Euro emissions standards the worse the real mpg figure is, despite the EU figure being better - so a Euro 6 car should be expected to give less real mpg than it's Euro 5 predecessor, assuming like-for-like models.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - daveyjp

On looking at the HJ pieces last week about the real mpg figures all the cars which beat the quoted figures were tested many many years ago.

This suggests manufacturers have become very good at tuning for the tests to meet the ever reducing EU CO2 regs.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - craig-pd130

Look on the bright side - diesel is as cheap today as it was 9 years ago. This time last year it was £1.15 per litre, and two years ago it was £1.37 per litre.

Just enjoy the car. A 1.6 tonne estate with a 177bhp engine is never going to average anywhere near the manufacturer-stated figures, unless you drive everywhere at 56mph.

For reference, my previous Volvo V60 with manual gearbox (equivalent in size, weight and horsepower) averaged a genuine 46.8mpg at the pumps, in the 3 years and 40,000 miles I owned it.

My current V60 with the newer 2.0 diesel engine has averaged a genuine 47.5mpg at the pumps in the 18 months / 18,000 miles I've had it.

I think that's pretty good for the type of driving I do (mostly urban), how I drive it (briskly) and the car's size.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Wukl

Really?

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Cyd

I don't think it'll wash, BUT if you're up for it I think it'd be an interesting exercise to go back and tell the dealer principle that you are going to reject the car on the basis of the fuel economy. I'd be interested to hear what kind of response you get. I agree with you that manufacturers advertise the 'official' figures in a way that strongly implies that's the economy you should expect on the road - even though we all 'know' it isn't

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Avant

I fear that if you do, ou'll be referred toi a taxidermist. As Skidpan says above, the dealer can only quote the official figures, and there will be some small print somewhere saying so.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - RT

I fear that if you do, ou'll be referred toi a taxidermist. As Skidpan says above, the dealer can only quote the official figures, and there will be some small print somewhere saying so.

It was made illegal to "advertise" fuel consumption figures back in the 1970's because of exaggerated claims - there was/is however an obligation to publish the official economy figures which is what we all see.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - kiss (keep it simple)

I think 40mpg for a modern Diesel is a bit on the thirsty side. How did you measure the consumption? 200 miles is probably a bit premature for a new car to test consumption. I used to have regular trips to Cardiff and Bristol in a variety of hire cars, and my results were always remarkably consistent, low to mid 40's in petrol medium size cars such as Astras and Hyundai i30. High 40's to 50 in large Diesels such as Insignia. Round trips of about 300-320 miles, mostly motorway driven sensibly but not super-economy slow. Best figure was 57 in a Kia Venga Diesel.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - gordonbennet

Some great points being made here.

Lorries are just the same, we get new lorries regularly, they have a 5 year life with us then go back, each and every new model has more gadgetry and electronics and driving aids supposed to make them so much more economical than the last one that didn't have quite so much (to go wrong), ''this ones the business'', ''they've sorted the engine out on the new model, this ones superb'' we hear it all, these new ones will do 11 mpg on our work, as if, no they jolly well won't, and we just smile and wait till we've done a few regular trips with them on the long uphill drags that feature on much of our work.

Result being exactly as said above, for all the new technology the simple fact is that fuel has to be burned to shift 44 tons of lorry up hill and around hundreds of junctions, and when after a few weeks we find, lo and behold, the new one is doing if not worse (given euro 6 strangulation) then about the same as the old one was and the one before that..which went better too cos it wasn't stranged with emission stuff so kept in top gear longer...and the one before that, and before you know it you're back in the 90's and the vehicles were still giving around the same fuel economy as today because despite not being as technically efficient they breathed easier, plus other reasons i won't bore you further with.

Cars are much more economical today but only if everything is perfect as on a fuel economy test bed, but when variables come into it you're still back to burning fuel to get up to and maintian speed, and on ever heavier cars with ever fatter tyres, you have to ask yourself is this feasable.

Note well designed hybrids are the ones able to reap better economy when the variables such as traffic and stop start combine, and they always sit on sensible tyres, they take advantage of the conditions that penalise heavily the cars that can be ultimately more economical at a steady cruise if carefully driven.

I think you have to use some common sense when reading these economy figures, if you're standing beside a massive car half filling a showroom and weighing in at near on two tons sat on tyres and wheels that wouldn't look out of place on a lorry, then you have to ask yourself seriously is this car really capable of 60mpg in normal driving.

Should be an interesting conversation at the Audi showroom, i'd like to be a fly on the wall.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Big John

I agree with the posts above and that the newer the diesel the bigger the difference between the official mpg. My old Superb 1.9pd averaged about 50mpg whereas the official was about 48 (lengthy commute). I have had a few diesel hire cars and have usually been disappointed - especially with an Astra diesel that only did just over 40mpg. One noteable exception was a Mitubishi ASX diesel which did over 50mpg - impressive considering it's shape, height and size

However I've now moved back to petrol - the official/real lifegap has somewhat grown with euro 6 diesels with adblueSCR(as well as catalyst and DPF). I paid a huge amount less for the petrol but was impressed after a long test drive where I did part of my commute

Edited by Big John on 22/02/2016 at 23:08

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - V4 Heaven

As an outsider looking in, it's interesting to continue to read about the fantasy land of mpg figures.

Makes the decision to sell my 19 year old, 215,000 mile Toyota Carina 1.8 petrol even more difficult, especially as I'm regularly getting 43-45 mpg, with the occasional summer high 40's mpg. And it never breaks down thanks to regular maintenance by a trusted local independent garage.

Style wise it doesn't cut it any more but when I look to change, I'm potentially spending thousands of pounds more to achieve similar mpg?

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - gordonbennet

Keep that Carina going as long as you can, zero depreciation and a very good car to boot, 90's again, the finest car design era by miles.

You will never have cheaper nor more simple motoring than you have now, as for style you're in the welcoming ranks of us lovable (well maybe) eccentrics who simply do not want what is made now and refuse to buy what they tell us we should have.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Bolt

Keep that Carina going as long as you can, zero depreciation and a very good car to boot, 90's again, the finest car design era by miles.

You will never have cheaper nor more simple motoring than you have now, as for style you're in the welcoming ranks of us lovable (well maybe) eccentrics who simply do not want what is made now and refuse to buy what they tell us we should have.

Totally agree, I notice there are still a few about, I tried to buy one about 10years ago but the price was too high, though now I wish I`d paid it, I think it was the most reliable and economical of all toyotas made imo.

I bought a rover instead lol

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - skidpan

Lets be honest, whilst no car I have ever owned has come anywhere near matching the combined average (except on a long holiday trip) cars have got much better over the years.

A few examples:

1974 1800 cc Vauxhall Magnum. Had about 75 bhp and was not exactly a ball of fire yet only managed to average about 25 mpg. Short runs in winter resulted in mid teens but on a run it would just break 30 mpg.

In 1980 I bought my first new car, a Mk 2 Escort 1600. 82 bhp and in normal use it averaged in the low 30's and on a runs the high 30's. Considering it was much quicker than the Magnum I saw that as progress.

Move on 9 years and I bought a Mk2 Golf GTi 1.8 8V. 112 bhp and my first quick car with 0-60 in the low 8's and decent drivability. Would average mid 30's and on a run just creep into the low 40's. Compared to the Escort more progress.

Move on 25 years. Got a Seat Leon 1.4 TSi 140 bhp. Quickest normal car I have owned, in gear acceleration is simply stunning. It averages 45 mpg in normal use and will just creep into the mid 50's on a coast trip. It also weighs far more than any of the above cars, at least 300kg more and has much wider tyres both of which drag the economy down. Now that's what I call progress.

So whilst modern cars don't achieve the EU figures they are actually far more economical than similar cars of the past.

We have never had it so good.

But some of us still believe everything we read or are told.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - John Boy

Avant said: "I fear that if you do, you'll be referred to a taxidermist."

I think you might have made that crack before, Avant. Nevertheless, it's very good and, this time, I written it down so that I can use it myself elsewhere.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - DirtyDieselDogg

Perhaps the Motoring Community could learn a thing or 2 from the Agricultural Communities tractor technology.

In that say 30 year ago tractor Hp and Torque started to become too much for driver controlled dry clutchs to survive.

The tractor transmission manufacturers therefore removed the Driver from the equation, the electronic "brain" modulates the clutch and therefore will NOT damage it.

"Computer says no!"

I suppose the corrolation with cars is that until a computer plans the maintenance, tyre pressures, route, accelleration and braking, fuel efficiency will remain elusive, it being largely determined by the drivers limited brain function.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - craig-pd130

The tractor transmission manufacturers therefore removed the Driver from the equation, the electronic "brain" modulates the clutch and therefore will NOT damage it.

"Computer says no!"

I suppose the corrolation with cars is that until a computer plans the maintenance, tyre pressures, route, accelleration and braking, fuel efficiency will remain elusive, it being largely determined by the drivers limited brain function.

I think a few car manufacturers have tried to do that with DSG boxes, and they seem to be quite prone to failing ....

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - DirtyDieselDogg

Strangely enough, I drive a DSG Octavia, which is definately a proper "Parsons Egg" in its idosyncracies, some plain and simply due to glitches in the ill-developed software.

But, on balance, I ud be well reluctant to start using my left leg on a clutch again.

PS

I think John Deeres double, wet, oil cooled clutchs, one for forward, one for reverse, time about on shuttle work, introduced in the early 1990's(from memory) was a work of simple genius.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Wolfan

PS

I think John Deeres double, wet, oil cooled clutchs, one for forward, one for reverse, time about on shuttle work, introduced in the early 1990'sh(from memory) was a work of simple genius.

The Nuffield organisation used wet cork clutches in the '30s in Wolseleys, MGs and Morrises but reverted to the conventional design in the latter part of that decade, an old idea improved and brought up to date.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - Avant

Interesting, as the wet-clutch DSGs seem much less prone to failing than the dry-clutch type. John Deere no doubt knew what they were doing.

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - slkfanboy

wet clutch dsg uses the oil to cool the clutch plates and therefore can take much more load.

Having said the VAG had issues with those too

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - madf

PS

I think John Deeres double, wet, oil cooled clutchs, one for forward, one for reverse, time about on shuttle work, introduced in the early 1990'sh(from memory) was a work of simple genius.

The Nuffield organisation used wet cork clutches in the '30s in Wolseleys, MGs and Morrises but reverted to the conventional design in the latter part of that decade, an old idea improved and brought up to date.

I remember stripping an XPAG engine from a MG TB... the cork clutches were in good condition while the engine had more scores on the cranksaft than Messi has goals against a***nal..

Audi A4 Tdi 177 - Real MPG. Do I have a claim? - DirtyDieselDogg

Indeed, re the proven capacity of wet clutches to withstand use and abuse.

However the dry cerametallic clutch in the Fiat 640 tractor from the middle 70's, withstood about 30 years of hard but fair use, under my fathers, Uncles, and to a lesser extent mine own use, incl on a hedge cutter(not renowned for being kind to clutches with the reletavily constant stop/starting under full PTO power)

So I figgered the might of VW's engineering nous should be able to make a dry double clutch work in a measly 105BHP.

Especially since the ordinary dry single clutch in the Ford Galaxy 1.9TDI withstood 253,000 hard miles,(incl house building related trailer towing) with nary a sign o slipping.

Cheers

Marcus