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I know I am fascinated by DPF's but is it possible your car is trying to re gen?
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I don't think regeneration would make the car difficult to start, would it?
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There are many factors that need to be met before a regen will start. One of those is the engine must be at a certain temperature. That means several miles of motoring before a car will attempt a regen.
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Reject the car - too many variables to allow the dealer to try and put it right. As you only bought it on the 15th, strike while the iron's hot.
The fact that he told you twice that this is normal for a diesel and to change the battery, suggets he knows there is a fault.
Please come back and tell us what happens.
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Thanks for the reply.
I emailed him yesterday after my OP, telling him I rejected the car, and that I wanted a full refund, and giving reasons. He replied within an hour, saying, basically, p*** off, you have no mechanical knowledge, the car is fit for purpose, and fit a new battery. If it's still bad after you fit a new battery, he will get a qualified engineer to look at it.
I have been keeping records of what's happening from the moment the car went wrong (including phone calls, etc). I have video evidence too, and my neighbour saw what happened on the morning following the purchase.
I'm spitting blood about this, but trying to keep it cool. Don't want to waste time and money getting a mechanic to look at it (and my neighbour worked with diesels for decades, who agrees largely with what has been written above, and that, whatever is wrong, it will be expensive).
Advice for next step, please?
Thanks again.
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I suggest a letter, post by mail which requires a signature. Again outline for your reasons for rejection. Don't go beyond facts and try and keep emotion out of it.
Someone with better legal knowledge than me will hopefully be along, but in your letter you should advise him that if he does not respond within say 5 working days with reasons why he thinks the car was NOT faulty on the day of purchase, you will commence legal action under the Sale of Goods Act - the car is neither fit for purpose nor of satisfactory quality, given age, mileage, price etc.
Then you need to file a small claims court proceeding. Search online for this, it will cost you a few hundred IIRC and even if you win, the dealer may be reluctant to pay up.
However, his attitude stinks (from what you've said here) so he will try and avoid facing his responsibility For every 10 people who experience this kind of treatment, I suspect he knows that 8 or 9 will just go away. Good luck.
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I agree with 72 dudes view of this, its quite obvious the dealer is a wide boy, don't bother with spoken contact, he's probably an expert at waffle and will attempt to prolong things to make things more difficult for rejection.
Get legal immediately, his attitude is all the reason you need, he isn't going to do the decent thing and behave honourably, he wants it the hard way let him have it.
If it were me i know it will cost more for me but i'd let my solicitor sort him out, it might cost more but he sounds like he needs a legal nose bleed, but then i don't trust meself to do the small claims route well enough.
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The problem with using the small claims court is that it is, by it's own admission, hopelessly behind and collapsing under it's own weight.
They're doubling the fees this month in an attempt to stop people using it as the average time for a very simple case is currently 7-8 months before a hearing and the general policy is to try and force you into mediation.
I'd agree with the general diagnosis of the car - it is the poor starting which is the root cause. Diesel do sometimes puff out a bit of smoke when starting on a cold morning but this time of year it should fire up promptly and cleanly. The smoke you are seeing is partially burnt fuel coming out as it attempts to fire on some cylinders. This can *sometimes* be due to an iffy battery - if the engine doesn't turn over fast enough the pressure in the common rail doesn't build and it won't fire. Modern diesels do indeed need a very healthy battery. If you have another car it would be worth trying jumping to it and seeing if it helps to rule this out.
The engine in these is fairly common and used in various PSA, Volvo & Ford cars so a diesel specialist should be able to diagnose it (which you'll need to do if going to court).
The seller clearly knew there was something wrong with it.
Edited by pd on 18/04/2014 at 16:33
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They're doubling the fees this month in an attempt to stop people using it as the average time for a very simple case is currently 7-8 months before a hearing and the general policy is to try and force you into mediation.
Is there any reason why mediation (or some other form of alternative/proportionate dispute resolution) is necessarily a bad thing?
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Reject the car - too many variables to allow the dealer to try and put it right. As you only bought it on the 15th, strike while the iron's hot.
The fact that he told you twice that this is normal for a diesel and to change the battery, suggets he knows there is a fault.
Please come back and tell us what happens.
As I understand you cannot reject it until the dealer has two tries at reairing it,more than likely the EGR valve requires cleaning or replacing common fault.
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All,
I've arranged for a third-party specialist inspection and report. I will let you know how it goes.
Meanwhile, others in the same situation may find this useful: OFT guidance for used card dealers. (Apologies if you already know about it.)
www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.p...f
The second part, which covers SOGA, is more useful than the first (though that also seems to be relevant to my situation, as I reckon he's breached several CPRs). A good summary.
Regards
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I've only just seen this thread, so apologies for coming late to it. The 2L 407 is regarded as the most reliable of the range.
While old batteries do cause some strange things to happen, you shouldn't be seeing any white smoke and what the dealer has said is wrong.
The age and the low mileage would make me think that the problems might be concentrated on the DPF and regeneration system. The 407 is a "rep car" and designed to spend its life on motorways. Lots of short trips will have shortened the life of the system.
A good diagnostic check (I'd recommend your inspectors use Planet or Diagbox) will show up any faults and can check individual components.
Keep us posted as to what happens.
Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 23/04/2014 at 15:09
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I wonder if you can answer a post without mentioning "Planet"
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What on earth was the point of that comment, Collos? If you haven't anything helpful or constructive to say when someone has a problem, don't say anything at all.
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Poor batteries do cause low crankspeed which can make starting difficult and as diesel is being injected, when it finally builds up enough heat through semi-conbustion and friction to start it will clatter and knock and puff white smoke.
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Collos is just a muppet. He seems to forget that we're all here to help. All except him, he's just here to criticise.
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No I am not a muppet and I do not have to rely on a piece of software for everything I know as you seem to do.If its not in planet then it cannot be fixed is your only saying I suggest you grow up and widen your horizons to other toys.As a matter of interest you have failed in your many posts to give a worthwhile diagnosis execpt to say you are an expert on PSA cars a fact you have yet to prove.
Edited by Collos25 on 24/04/2014 at 16:26
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Heading back on track with the OP's question :-)
There could be a possibility of the EGR cooler having an internal leak ? Have you noticed if the coolant level has dropped any ?
I had one giving the symptoms of a head gasket leak a year ago, the gasket checked out OK, but the EGR cooler had failed internally and was leaking coolant into the cylinders leading to white smoke from the exhaust as it burnt it off.
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No I am not a muppet and I do not have to rely on a piece of software for everything I know as you seem to do.If its not in planet then it cannot be fixed is your only saying I suggest you grow up and widen your horizons to other toys.As a matter of interest you have failed in your many posts to give a worthwhile diagnosis execpt to say you are an expert on PSA cars a fact you have yet to prove.
Half the problem with modern diesels is people not being able to fix then due to lack of proper knowledge and/or not having the correct tools.
Having proper main dealer level diagniostic software for any car isn't guaranteed to fix anything but it certainly helps and is often a lot better than generic code readers.
Even the good stuff (e.g. SnapOn Solus with recent firmware) often can't pick up things which specific manufacturer kit can.
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Having proper main dealer level diagniostic software for any car isn't guaranteed to fix anything but it certainly helps and is often a lot better than generic code readers.
Even the good stuff (e.g. SnapOn Solus with recent firmware) often can't pick up things which specific manufacturer kit can.
Even then, it's not infallible - last year a Volvo main dealer took three attempts to fix a recurring 'emissions warning' lamp in my V60. The error code that kept coming up was "EGR flow out of range."
When I first took the car to them, I told them the fault had come up while the DPF was regenerating, but the fault code was EGR-related, so they put on a new EGR valve, some pipework etc ... and the fault kept recurring.
Eventually they resorted to robbing parts from another car and testing by substitution. Turned out to be a dodgy DPF pressure sensor. But the Volvo diagnostic list has no DPF-specific fault codes, which seems to be utter madness, but its true.
So the main dealer spent a good couple of days diagnostic time, and fitting new parts, chasing a red herring. I reckon the total cost would have been well over £2000 if the car hadn't been under warranty.
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So the main dealer spent a good couple of days diagnostic time, and fitting new parts, chasing a red herring. I reckon the total cost would have been well over £2000 if the car hadn't been under warranty.
And so another good reason not to buy any diesel outside warranty.
Would the volvo dealer have swapped bits from "stock" cars if the customer was paying.
Once the bit is fitted invoiced to customer!
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So the main dealer spent a good couple of days diagnostic time, and fitting new parts, chasing a red herring. I reckon the total cost would have been well over £2000 if the car hadn't been under warranty.
And so another good reason not to buy any diesel outside warranty.
Would the volvo dealer have swapped bits from "stock" cars if the customer was paying.
Once the bit is fitted invoiced to customer!
I agree, if I was in the market for a private car, this experience would certainly make me choose petrol, not diesel.
I understand that dealers doing warranty work have to follow diagnostic procedures laid down by the manufacturer's head office. But when the Volvo first went into the dealer's workshop with the fault, I gave the service manager full, written details of the circumstances under which the light came on (stating the DPF was regenerating at the time, and the regeneration stopped the instant the warning lamp lit up).
Yet they only looked at the DPF and its sensors after they'd replaced everything in and around the EGR valve. Their loss, not mine in this case (I had a courtesy car etc), but I would counsel anyone buying a DPF-equipped used car to consider an aftermarket warranty that covers DPF sensors (if such a warranty exists, that is).
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It's this sort of example which has convinced many of us, including HJ, that the days of diesels holding their value better than petrols are coming to an end.
I would go so far as to say 'don't buy a diesel if you're going to keep the car beyond the warranty period' unless the diesel is one with a good record for lasting well without expensive failure. The VAG 1.9 PD and Ford 2.0 TDCI are two such, and I think one or more of the Peugeot/Citroen engines - I can't remember which ones.
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No I am not a muppet and I do not have to rely on a piece of software for everything I know as you seem to do.If its not in planet then it cannot be fixed is your only saying I suggest you grow up and widen your horizons to other toys.As a matter of interest you have failed in your many posts to give a worthwhile diagnosis execpt to say you are an expert on PSA cars a fact you have yet to prove.
So why do the dealers use the same equipment then?
Its more than a code reader, it reads live engine data and also can test individual parts, such as opening and closing the EGR valve and tells you what %age its open and operating at.
You sound like you own one of those garages where you just throw parts at a problem at the customer's expense. Nice but of profit in fitting an EGR valve (although there's no evidence this is at fault on this thread). I bet you hate that there are people out there doing diagnostics and taking your nice lucrative business away from you! Either that or you're just an armchair expert. My credentials are detailed below, maybe you'd like to share yours.
And I've never said "If its not in planet then it cannot be fixed" so I don't know where you've got that from. I recommend Planet simply because of rip off or irgnorant fix-anything (or try to) garages who use any old code reader and have no life experience with Peugeots (unlike me who has been working with and owning and driving them since 1992) and just waste the owner's time and money with bad diagnostics -
Such as the two garages who claimed the high pressure fuel pump had failed because the fault code pointed to that - P1113. My long experience with Peugeots told me it was probably the lift pump. A diagnostic with Planet showed that the fuel flow at the pump was below reference value.
Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 25/04/2014 at 22:25
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The main problem with modern diesels, and modern cars in general, is that the skills set required to fix them is lacking in many garages - including main dealers.
You do need the latest equipment but equally important you need to know how to use it and have experience in being able to identify what the fault actually is. As the above example illustrates - a code does not necessarily mean that it is that part at fault.
Far too many garages will spend on buying kit but then won't spend keeping it updated and their staff trained on it.
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Thanks again for the replies.
The main dealer started it from warm, and did a standard diagnostic test on it, which didn't reveal anything. I suggested they keep it overnight. The next morning, they started it, and found white and blue smoke, and the following faults:
- EGR valve was stuck closed
- Engine was mis-firing from cold
- Exhaust fumes were entering the interior (!)
- A minor fault with the air con.
They quoted me about £850 to fix the EGR and run further tests on the mis-firing (compression and injector fuel leak-off tests). This didn't include tests on the exhaust leak.
I think I've got a strong case for a refund.
Edited by peugeot_buyer on 26/04/2014 at 17:01
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The EGR valve stuck closed doesn't sound like it would be the issue to me, have a look on the Pug forums and see how many people have blanked off their EGR valves, or disconnected the vacuum pipe when the valve is in the closed position (myself included) and we don't have any smoking problems.
www.peugeotforums.com/forums/407-41/egr-blanking-2.../
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All,
Many thanks for the help. I have managed to get a refund without going to court, thankfully.
Regards
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Excellent news, well done. Thanks for coming back and telling us.
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I am currently looking for another car. This thread has reinforced what I have already learnt from the forum - with my mileage and motoring don't buy a diesel. Wish I'd known that bef
There have been many very helpful posts appreciated by the OP. The spell with a few negative exchanges was totally unnecessary and rightly picked up by moderator.
I have previously used the forum under a different username but dropped out when some threads were becoming offensive. I returned because I do value and benefit from people willing to give their time to benefit others.
There are many very knowledgeable and helpful people who contribute. When threads are affected by snide comments it erodes the fundamental value of a forum.
Apologies if this post is misunderstood it is well intended and not meant, in any way, to be pompous (even if it might sound it ! )
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>> I have managed to get a refund without going to court
Well done, you must be very relieved.
Edited by corax on 05/05/2014 at 16:55
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Excellent result, which shows there was a serious problem all along or the seller would have fixed it themselves, well done for sticking your ground.
Thanks for updating the thread.
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