No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - hillman

There is an article in the Mail regarding the LibDem plan to make all cars non-polluting by 2040. The newspaper solicited the opinions of the AA and RAC which were, AA : "You can't suddenly turn the clock off between 2039 and 2040. It needs to be a longer time frame. " RAC : "This will be pretty unfair for a lot of motorist who invest in cars with the intention of keeping them a long time".

What is the considered opinion of the BRs ?

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Ben 10

I want an electric vehicle that can do the same mileage as my car before re-chaging. I want the price of them to be cheap enough for everyone to buy. If the answer is no to both then I still want to use my dinosaur juice version until these are met. And when do you ever believe what the LibDems say anyway. They do have a track record for telling porkies.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - veryoldbear

We'd better start building a load more power stations to suply all the electricity that will be needed.

We'd better start inventing batteries that will give AT LEAST 400 miles realistic range in winter in traffic with the heater working.

Then we can start thinking phasing out the IC engine.

The LibDems do thermselves no credit for floating ideas like this ... it is pure green cattle excrement. Sorry guys ...

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - focussed

Yes - the UK is going to need alot more power generation capacity if the planned introduction of electric cars is going to be more than a tree- hugger's wet dream.

I just looked up what the power consumption is for charging the Renault Zoe.

3 kilowatt 16 amp single- phase wall box - 9 hours on charge

22 kilowatt 32 amp three-phase charging station- 1 hour charge time

43 kilowatt 63 amp three-phase charging station- 30 minutes charge time

What you might call serious power supply requirements-where's that going to come from if electric cars get popular? Windmills?

As a worst case -If 1000 people buy these cars and all plug them in at the same time on a 30 minute charge that's the output of a small power station - 43 megawatts.

Why can't politicians and their idiot advisors understand basic science?

Ok right they are all arts graduates -I'd forgotten that.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Andrew-T

I want an electric vehicle that can do the same mileage as my car before re-chaging. I want the price of them to be cheap enough for everyone to buy.

If most buyers adopt Ben's approach it won't happen - Catch-22. No-one buys - new item never gets cheap.

And it will take something radical to overcome the disadvantages of huge heavy batteries or compressed hydrogen tanks. If cars become electric the electricity must be created somewhere, by some more-or-less polluting process. Keeps town centres clearer though.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - gordonbennet

One would hope that the dims would be consigned to history where they belong following the current term, unfortunately they may well hold a balance of seats for many years to come as the electorate vote for the same again whilst expecting a different result, not as voting them out would make a scrap of different to the course our country will take, which is now determined by unelected apparatchiks in Brussels.

The country will be well on the way to a population of 100 million by then, so forcing cars to be non emitting will be far down the list of the country's problems.

Only glad i won't be around to see it.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - artill

If all cars on the road have to be zero tail pipe CO2 by 2040 then really all new cars will have to be there by 2025 given how many 15 year old cars are still in use, and that just cant happen, the technology wont be affordable by then.

If its just new cars had to be zero tailpipe CO2 by 2040, i can see it could happen. I dont know if cars will be all battery, or run on Hydrogen, but of course it all comes from powerstations that we dont have, or have plans for.

As long as no one actually bans me from driving what i already own, i cant see why i couldnt buy a petrol car in 2039 and keep it until i die.

But firstly i cant see any politician having the balls to ban me from driving what i own, and probably it wont be long before new Internal combustion cars are so restricted by regulations that i may well choose something else for day to day driving before i am forced to.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - jamie745

What is the considered opinion of the BRs ?

I think we can take anything a Lib Dem says with a large pinch of salt, because next year they'll cease to exist or matter.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - gordonbennet

I wouldn't bank on the lib dems vanishing, never underestimate the stupidity of the electorate, they returned blair twice and you'd have thought once was enough for anyone, and they'll vote overhwelmingly again for continued cuddling up with the EU by endorsing either of the three cheeks of the same backside party.

Expect the current deputy PM to have a nice little number in the EU shortly after the next election.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - jamie745

I don't think the electorate has voted overwhelmingly for anyone or anything for quite some time. Less than two thirds bothered voting last time. Blair's third victory was on just 35% of the vote - previously deemed impossible.

I'm not sure we can take predictions of when we'll stop using petrol seriously. When my parents were at school, they were told there'd be no oil left by 2000.

They've now discovered Saudi Arabia offshore Rio.

Edited by jamie745 on 15/03/2014 at 15:46

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - mss1tw
The only "Non-polluting" car is one that is still in the ground.

Facts should never get in the way of a good soundbite, though.
No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Snakey

Apart from the fact the lib dems are a waste of blood and organs....

How do we propose to switch over to electric cars? We constantly told that we're on a knife edge for providing enough electricity for the countrys homes, so even if 10% of the motoring public switched over to electric then we're in trouble. Switch that to 60-100% of cars and we'll need power stations everywhere!

And thats assuming the battery technology has improved a lot, as the ones in electric cars are still glorified laptop batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell cars seem like a more realistic long term aim to me.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - jamie745

That's a good point actually I missed that. Due to EU carbon dioxide targets, we are being forced to shut more of our power stations this year and we're at serious risk of blackouts in 2015.

The Liberal Democrats fully support EU membership and loudly support these co2 targets, so how can they then demand that every car uses our ever dwindling electricity supply? They simply cannot have it every way they want. It stinks of rank hypocrisy and they're lying to the public by spouting this horse manure.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - galileo

Apart from the fact the lib dems are a waste of blood and organs.... True!

How do we propose to switch over to electric cars? We constantly told that we're on a knife edge for providing enough electricity for the countrys homes, so even if 10% of the motoring public switched over to electric then we're in trouble. Switch that to 60-100% of cars and we'll need power stations everywhere!

And thats assuming the battery technology has improved a lot, as the ones in electric cars are still glorified laptop batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell cars seem like a more realistic long term aim to me.

Except there are few ways to source the Hydrogen. 1) Extract it from Natural Gas (and dispose of the Carbon that remains) 2) From coal, by passing steam through red hot coke (which also produces Carbon Monoxide) or 3) Electrolyse water (oh, sorry, that needs electricity, doesn't it?)

Any other practically feasible large scale methods? (Acid on granulated Zinc?)

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - jamie745

The thing with hydrogen is we know it actually does work. Cars have been made which run on it and it does work. Despite this fact, policy makers are still very keen to kick subsidy at stuff which clearly doesn't work.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - mss1tw

I'm suprised those compressed air cars didn't catch on more for local runabout cars. No battery, minimal servicing

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Sofa Spud

If the title of the thread was modified to read 'No petrol or diesel cars in city centres after 2040', it might have more credibility. By then I think nearly all cars will be either hybrids capable of running a reasonable distance in battery mode, or pure electric cars.

Quote:..""I'm suprised those compressed air cars didn't catch on more for local runabout cars. No battery, minimal servicing."" No battery, maybe, but compressed air tanks instead!

Edited by Sofa Spud on 15/03/2014 at 19:30

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - mss1tw

Quote:..""I'm suprised those compressed air cars didn't catch on more for local runabout cars. No battery, minimal servicing."" No battery, maybe, but compressed air tanks instead!

So? Every car on the road is driving around with a tank of volatile fuel on board!

Not to mention any aerosols, gas canisters, even LPG conversions that might also go up in flames if it catches fire.


No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - corax

Except there are few ways to source the Hydrogen. 1) Extract it from Natural Gas (and dispose of the Carbon that remains) 2) From coal, by passing steam through red hot coke (which also produces Carbon Monoxide) or 3) Electrolyse water (oh, sorry, that needs electricity, doesn't it?)

Any other practically feasible large scale methods? (Acid on granulated Zinc?)

Unless we are talking about fuel cell cars, to store hydrogen as a liquid it needs to be at -253 degreesC.

Also it would require a huge effort in logistics to transport it around the country in this state.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Trilogy

I'm going to stand for MP. My party's name, perfect for for the voting slip, will be 'None of the others'.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - misar

I'm going to stand for MP. My party's name, perfect for for the voting slip, will be 'None of the others'.

The first sensible comment in this thread.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Ed V

No internet only 20 years ago. Who knows what's possible given the right financial incentives to develope different sources of power?

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Andrew-T

No internet only 20 years ago. Who knows what's possible given the right financial incentives to develope different sources of power?

The simple answer to your simple question is 'no-one'. But it's not yet possible to defeat the basic laws of physics, however much money is thrown at it. We are still waiting for a controlled hydrogen-fusion process, and people have been trying for some time. It won't be possible to put a small nuclear reactor in every car either, and I'm not sure we would like to live with it anyway.

Too many people enjoy travelling too much, leading to clogged roads etc. It may be easier to change that mindset.

Edited by Andrew-T on 16/03/2014 at 18:36

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Bolt

I prefer petrol and diesel myself,so the longer it takes for electric cars to become the norm the better.

I hate to think what the electric bill would be like as well,bad enough now ; )

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - SlidingPillar

Some veteran cars were electric and their range is not much less than moderns! Harrods had some electric delivery vans too.

But the limiting factor on range, then as now is battery capacity. We're not really that good at the technology of storing electrical power. And until we can store much more electricity, the electric vehicle will remain a footnote on history.

Edited by SlidingPillar on 16/03/2014 at 21:06

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Ethan Edwards

I'm hoping there won't be much of a Lib Dem party left after 2015.

Think my wish is more likely than theirs..

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Avant

"But it's not yet possible to defeat the basic laws of physics, however much money is thrown at it."

Good point in a good debate. I feel optimistic that advances will still be made, ones that we may not completely foresee at the moment, just as things have happened in the last 50 years in particular.

It'll probably be one of these -

(a) Improved electricity storage (are Tesla getting somewhere with this?)

(b) Reduction in the cost of fuel cells

(c) Some way of drastically reducing the emissions of petrol and/or diesel engines.

I've really no idea which will come first. But it won't be politicians who come up with the ideas. The people who do will have had proper training and experience in their field, something that for some reason isn't a necessary qualification for a politician, despite the importance of the decisions that they have to make..


No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Bolt

As Avant mentioned Tesla are investing a lot in the storage and production

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/09/cheap-batteries-renewable-energy-market-big-power-companies-wind-solar-power

and if electric motors become smaller but more powerfull using less current I think they could beat the petrol/diesel for range,which may come quicker than battery development

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Snakey

I wonder if hybrids are going to be the short to medium term solution. Gradually using less and less fuel combined with better and better electricity generation and storage.

I know a lot of hybrids aren't any better than diesels, but diesels are getting so over complicated and compromised that buyers might drift towards to hybrids. Most of the 'advancements' on diesels are about reducing the emissions of a fundamentally dirty engine, hybrids are more about more efficient generation and storage of power.

I can see my next car being a hybrid, but not an all electric or diesel.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Collos25

I have just taken delivery of a Hybrid for use in the UK it is very good on all counts but as far as 2040 is concerned if by some miracle I am still alive I think driving will be the least of my of my worries.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Andrew-T

I wonder if hybrids are going to be the short to medium term solution. Gradually using less and less fuel combined with better and better electricity generation and storage.

I know a lot of hybrids aren't any better than diesels, but diesels are getting so over complicated and compromised that buyers might drift towards to hybrids.

Most electricity is produced by burning fuel in a power station. Storing it in a battery for use later can only be (perhaps marginally) less efficient overall. I'm not sure how the weight of an adequate battery in a car compares with that of a fuel tank, which does have the virtue of getting lighter as the fuel is used.

Modern diesels are certainly getting complex, but is a hybrid not equally complex in its own way?

Perhaps teleportation is the goal of the future ....

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - kiss (keep it simple)

The only practical and pragmatic solution that I can see is banning tailpipe emissions in urban areas.At least there is a decent chance of putting in a recharging infrastructure. Electric vehicles are pretty efficient a typical town speeds and long range isn't needed. Once out on the open road and motorways, the advantage disappears and aproperly designed IC engine does very well, especially when it is optimised for this type of duty.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Snakey

I wonder if hybrids are going to be the short to medium term solution. Gradually using less and less fuel combined with better and better electricity generation and storage.

I know a lot of hybrids aren't any better than diesels, but diesels are getting so over complicated and compromised that buyers might drift towards to hybrids.

Most electricity is produced by burning fuel in a power station. Storing it in a battery for use later can only be (perhaps marginally) less efficient overall. I'm not sure how the weight of an adequate battery in a car compares with that of a fuel tank, which does have the virtue of getting lighter as the fuel is used.

Modern diesels are certainly getting complex, but is a hybrid not equally complex in its own way?

Perhaps teleportation is the goal of the future ....

Maybe the range extender types that use petrol engines to generate their own electricity are better?

Teleportation, sign me up for that!

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - galileo

and if electric motors become smaller but more powerfull using less current I think they could beat the petrol/diesel for range,which may come quicker than battery development

Power is measured in Watts. Watts = Volts x Amps. Less current = less power. Stepping up voltage would reduce current for the same wattage but the total quantity of electricity is the same. Only better motor and battery efficiency will increase range but unlikely to double or triple current limits.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - S40 Man

Does anyone think there will be much Petrol or Diesel left in 26 years time? Might be entirely accademic argument if there is non-left or it's prohibitively expensive

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - jamie745

Oh there'll be plenty left. Big business may sell us something else, oil producers may decide to stop producing or big Government may prohibit our access to it, but it'll all still be there.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Collos25

I seem to remember many years ago a peanut farmer in America who became president telling the us the world was on its last legs as far as oil production was concerned the moral is never believe a politician.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Andrew-T

Does anyone think there will be much Petrol or Diesel left in 26 years time? Might be entirely accademic argument if there is non-left or it's prohibitively expensive

Oh there will always be some left, but as you expect, it will get dearer as the 'easy' oilfields are worked out. Ultimately it will be too expensive to remain the fuel of the common people. More bikes?

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - markweatherill

"go back to your constituencies and prepare for government."

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Trilogy

At least one of my cars will run on veg oil.

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - galileo

There are still traction engines around and plenty of coal. :-)

Edited by galileo on 20/03/2014 at 22:49

No petrol or diesel cars after 2040 - Andrew-T

There are still traction engines around and plenty of coal. :-)

Not enough to make much impact though, I think? One or two outings a year? There are probably more real steam engines burning it.

Edited by Andrew-T on 20/03/2014 at 23:04