This rule should apply to all two lane dual carriageways eg A299, 2 lane section of M2, M26, and so on across the UK
Excellent, how to you propose to get from the slip road to the car lane and vice versa?
Doesn't bother me in the least i can cruise all day at the average speed of 20 mph which the lorry lane will be travelling at (its stuff you want to buy thats on the back with escalating transport costs), quite how you expect to enter the lorry lane via the slip road and then again enter the car lane that should apparently be travelling 50mph faster i look forward to seeing.
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The no LGV/towing vehicles overtaking at peak periods works in Germany on the two lane autobahns, why would it be so disastrous in the UK?
Are the Germans such better drivers?
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We have a no-HGV etc overtaking peak hour lane on the Ilsley Hill on the A34 which works fairly well. The main problem on really busy 2-lane dual carriageways is reconciling the 56 mph lorryists with the 90 mph Audi and Range Rover mob. The poor 70 mph "standard" motorist gets the worst of both worlds
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We have a no-HGV etc overtaking peak hour lane on the Ilsley Hill on the A34 which works fairly well. The main problem on really busy 2-lane dual carriageways is reconciling the 56 mph lorryists with the 90 mph Audi and Range Rover mob. The poor 70 mph "standard" motorist gets the worst of both worlds
Very sensible view there VOB, there are sections where this sort of restriction makes sense.
By the way, many lorry drivers cringe at the antics of a certain type of lorry licence holde for they get us all a bad namer, its bacause of the growing significant minority that this problem exists at all, what the idiots don't seem able to understand is that if they don't sharpen up then legislation will come in to force us all to to the lowest common denominator...as is the usual way in this country with most things.
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Are the Germans such better drivers?
Absolutely though that applies to car as well as lorry drivers (though some of the best i know are Romanians, many of still old school), and theres enough foreign lorry drivers here that you'd think they would have taught us by now, they certainly spin enough British cars out when changing lanes..:-)
There's far less lorries per mile than there is in hopelessly overcrowded Britain, if you crammed the sheer volume of commercial vehicles into the same mileage of German roads as here you would find exactly the same problems.
So many of our roads like so much of our infrastructure were done on the cheap requiring it all to be done again in short order to cope with the increase.
Take A14 as an example, if you'd have popped down to Jacks Hill or Lavender Blue cafes in the 80's and asked the lorry drivers there what would happen if we built an east west dual carriageway only wide enough for two lanes and with a single track road at its Catthorpe junction, they would have laughed and told you it would soon be one of the busiest roads in the country and the single tracks would result in deaths and destruction, pity they didn't ask a few hairy back sided lorry drivers what was needed at the time.
A12's just as bad, the two lane sections cannot possibly cope with the commercial traffic let alone commuting traffic too.
I'm not bothered if this goes ahead by the way, i'm quite happy to stay in the inside lane all day, but don't think for one minute that this is going to cure the problem, its going to cause different ones is all, you can only funnel as much of any product including traffic as fast as the narrowest point can take it.
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I was recently speaking to a very interesting man from Vosa who specialises in examining HGV's. He informed me practically every truck driven by a Romanian is dangerous, under maintained and would never pass the UK tests.
There was a plan to upgrade the A14 to the M14 in the mid 1980s, but it never got built and the shelved plan became a shredded plan in 1997.
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I was recently speaking to a very interesting man from Vosa who specialises in examining HGV's. He informed me practically every truck driven by a Romanian is dangerous, under maintained and would never pass the UK tests.
That doesn't surprise me but thats not to say that the chap behind the wheel isn't very skilled in what he does, he manages to keep those vehicles upright which many of our clowns can't.
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I agree that the standard of road users in the UK (including cyclists) has fallen dramatically since people are taught to "pass the test", not be good road users/drivers (I wonder if the cycling proficiency test still is done in schools - probably not).
All too often road users don't pay enough attention to what's going on around them, anticipating (as far as possible) what others want/are doing and how to make progress by hindering others the least (if at all). I try (as far as possible) to overtake so as not to slow down traffic in the faster lanes, even sometimes doing so by overtaking (on dual carriageways/motorways) on right-hand bends so that (like on an athletics track) the overtaking lane is the shorter distance and thus you don't need to go that much faster, or the manouvre takes less time.
This could apply to HGVs, although I appreciate some roads (like the A12 and many others in the East) are very straight (thanks Romans!). Perhaps they (and other road users - I do this if there's space behind) slightly back off when you see that someone overtaking is doing so only gradually and holding up a queue of traffic, possibly when going downhill, as its then easier to pick up the pace again.
The same "courteous behaviour" could also go a long way for the slow middle land hoggers (most often car drivers) and tail-gaters, who cause IMO just as much hold-ups as lorries overtaking one another. The problem is that too may road users are practicing selfish (and often potentially dangerous) behaviour, which in the end hurts the vast majority (and often them if others ahead do so as well). People who soley blame lorry drivers are often trying to deflect balem from their own shortcoming behind the wheel - we ALL have a responsibility to drive in a courteous, considerate and defensive manner which encourages the safe, free-flow of traffic. We would all benefit in the end if we did.
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we ALL have a responsibility to drive in a courteous, considerate and defensive manner which encourages the safe, free-flow of traffic. We would all benefit in the end if we did.
Isn't that the truth but so hard to drive home to so many, good post that EA.
There is one good thing about this ban, it won't apply to foreigners who A will ignore it and B not be nicked anyway, similar to how they blast flat out through average speed camera sections forcing everyone else aside, the anti lorry car drivers will then only have the foreigners to complain about and risk being labelled as 'ists..:-)
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we ALL have a responsibility to drive in a courteous, considerate and defensive manner which encourages the safe, free-flow of traffic. We would all benefit in the end if we did.
Isn't that the truth but so hard to drive home to so many, good post that EA.
There is one good thing about this ban, it won't apply to foreigners who A will ignore it and B not be nicked anyway, similar to how they blast flat out through average speed camera sections forcing everyone else aside, the anti lorry car drivers will then only have the foreigners to complain about and risk being labelled as 'ists..:-)
Given that we're supposed to be in a "technological age", you'd think it would be easy for speed cameras to (almost) instantly take the reg details of, say, a foreign lorry or car, then pass the info to a "quick review officer" and ALL ports/airports/car rental firms with a "hold" order, then the officer would quickly say "yea or nay" after a review and therefore the vehicle would be prevented from leaving (once identified by APNR cameras [or other ID system] at the port/airport/car rental firm) by staff (the car rental firm would either automatically add on the charge (if applicable and not an offence that required a court appearance) plus admin fee, which they could only appeal when at their exit point airport/port (and would be charged additional fees if they lost), only being able to leave the country once the matter was settled (or arrested for a serious offence).
Non-rental vehicles would be impounded (at the owner's expense) unless someone could be found to take it home (for detained individuals). Special courts/police centres could be set up at these ports/airports for dispensing speedy justice as was shown after the 2011 riots.
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Given that we're supposed to be in a "technological age", you'd think it would be easy for speed cameras to (almost) instantly take the reg details of, say, a foreign lorry or car, then pass the info to a "quick review officer"
Good solution and simple, but is i suspect not a big enough earner for the effort and cost involved and likely to bring the holding areas at ports to a standstill, then theres the diplomatic siutation when someone with the right connections gets stopped.
I'm sure once someone important enough is affected by errant foreigners then a massive knee jerk reaction follows, mr and mrs average here (us) don't count as terribly important to our rulers except when our vote is required.
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There is no standard of driving anymore by majority of drivers that includes cyclists and motorcycle riders whom spend most of the time riding on the wrong side of the road.
Cyclists dont even look where they are going and if they bump into your door mirror blame you for being there and in the way,thats without the fact they dont use the lanes put in specially for them.
I dont have any problems with lorry drivers personally, I used to drive a large van so know what they have to put up with from motorists,even though the motorist doesnt see it
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No problem with the no overtaking-just put in place a requirement that any such manoeuvre must be completed within a certain time.
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I think a better plan would be to ban all motorists, lorryists (is that even a proper word?), and motor cyclists altogether, except for me! That would make the roads a lot safer.....
Edited by brum on 13/07/2013 at 18:43
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Simple solution, confine lorristas or whatever you choose to call them to the inside lane, NO OVERTAKING, they can then chug along to their hearts content chatting on their CB's etc without interfering with proper "motoristas" who have to get somewhere important.
Any movement into an outside lane should result in a lifetime ban.
Simples.....
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'Scuse me, but.......I see no mention of an 'M' assocaited with the A12?
SO, why are lorries [aka wagons] doing 56mph on their limiters?
Oh yes, that'll be because of zero enforcement on the part of our Constabularies?
The reason?
Probably a finance issue, but consider this.....whilst tthe lorry is exceeding its speed limit, bowling along with inches to spare either side of its swaying trailer ..it's busy slowing down the rest of us.
Enforcement, or lack of, I feel really is down to a case of 'expediency.'
If we all go slower, there's less for Chief Constables to worry about.
And as for other vehicles travelling slower than the lorry limit, ..SO WHAT?
It's a Public Highway, not a personal race track.....and being an A road, can have tractors, flocks of sheep, cyclists...and me, roamng freely [within the Law] all over it!
If that upsets the commercialists amongst you...stick the lorries on a train!
I speak as a PSV/LGV driver, LGV instructor, LGV assessor, but now doing better things with my life... who is thoroughly disappointed at the appalling driving standards displayed by far too many lorry drivers.....and I don't hold modern technology as an excuse for such cavalier driving attitudes.
And unwritten rules are just so much conveneient boswellox!
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I might be in a minority but I think a 'hidden' problem on motorways is car drivers who are so terrified of being thought of as middle lane hogs that they pull back into lane 1 at every possible opportunity, only to pull out again a few seconds later, possibly slowing down traffic in lane 2. The new law on lane-hogging will only make this worse.
If the motorway is busy and there's lots of slow-moving traffic in lane 1, I think it's OK to stay out in land 2 provided you either keep up with the traffic in front or keep up to the speed limit if it's safe to do so.
In an ideal world, most long distance freight should go by rail (and I speak as an ex lorry driver!) but that's not likely to happen. Lorries might all be limited to 56 mph, but when it comes to an uphill gradient, one lorry might run out of puff earlier than another. A following driver, if they stay behind the slower vehicle, will have to slow down unnecesarily, and possibly drop a gear or two, which might mean losing more speed than the lorry in front, which might have different gearing and engine torque characteristics! Over a long journey losing time like this can mount up, and it costs money. If a driver finds himeself in a situation where it's taking longer to overtake another lorry than he thought it would, easing up, dropping back and pulling over to lane 1 will mean losing momentum and, again, probably slowing down more than the vehicle he was hoping to overtake. Been there, done that!
Edited by Sofa Spud on 14/07/2013 at 00:11
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A point that seems to be being missed here by many is that on the A12 there shouldn't be ANY lorries being driven on the limiter as the HGV limit on a Dual carriageway A road is 50 mph. Therefore lorries shouldn't be having problems overtaking any other lorry travelling below the legal speed limit as they should have 6mph headroom.
Mind you LGV's such as Transits with GVW over 2 tonne shouldn't be doing more than 60 on the A12 either.
By the time we've got all the lorries and LGVs doing their maximum speed then, with the number of them on the A12, speeds of 70 mph will be but a dream.....
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And when you eventually get past Ipswich,the A12 becomes a winding country lane(except for a few short stretches).
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What we have here, is a good example of the conflict between 'urban myth' [ie, drivers doing what THEY want to do].....and the reality of the Law.
When we have a conflict between issues of ''time-is-money'', or ''driver's hours'....and what is actually the Law, we see the former looking for all sorts of excuses to justify their actions...to justify why they should be allowed to flout the Law.
It's the same with 'speeding'!
Folk like to dirve faster than permitted.....so seek to justify their selfishness [for that is what it is in reality]....by denigrating all those who chose to drive within the Law, and who, at the same time create obstruction [in the non-legal sense] and inconvenience for those who seek to operate outside the Law.
Those who drive correctly always get in the way of those who don't.
From my viewpoint, that's tough!
This country has probably got the most lax, easy-going set of traffic legislation of any country in the world.
Right across the whole country there is a constant application of discretion.
Whether it is used to hide a lack of resources, or simply to appeal to popular opinion, is irrelevant.
[we have speed limit enforcement with what some would say very lenient trigger points...very lenient for what is an absolute offence.!]
[I refer to the ACPO guidelines, which many drivers think is a regulation..rather than guidelines]
We have the 'give way' rule which isn't designed to 'stop us moving'....we basically have an enforcement system whereby...'if nothing untoward happens, ignore the offences'...
Compare with France? Or, Germany? Or any country that allows direct access to the driver's wallet when 'stopped?'
As a result of this country's lax attitude towards enforcement, we have whole generations of road users who are convinced they can do what they please, if it is inconvenient not to do so.
Mr Toad is deemed OK.
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"This country has probably got the most lax, easy-going set of traffic legislation of any country in the world."
You may find a holiday in Egypt quite instructive in this respect.
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And in respect of HGV speed limits, I'm sure HGV's going down Ilsley Hill on the A34 somehow manage to get near to 70 mph ... there is going to be monumental smash there within the next twelve months. You saw it here first ...
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And in respect of HGV speed limits, I'm sure HGV's going down Ilsley Hill on the A34 somehow manage to get near to 70 mph ... there is going to be monumental smash there within the next twelve months. You saw it here first ...
I'm not sure why this is still a problem on newer lorries.
If my lorry goes over about 57 mph for more than a few hundred yards it triggers an automatic infringement on the digi card and i'm in the dog house (despite the legal motorway limit being 60mph for the vehicle type), lorries regd after 06 are fitted with digital tachographs not the old disc type and these overspeed are automatically triggered and recorded.
I suspect and believe from what i hear that VOSA are going to be taking far more interest in companies that fail to take action against regular overspeeding so i think this will self regulate itself in quite a short period, well for UK mainland registered and operated vehicles anyway some companies and those of dubious repute will be the very last to comply, arguably the ones who need looking at the most but never fear despite some claims to the contrary VOSA are far from idiots and they do know who is and who isn't compliant.
By the way purely out of interest my lorry will reach the heady heights of 55mph, but i set the speed at 51mph to make significant gains in fuel economy...that also means the few times i come up behind a slower vehicle i have at least 6 mph in hand to overtake with and i do not get involved with the elephant racing that annoys so many including me.
Edited by gordonbennet on 14/07/2013 at 12:56
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A
Edited by Ben 10 on 14/07/2013 at 13:37
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Also on the subject of limiters.
I had a Royal Mail artic up my rear filling the rear window. So pretty close.
I was in lane 1. And doing at least 75mph. A casual pump of the brake pedal caused a flash of his/her main beam, and then a sharp move to lane 2 around me. And continued in that lane overtaking everyone in front of me.
There are some good LGVers and there are a lot of bad arrogant ones, with poor skills.
Oh and just because you put an indicator on as I'm approaching the trailer doesn't give you the right to pull out in front of me. You might get a better reaction from drivers if you give us a chance to see, allow and adjust our speed.
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Oh and just because you put an indicator on as I'm approaching the trailer doesn't give you the right to pull out in front of me. You might get a better reaction from drivers if you give us a chance to see, allow and adjust our speed.
That's a general observation - not a lorry specific one. I've seen far more car drivers assume that because they've put their indicators on, overatking traffic will slow down/make space as appropriate.
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I have to say that it's the exception rather than the rule to see a large lorry being driven badly on motorways and dual carriageways. Of course, one does notice instances of bad driving more than one notices good driving. I don't have a problem with lorries overtaking in lane 2, even on a 2 lane road dual-carriageway - OK, it might be a bit annoying, but I don't think the drivers are doing anything wrong. After all, on a single carriageway car drivers are often stuck behind LGV.s, which shouldn't be doing over 40 mph on a single carriageway, although that limit never seems to be enforced these days.
Apart from tailgaters, which come in all shapes and sizes, the worst problem on motorways is, when going down an 'on' sliproad', the following car decides to overtake just before you pull on, blocking you in on the slip road.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 14/07/2013 at 16:51
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I agree that's irritating, SS, but I confess to have been occasionally the 'following car' - in the outside lane of the slip road, overtaking someone going considerably slower, when that someone suddenly accelerates. You either have to pull back or overtake quickly to avoid two of you getting to the motorway at the same time.
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I never have a problem with lorries; it's very few lorry drivers that cause motorway issues; I drive alongside them every day as they make for Heysham port. 'White van' drivers are by far the worst. I also find lorry drivers much more careful and courteous on the roads than car drivers when I'm out cycling.
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Bobbin, you would if you went on the A14 every day.
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The only reason our narrow congested arterials like the dual carriageway A14 and the single carriageway A43...and any other A number you care to think of don't clot up even more than they do already is because so many HGVs thankfully ignore the 50mph and 40mph speed limits that pertain.
It is shameful that this pragmatic lawlessness more suited to a banana republic is necessary to keep our UK business and leisure industries operational.
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There are verious reasons why vehicles could find themselves side by side at the same speed, wind change, the overtaking vehicle coming to a gradient, or the vehicle overtaking finding speed as it comes to a flatter part of the road for example.
The problem with the speed limiters is that it causes difficulty for both the HGV Driver and other vehicles. They have not reduced accidents, in fact I would argue the speed limiter increases driver fetigue.
I was driving HGV (well at the time I was running my own transport business) when they were brought in, driving then became a chore, far more stressful and tiring.
However maybe there is an alternative solution to banning HGVs from the second lane, how about bringing the speed limit down to 50 so then it would not matter if trucks are side by side
. I can not believe I am suggesting a speed cut but if it such a problem!
Driving HGVs is a crapy job, that pays crap wages, HGV drivers have poor facilities and are under constant pressure and harasment
Edited by skittles on 15/07/2013 at 00:41
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Driving HGVs is a crapy job, that pays crap wages, HGV drivers have poor facilities and are under constant pressure and harasment
That makes it okay to drive like a knob then.
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That makes it okay to drive like a knob then.
Oh dear, i tried i really tried to give balanced replies to this thread, and an explanation of my views and observations over so many years seeing changes first hand that could have gone on for pages what is and has happened, but as can be seen from this gem and a few others that stereotypes bigotry and prejudice still rule.
Us old hands often refer to ourselves as 'scum of the earth lorry drivers' in a sourly ironic way, that one jibe from Jamie might give those who don't think too much about the world of the lorry driver an insight as to why we ironically refer to ourselves thus..
Jamie, you have singularly failed to offer any reasoned replies or counter arguments to many of the valid points that have been made in this thread, and you have just ended it for me.
Avant, please feel free to delete all my replies to this thread if you wish, its been a complete and utter waste of time and effort for me and many of us when such a response appears from the OP, when we took the time and genuinly tried to answer fairly and honestly what we might have thought was a reasonable question that could provide an intelligent debate, got caught out there didn't we.
Maybe retitle it suitably so perfect people and other assorted hypocrites who can do no wrong and make no errors know where they can post their silly juvenile daily mailesque abuse.
Incidentally Skittles the poster a couple above was wrong, not all HGV jobs are crappy or pay crap wages, there are those who have had and continue to have decent long term jobs despite the pain of the recession and oversupply of cheap often poor foreign labour, and still enjoy the work despite having to share the road with bigots ready to offer their expert advice at every opportunity, and we still take a pride in our work.
Skittles is right in the respect that there has become a culture of low pay, and without generalising there is an element of you get what you pay for, good people never have come cheap.
Thats me out of this thread, thank goodness some of you may think..:-)
Edited by gordonbennet on 15/07/2013 at 09:17
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Driving HGVs is a crapy job, that pays crap wages, HGV drivers have poor facilities and are under constant pressure and harasment
That makes it okay to drive like a knob then.
And you are who to judge?
Fact is the situation was created by poloticians not lorry drivers, they are just trying to do a job and do not need more pressures and complications.
If you think that an overtaking ban is a good idea why are you compaining that you can not overtake?
If you doo not like it take a bus or a train? if you ban trucks off the roads tomorrow the world would come to a grinding halt, if they banned cars there might be some termoil for a while but the world would adjus
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... there shouldn't be ANY lorries being driven on the limiter as the HGV limit on a Dual carriageway A road is 50 mph. Therefore lorries shouldn't be having problems overtaking any other lorry travelling below the legal speed limit as they should have 6mph headroom.
So does the legal limit not apply while overtaking? Don't follow this argument ...
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All too often road users don't pay enough attention to what's going on around them, anticipating (as far as possible) what others want/are doing and how to make progress by hindering others the least (if at all). I try (as far as possible) to overtake so as not to slow down traffic in the faster lanes, even sometimes doing so by overtaking (on dual carriageways/motorways) on right-hand bends so that (like on an athletics track) the overtaking lane is the shorter distance and thus you don't need to go that much faster, or the manouvre takes less time.
Andy - are you seriously suggesting that a right-hand bend saves a significant amount of overtaking distance? I don't believe you. If it did I suggest you would not be able to see far enough to overtake safely - although I have seen some mad bikers do it I suppose.
The basic message of the OP is that no-one - lorry, car, whatever - should attempt to overtake knowing that it could take about a mile of road and cause an annoyed tailback.
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Not just Germany, very common in much of Europe. Also not just peak periods, some roads have permanent no overtaking for HGVs, particularly common on uphill stretches.
>> Are the Germans such better drivers?
Probably and not just them. One thing you notice on the continent is that even when overtaking is permitted, they tend not to bother. They'll all sit in a queue as long as it's going within spit of what they could achieve. If one pulls out to overtake another, it'll have a very obvious speed advantage.
If you do ever see a truck overtaking another with a speed difference of "walking pace", you can bet that the outside one will have UK plates on it!
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This all goes back to the "everyone on the road is an idiot except for me " frame of mind and usually the problems all stem from the one common denominator - the person who thinks everyone else is an idiot.
I was stuck in traffic on the M25 for an hour the other day, Not because of "lorry drivings" but, because of car drivers that decided that because they could not continue on their journey of the M25, Then nor should those people who wanted to continue onto the A21 so they used all 3 lanes to queue for the M25 going off to the left.
Lorry driving is a thankless job, Everyone thinks that lorry drivers are idiots and the scum of the road and yet they are cut up by car drivers all the time and rarely bat an eyelid, Which is more than can be said for road raging car drivers.
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Just an observation, do lorries save fuel by sitting behind another? If so, it would seem wasteful to overtake.
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Some companies have had their trucks restricted to lower speeds in order to save fuel, A company I worked for had them restricted to 52mph some years ago in an attempt to lower the fuel bill.
I noticed a Sainsbury truck the other day with a sticker on the rear saying it had a 50mph maximum speed. So maybe they have restricted them too.
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Why do you think it's 56mph? Not 55 or 50 or 60? Because the rule was invented by foreign bureaucrats in kph and that's the nearest equivalent. Now you might think being ruled by unelected foreigners is ok but I don't.
Apols if this was mentioned above.
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just as well Bruxelles hasn't tried to change the way speed is recorded generally in the UK, eh?
Imagine, the 30mph urban NSL becoming a 40 kph limit?
Back in the late 1970's,I had a wee job that incluede drivng a [15 tonne?] D-series Ford fridge.
This had a maximum speed [ie, on the governor, no limiters then]....of approx [to nearest MPH] 47mph.
I had a regular run over the M62 to St Helens.......got in everyone's way going downhill [even out-of-cog], whizzed past everybody going uphill!
Got up a few noses, did I...fitted an OOOHgahh horn to counter the inevitable air horns...[they'd hoot at me downhill, I'd oohgah back going uphill!] No power steering....4, maybe 5 gears....no heater that worked.....but a nice foreman at Lowfield Cool who used to stack a box with pork chops and yoghurt for me, as I never missed his trunker. [used to carry the first M&S chilled meat products]...
Went back bus driving as soon as an opening occurred...paid a lot more per hour, without the long hours, if I didn't want them.
I suggest all modern young drivers be compelled to drive a mk 1 Transit diesel luton down the motorway...that'd teach them the art of overtaking. [and the frustration?}
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Just see that lamp.....sway ;-)
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