Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver

I’m looking for a small city type car that I can use to pop into town and park easily, and that my 17 year old can learn to drive in.

I have a hybrid Renault Arkana as my main vehicle, so a small manual gearbox car is all I’m looking for, A/C required. Hopefully when he’s passed his test, he will take it on, so must be very low insurance group too. Budget is £3500 max. Location between Salisbury and Southampton.

I’ve been trawling autotrader and looking mainly at Ford Ka models. I realise they are very similar to a Fiat 500 but I get the feeling he would think them too ‘girly’. Having carried mot history checks on lots now, there seems to be a common theme on the Ford and Fiat that subframe/suspension/brake pipe corrosion is becoming an issue. Is this a widespread common fault in these cars does anyone know? 58 plate through to 14 plate models all seem to be afflicted. Or is the nature of the beast with cars of this age?

looking at the Peugeot/Citroen/Toyota trio, they also seem to see similar issues, not quite as prevalent though. Son number 1 has the Citroen C1 which I know son number 2 doesn’t like…so least interested in one of these.

Traders seem to try and ‘hide’ the corrosion under grease or similar according to mot history checks. How big an issue is a corroded subframe? Car in bin time, simple weld repair, or expensive job?

I’m guessing a well cared for private car is the best hope of a decent one?

Nissan Pixo/Suzuki Alto also possibles - just less with a/c about.

Any Thoughts/ advice welcomed ??.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Xileno

The subframe is a structural part of the car, an advisory this MOT will potentially be a failure in a year or two.

If it's a very localised bit of corrosion then it could be welded if done competently.

Replacement is possible but not economically worthwhile in most cases.

I don't think a private car would be any better, one can wash and polish the paintwork every week but that won't stop the subframe rusting. Probably a better guide would be mileage. The lower the mileage then potentially lower exposure to road salt which I suspect is the real killer here.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver
Thanks for the info - history of corroded subframes sounds like a definite avoid red flag..

Edited by japdriver on 04/08/2025 at 16:00

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - elekie&a/c doctor
Not much wrong with the fiat 500 . Your budget might just get you into a facelift model 2016 onwards. Stick with the 1.2 petrol engine with a manual 5 speed transmission. Just watch out for electric gremlins and noisy gearbox.
Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver
I’ve no objection to the Fiat, seem to be a number that have had replacement clutches and gearboxes. I’m guessing that is just a result of being driven by less experienced drivers rather than inherent weakness in the gearboxes.
I’m just not sure my son would drive one. He’s already said they are ‘girly’ cars - I’d have one without issue. (I’m old enough image doesn’t bother me!)
Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - elekie&a/c doctor
The corrosion at the rear is usually brake pipes , handbrake cables and brackets. They do have inherent faults with the manual transmission. Usually bearing failure.
Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Chris M

It's been a few years since we were in sons/learning to drive territory so things may have changed. The trouble with the cars you are looking at is they are typical learner/first car choices and that puts the price up. Will insurance be much more expensive if you go up a notch into Focus territory (obviously keeping to the lower power engine options)?

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver

Thank you, useful info. Anything that flags corrosion I’ll discount and look elsewhere.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Adampr

We have a Renault Twingo 0.9 tce. Not much to insure, ridiculously easy to to park and quite an entertaining drive. My wife, who is normally entirely indifferent to cars, loves it

They are 'cute' but can look quite stylish in the right colour and trim.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - John F
. I’m just not sure my son would drive one. He’s already said they are ‘girly’ cars - I’d have one without issue. (I’m old enough image doesn’t bother me!)

Sounds as though picky child needs reminding beggars can't be choosers. Back in the '90s my teenage sons were supplied with a brace of ancient Peugeot 309s - c. £400 each. They were grateful.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - daveyjp

Once you get to 10 years plus your approach is sound, forget the badge and find something with an MOT which shows it isn't falling to pieces.

For info my daughter of similar age went for a Suzuki Swift, it is younger, an auto and above your budget, but I see plenty around that are 15+ years old e.g

https://www.thatchammotorcompany.co.uk/used-cars/search-results?make=SUZUKI&vehicleType=cars

Also don't get too hung up on insurance group, it will have very little bearing on policy costs for a 17/18 year old male.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Engineer Andy

Once you get to 10 years plus your approach is sound, forget the badge and find something with an MOT which shows it isn't falling to pieces.

For info my daughter of similar age went for a Suzuki Swift, it is younger, an auto and above your budget, but I see plenty around that are 15+ years old e.g

https://www.thatchammotorcompany.co.uk/used-cars/search-results?make=SUZUKI&vehicleType=cars

Also don't get too hung up on insurance group, it will have very little bearing on policy costs for a 17/18 year old male.

As long as the OP avoid 'nippy+' engined sportier vehicles of that size. It might be worth looking around for elderly locals who do little driving but really look after their pride and joy, especially those who've garaged it, and hopefully such cars won't exhibit much rust, especially on the sub-frame and important (safety and terminal to the car) bodywork areas (e.g. near seat belt mounting points) that could develop into MOT failures.

If the OP wants a manual, that will significantly lower the price or get them a much newer (and hopefully in far better condition) car, as small autos (read mainly TC and some non Jatco CVTs) are really in demand at the moment for their combo or easy or use, size and (for an auto) good mpg and thus command significant price premiums over manuals.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver

Once you get to 10 years plus your approach is sound, forget the badge and find something with an MOT which shows it isn't falling to pieces.

For info my daughter of similar age went for a Suzuki Swift, it is younger, an auto and above your budget, but I see plenty around that are 15+ years old e.g

https://www.thatchammotorcompany.co.uk/used-cars/search-results?make=SUZUKI&vehicleType=cars

Also don't get too hung up on insurance group, it will have very little bearing on policy costs for a 17/18 year old male.

As long as the OP avoid 'nippy+' engined sportier vehicles of that size. It might be worth looking around for elderly locals who do little driving but really look after their pride and joy, especially those who've garaged it, and hopefully such cars won't exhibit much rust, especially on the sub-frame and important (safety and terminal to the car) bodywork areas (e.g. near seat belt mounting points) that could develop into MOT failures.

If the OP wants a manual, that will significantly lower the price or get them a much newer (and hopefully in far better condition) car, as small autos (read mainly TC and some non Jatco CVTs) are really in demand at the moment for their combo or easy or use, size and (for an auto) good mpg and thus command significant price premiums over manuals.

Definitely need a petrol manual and definitely won’t be anything remotely sporty! As I’m going to be using the car myself for town trips, small size was a desired quality. Swifts and similar are getting bigger than the Ka’s and Fiat 500’s as they’re superminis rather than city cars, so really getting too big for what I’m after. Bonus with small City cars is a lot are £20/35 tax, which is always helpful.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - edlithgow

As long as the OP avoid 'nippy+' engined sportier vehicles of that size. It might be worth looking around for elderly locals who do little driving but really look after their pride and joy, especially those who've garaged it, and hopefully such cars won't exhibit much rust, especially on the sub-frame and important (safety and terminal to the car) bodywork areas (e.g. near seat belt mounting points) that could develop into MOT failures.

I doubt the "looking after the pride and joy" factor will make much difference to the sort of significant corrosion threat that the OP is concerned about, since people (and especially old people...er...except me, of course) generally dont do anything about that, though they may AUTOGRIM their sundays away topsides.

Apart from this being just a general "people are strange" thing, which they are (and especially old people...er...except me, of course) old people tend to lack the mobility that might facilitate crawling around preventing structural rrust, and might be especially averse to the possible mess and smells, (Though I wouldn't be betting that the OP's son will be doing much rust prevention either)

Old people may do lower mileage though, and might tend to drive less in bad weather, which I suppose might reduce exposure to road salt a bit

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - bathtub tom

I doubt the "looking after the pride and joy" factor will make much difference to the sort of significant corrosion threat that the OP is concerned about, since people (and especially old people...er...except me, of course) generally dont do anything about that, though they may AUTOGRIM their sundays away topsides.

On the rare occasion this 'old person' cleans the car, I probably spend more time hosing down the underside than cleaning the rest. I did once polish and wax it in my ten years of ownership.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - bathtub tom

I’ve been trawling autotrader and looking mainly at Ford Ka models. I realise they are very similar to a Fiat 500 but I get the feeling he would think them too ‘girly’.

Don't pander to his likes/dislikes. Get the most suitable.

My first was a bubble car, one daughter had a Škoda Estelle, the other a Metro!

Sold a Corsa to a couple for their daughter, who only wanted to know if it had a CD player, so I put a Max Bygraves CD in it!

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - mcb100
Been through this twice in the past 4 years, and I did discover that the obvious first cars (Corsa, Fiesta, etc) are more expensive to insure, presumably because they are obvious first cars and are involved in more accidents.
My two ended up in a Clio (52 registration and doing good service) and a Honda Jazz (54 registration and auto).
I did see a tongue in cheek article this week saying that the car that will likely outlast mankind on this planet is a series one Jazz. The cockroach of small hatchbacks.
www.topgear.com/car-news/satire/exclusive-futurist...z
Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Engineer Andy
Been through this twice in the past 4 years, and I did discover that the obvious first cars (Corsa, Fiesta, etc) are more expensive to insure, presumably because they are obvious first cars and are involved in more accidents. My two ended up in a Clio (52 registration and doing good service) and a Honda Jazz (54 registration and auto). I did see a tongue in cheek article this week saying that the car that will likely outlast mankind on this planet is a series one Jazz. The cockroach of small hatchbacks. www.topgear.com/car-news/satire/exclusive-futurist...z

Though be careful for the pre-2008 (I think) Jazzes, as they suffer from the same security issue for stealing the CAT that certain Toyota Aurises and others do from the same era.

I also wasn't a fan of their overly firm ride. Other than that and the lack of pace, lovely little, very practical, reliable cars.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - elekie&a/c doctor
Suzuki swift is a good shout, but early models suffer manual transmission issues
Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver

A jolly Jazz may be a decent shout in fairness. Not a prime ‘nippers’ car so probably cheaper on insurance than the Corsa/Fiesta duo, Partly why I was looking at Ka’s and Fiat 500’s as they are not the usual dare I say boy racer cars!

More research required!

Edited by japdriver on 04/08/2025 at 19:11

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Steveieb

Don’t overlook the Yaris Mk1 . My DIL s Y reg dating back to 1999 is still going strong and she refuses to replace it . Early ones are Japanese built which is always a plus IMHO and the auto is TQ.

So 26 years of daily use and with routine oil changes every 12 months it’s going to be hard to find a replacement.

Air con , sunroof , CD player all work perfectly . Routine key battery replacement s which she does herself

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - badbusdriver

A jolly Jazz may be a decent shout in fairness. Not a prime ‘nippers’ car so probably cheaper on insurance than the Corsa/Fiesta duo, Partly why I was looking at Ka’s and Fiat 500’s as they are not the usual dare I say boy racer cars!

More research required!

If considering the Jazz, you ought to also consider the Nissan Note.

As was noted earlier, insurance groups are actually a bit of a red herring. However, as well as not being a typical "youth" car, the 2nd gen Note in n/a 1.2 form sits in group 6. Also £20 per year tax. It certainly isn't a big car, but it is about a half meter longer than the 500 and Ka (and 20cm longer than the Jazz).

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - paul 1963

Nothing much to fear with a looked after Jazz apart from the image thing, Nissan Note is potentially more appealing to the younger driver along with the Swift.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - badbusdriver

As I’m going to be using the car myself for town trips, small size was a desired quality. Swifts and similar are getting bigger than the Ka’s and Fiat 500’s as they’re superminis rather than city cars, so really getting too big for what I’m after. Bonus with small City cars is a lot are £20/35 tax, which is always helpful.

Swift's have always been bigger than a 500 or (500 based) Ka. But since 2010, Swifts have stayed more or less the same length.

My suggestion, if having as short a car as poss* is that important, would be the Toyota IQ. Being a Toyota, reliability is a given, but unlike the Aygo (and its French cousins) which are just very small cars, some really innovative design solutions (along with a substantial sum of money) were poured into the IQ in order to absolutely maximise the amount of usable interior space possible in such a small car. It is theoretically possible to seat 4 in an IQ, but that requires the driver to not be that tall and/or be willing to compromise their own driving position. Otherwise, best to think of it as being a 3+1 seater!. The dashboard is designed to be as compact as possible on the passenger side which allows the front passenger seat to be mounted further forward that the drivers seat. This in turn allows an adult to sit behind the front passenger in reasonable comfort. It really is a remarkable piece of design and is one of my favourites cars because of this (also more than half a meter shorter than a 500). At your budget, there isn't going to be a huge availability but, being a Toyota, you don't need to worry too much about mileage. Engines are either the Daihatsu sourced 1.0 3 cyl with just under 70bhp or the Toyota 1.33 with just under 100bhp, the latter is the better choice of longer/higher speeds journeys are likely but there won't be as much to choose from.

*And assuming two seats are a compromise too far, otherwise a 2nd gen (all first gen are auto) Smart Fortwo would be the 'shortest' option!

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - japdriver

As I’m going to be using the car myself for town trips, small size was a desired quality. Swifts and similar are getting bigger than the Ka’s and Fiat 500’s as they’re superminis rather than city cars, so really getting too big for what I’m after. Bonus with small City cars is a lot are £20/35 tax, which is always helpful.

Swift's have always been bigger than a 500 or (500 based) Ka. But since 2010, Swifts have stayed more or less the same length.

My suggestion, if having as short a car as poss* is that important, would be the Toyota IQ. Being a Toyota, reliability is a given, but unlike the Aygo (and its French cousins) which are just very small cars, some really innovative design solutions (along with a substantial sum of money) were poured into the IQ in order to absolutely maximise the amount of usable interior space possible in such a small car. It is theoretically possible to seat 4 in an IQ, but that requires the driver to not be that tall and/or be willing to compromise their own driving position. Otherwise, best to think of it as being a 3+1 seater!. The dashboard is designed to be as compact as possible on the passenger side which allows the front passenger seat to be mounted further forward that the drivers seat. This in turn allows an adult to sit behind the front passenger in reasonable comfort. It really is a remarkable piece of design and is one of my favourites cars because of this (also more than half a meter shorter than a 500). At your budget, there isn't going to be a huge availability but, being a Toyota, you don't need to worry too much about mileage. Engines are either the Daihatsu sourced 1.0 3 cyl with just under 70bhp or the Toyota 1.33 with just under 100bhp, the latter is the better choice of longer/higher speeds journeys are likely but there won't be as much to choose from.

*And assuming two seats are a compromise too far, otherwise a 2nd gen (all first gen are auto) Smart Fortwo would be the 'shortest' option!

Toyota IQ is a good shout - never sat in one but they do look interesting. Not that many about, but I’m in no rush, so I can have a good look around. Smart four two would also be a fun option - definitely not many manual gearbox models about though - most are the horrible clunky auto - he needs a manual as that is what his test will be taken in.
Being really small isn’t essential, it’s just for my own use I want something that I can park easily in tight multi storey car parks, and not worry about it picking up car park dings from inconsiderate others.

Ford Ka etc - Small city car - runabout/learner car - Adampr

In case you missed it (I posted it in a weird place somehow), worth looking at the Renault Twingo. We have one and it is absurdly easy to park