The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Xileno

In this thread you may:

Ask any question for EVs which you need help, advice, suggestions or discuss relevant issues.

Discuss articles that have been hosted elsewhere (this may be reviewed after a while to see how it's working)

NB Some EV subjects may be more appropriate to continue in a separate thread. An example might be if someone is looking to buy a new car and giving an account of test-driving several ICE and EV vehicles. Another example might be if someone is giving an update on the EV they have bought and wants to feedback their experiences to others. Moderators will use their discretion in situations like these.

Rules:
No or minimal politics
No arguments or slanging matches
Nothing which we think is not following the spirit of the thread
Nothing that risks the future of this site (please see forum terms and conditions)

Any of the above are likely to be deleted. If the thread becomes difficult to maintain it will be removed.

When a thread gets to a certain size it will be made read-only and a new Volume created.

This is Volume 16. Previous Volumes will not be deleted but will get locked.

A list of previous Volumes can be found HERE



PLEASE NOTE:

When posting a NEW issue for discussion, please "Reply to" the first message in this thread, i.e. this one. This keeps each question in its own separate segment and stops each new question from getting mixed up in amongst existing questions. Also please remember to change the subject header.

Edited by Xileno on 14/06/2025 at 19:46

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - SLO76
Despite initial reservations and doubts, we’re on EV no two and both of us are fully convinced. The Leaf 40kwh was a great first ev and at current low prices they are amazing value. Practical, cheap to buy and cheap to run.

The ID3 is a big step up regarding a range, handling and interior packaging. It’s a much more modern car, and when comparing it with a 62kwh Leaf it’s not that much more money used. Highly recommend - so far.
The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Steveieb

Glad to see you chose a European EV rather than one of cheaper Chinese versions about to flood the market in the West SLO .

But once we relinquish to Motor industry to the Chinese it could spell the end of manufacturing in the West all in the persuit of “Net Zero “

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Terry W

Net zero has nothing to do with it. Consumers vote with their wallets and are responsible for the commercial success of Chinese products.

The Chinese are entirely capable of producing cars (and all other machinery) to competitive standards - civil and military aircraft, space stations, industrial machinery etc.

They succeed because their costs (labour, energy) are low, and clear strategic goals are set at top political levels which means that they act fast and coherently.

Whether high speed rail, EV battery plants, power stations etc etc - just compare to typical UK performance where a major investment programme (eg: HS2) has taken decades of wrangling and is still not finished, Sizewell C barely started after 15 years etc.

Most UK GDP comes from services (hairdressers, curry houses, lawyers, financial services, media, healthcare, education etc etc) so that manufacturing provides only a small part of national wealth and jobs - less than 10%.

The UK has seen manufacturing decimated over the last 40 years - quite simply too slow and too expensive. Whether we should sacrifice H&S and employment rights legislation, planning consultation and democracy in pursuit of lower costs is another matter.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Steveieb

Interesting comment Terry but my post referred to the West in general and not just the UK !

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Engineer Andy
Despite initial reservations and doubts, we’re on EV no two and both of us are fully convinced. The Leaf 40kwh was a great first ev and at current low prices they are amazing value. Practical, cheap to buy and cheap to run. The ID3 is a big step up regarding a range, handling and interior packaging. It’s a much more modern car, and when comparing it with a 62kwh Leaf it’s not that much more money used. Highly recommend - so far.

The problem is that if manufacturers and lease / PCP financing companies want to stay in business and make a profit (huge depreciation of EVs), they cannot sustain the level of new sales because the second hand market just isn't there - its flooded with EVs few people want, even with that big depreciation.

At some point (and soon), finance companies will start to raise PCP / lease monthly rates to realistic levels to make a profit on disposal of 3yo EVs, and maybe even higher to recoup losses from the last couple of years, plus the next two or so as cars they sold under agreements from 2023 to now come off those deals.

Manufacturers too will not be able to sustain their price cuts, because they are either subsidising them from their own profits and/or from jacking up the price of ICE vehicles. Lower overall sales, losses per vehicle (or minuscule profits) and rising costs are not sustainable over the medium to long term to enable long term investment decisions and pay out decent dividends.

Eventually, governments will have to abandon the artificial deadlines and sales targets and just let the whole thing develop naturally as the market dictates. Either that or watch the entire industry and possibly disastrous effects on entire economies occur within a few years at best. The 'Net Zero' stuff (similar) is also lined in to this, making the situation much worse, as recent events in Spain and other parts of continental Europe showed.

There may not be a buyers' market for second hand EVs soon if it naturally corrects via one means or another.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - Terry W

The problem is that if manufacturers and lease / PCP financing companies want to stay in business and make a profit (huge depreciation of EVs), they cannot sustain the level of new sales because the second hand market just isn't there - its flooded with EVs few people want, even with that big depreciation.

The s/h market will find a level at which it functions effectively - it's what markets do. IMHO as EVs and charging facilities become commonplace, fears of range anxiety, battery longevity etc etc will diminish.

At some point (and soon), finance companies will start to raise PCP / lease monthly rates to realistic levels to make a profit on disposal of 3yo EVs, and maybe even higher to recoup losses from the last couple of years, plus the next two or so as cars they sold under agreements from 2023 to now come off those deals.

Losses made on the disposal of EVs are history - the market will determine the future economic price for PCP and lease. Companies cannot unilaterally recover earlier losses by increasing prices - they would simply become uncompetitive.

Manufacturers too will not be able to sustain their price cuts, because they are either subsidising them from their own profits and/or from jacking up the price of ICE vehicles. Lower overall sales, losses per vehicle (or minuscule profits) and rising costs are not sustainable over the medium to long term to enable long term investment decisions and pay out decent dividends.

Costs of ICE production will broadly increase with inflation. The costs of EVs - particularly batteries - is declining. Current new price of comparable EV and ICE is similar.

In 2-3 years time prices of ICE may be cut as manufacturers want to generate sales of vehicles which will soon be unsaleable using tooling and designs soon to become obsolete.

Eventually, governments will have to abandon the artificial deadlines and sales targets and just let the whole thing develop naturally as the market dictates. Either that or watch the entire industry and possibly disastrous effects on entire economies occur within a few years at best. The 'Net Zero' stuff (similar) is also lined in to this, making the situation much worse, as recent events in Spain and other parts of continental Europe showed.

Transition to EV and abandonment of ICE is a completely sound strategy. Similarly green energy generation vs fossil fuels. It is reasonable to question the timescales and incentives required to make this happen.

Personally I think they should stick with existing deadlines and targets - a new technology with fundamental major benefits to UK PLC (environmental and energy security) needs support to become established.

There may not be a buyers' market for second hand EVs soon if it naturally corrects via one means or another.

A personal aside - last year I bought an ICE SUV. I rejected EV as I make several trips a year where recharging enroute would be required, including southern Spain. Range anxiety, depreciation, dealer networks, battery life were all concerns - individually not enough to sway the conclusion but taken together lead me to ICE.

Were I making the decision today I would probably go EV - in a years time almost certainly.

The Electric Vehicle (EV) thread Vol 16 - alan1302

Eventually, governments will have to abandon the artificial deadlines and sales targets and just let the whole thing develop naturally as the market dictates. Either that or watch the entire industry and possibly disastrous effects on entire economies occur within a few years at best. The 'Net Zero' stuff (similar) is also lined in to this, making the situation much worse, as recent events in Spain and other parts of continental Europe showed.

I think it is too late for that now - manufacturers are already moving away from building ICE in Europe and they will need the EV sales to keep increasing due to the investments that have already been made and also what they have coming out over the next few years for new models - the manufacturers just won't have alternative ICE models available.