Please confirm my advice is sensible | Legal matters | Back Room Forum

Mon 8 Oct 2018 15:27

Please confirm my advice is sensible - thunderbird

Colleague went to look at a car he saw in Autotrader on Saturday. Read well, checked MOT history and paid for a check to see it was cosher and all was fine. Seller was a lady and was happy to take him on a decent run and she let him drive round a deserted industrial area, again all fine.

He made an offer, they negotiated and did a deal. He paid cash, insured it, taxed it and drove it away. very happy it seems.

Yesterday the sellers husband turned up demanding the car back since he claimed it was not his wifes to sell. Claimed it was his car and had been transfered to the wifes name for business purposes. Not wanting to get involved in a domestic my colleague said OK, give me the money and the car is yours, like has often been said there are always plenty more cars. Chap said his wife had paid off her gambling debts with most of the money and then lost the rest trying to recoup the money for the car.

It seems that the chap was getting a bit agitated so the colleagues wife called the Police who believe it or not would not get involved until an assault had taken place. Eventually the chap left threatening legal action.

My advice to my colleague is to hide the car at a relative or friends house until it calms down or goes to court, as far as I am concerned possession is 9/10ths of the law (think that is the old saying) and to simply sit it out, other colleagues agree. I also suggested that he gets a free 1/2 hour with a specialist local solicitor ASAP.

When he got out the V5C it shows the keeper as the seller i.e. the wife and it shows the previous keeper as a person 150 miles away in Scotland (its a two owner car). There is no mention of the sellers husband being a previous keeper as the husband claimed.

So my thoughts based on the above are the sellers husband is a liar and that it is probably a scam. I suspect that this one piece of damming evidence would make any sensible judge well aware of such and throw the case out.

My last piece of advice to him after a few hours thought was to sell the car ASAP after the dust has settled and preferably not privately.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 15:49

Please confirm my advice is sensible - bathtub tom

Doesn't a V5 say that it's not proof of ownership, only a receipt for the purchase of the vehicle is proof of ownership. It may come down to an invoice for the purchase of the car and whose name is on that. I do like your advice to hide it away somewhere else.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 15:50

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Bromptonaut

Not surprised Police wouldn't get involved, unless he reports his wife for theft or there's some real evidence of two of them conspiring in a scam it's a civil matter.

She may or may not be the legal owner, being registered keeper is not proof of ownership. He may have bought the car and put it in her name as main driver. My other half and I have two cars both bought out of joint income. We treat one as hers and other as mine but push>shove it could be more complicated.

Hiding it is a good idea. He should also let his insurer know there is an issue and consider having the locks changed or at least the immobiliser codes 'tumbled' in case milado holds a key and takes it into his head to drive away and hide it at his mates house.....

I think colleague needs proper legal advice and will probably have to pay for it. Local Citizens Advice is worth a call as they may have free 'pro-bono' clinic with either local solicitor or law students under supervision.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 16:16

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Palcouk

As others have said a V5C is not proof of ownership.

Buy a crooklock and make sure there is comprehansive insurance in place

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 16:48

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

Quick chat to your lawyer for some advice over the phone. It’s highly unlikely he has any case against you in law unless the car was reported as stolen before you bought it. My only concern would come if the V5 hasn’d arrived yet in his name. It’s him against his wife.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 17:25

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Miniman777

What a very curious situation. There's an alarm bell ringing in my head tho.....

The deal could be reversed but only if either husband or wife provides the cash originally paid plus IMO, a bit extra for the hassle. But I would not trust a bank transfer given what's gone on, as this smells a bit like a scam. If she has genuinely spent it on gambling debts, then there's no deal to do. Tough on their part and it's up to husband and wife to reconcile. The fact it was in her name 'for business reasons' is also suspect, as surely you can claim tax relief and running costs?

Maybe it was in her name to stop the bailiff's taking it?

Definitely one for the solicitors, and a real niggle the new owner who may have to pay for legal fees he didn't bargain for nor has control over. If kept, I'd also consider buying another registration for it and removing any dealer stickers or other easily identifiable signs, as it may end up getting keyed out of spite. Or worst.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 17:39

Please confirm my advice is sensible - KJP 123

It does appear to be a scam. Buys car on Saturday and by Sunday the money is all spent? Overnight husband finds out his wife has a gambling problem?

On the other hand I would not put much reliance on the fact that the husband’s name was never on the V5. Must be thousands of cars bought by parents and put directly in children’s name. If a gift then child is owner but many parents probably consider that it is still their car with child only having use and ownership never actually discussed. Not sure what a judge would decide when a third party is involved.

Keeping the car elsewhere is good advice if possibly rather inconvenient. Changing the locks could be quite expensive; maybe a very good quality steering lock instead.

Not sure that selling the car on once dust has settled is good advice. Fine if a court decides it is his but less need to do so then. If just no action seems to being taken then he will be selling a car that he knows that there are questions on as to its ownership.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 18:26

Please confirm my advice is sensible - thunderbird

My only concern would come if the V5 hasn'd arrived yet in his name. It’s him against his wife.

I think you miss understand. My colleague has the V5 (we have seen it) and as I said above its in the sellers name i.e. the wife. The husbands name is not on it as the previous keeper and since its only a 2 owner car its a total lie.

He has a signed bill of sale from the lady he bought it from. Obviously no mention on it that the car is not hers to sell.

He has rung his insurance, told them the facts and they have assured him that he would be fully insured should the car be "stolen" unless it was proven he had been involved in any illegal activity and has 2 sets of genuine keys for the car which he has. All he has done is give a lady money for a car, when has that been illegal?

Based on that perhaps he should keep it at home and hope its "stolen", no more worries.

I have advised him to forget Citizens Advice since my experience was rubbish. Bought a faulty lawnmower from B & Q which they said I was responsible to have fixed even though it was under warranty and then claim the money back. I mentioned the Consumer Act and they said it did not apply to them. Spoke to Consumer Advice and they agreed with B & Q. Eventually spoke to the invisible branch manager who apologised and replaced lawnmower.

Colleague thinks he has some sort of legal cover with his home insurance and is checking tonight, if he has I guess they will help.

I appreciate that legally you cannot sell something that is not yours but surely the husband and wife situation is very different from selling something that belongs to a mate without their knowledge. The DVLA site states that:

"When a car is used by a married couple, the ownership of any property is typically classed as joint."

but I guess that does not really help, or does it?

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 19:21

Please confirm my advice is sensible - KJP 123

I have great respect for SLO but I am not sure that reporting it as stolen beforehand is relevant. It was never stolen anyway; only the registered keeper had no right to sell (if you believe story). A company owned car could easily be sold on by its registered keeper, employee, director or partner, and company totally unaware and stolen only in the technical sense of depriving the owner of his property.

I don’t think that V5 in his name matters much for reasons given before. Assuming a civil action, it’s a balance of probabilities and I think sellers would have to prove their case. New owner seems to have bought from registered keeper at registered keeper’s address so has a strong case.

New plate is advice for future; similar to keeping car elsewhere.

You are barking up the wrong tree with the V5; He never said it was registered to him only that he was the owner. Two different things.

By “stolen” I guess you mean taken back by the husband. If it is the husband’s car and your friend has no legal title to it I can’t see insurance company paying out; buying a car from someone with no right to sell it is not an insured risk.

I think that home insurance relates to third party liability not contractual disputes; so not much help there.

I don’t think that the DVLA’s opinion carries much weight as to the ownership of joint assets. I think that it is more limited as to liability for motoring offences.

What sort of vehicle are we talking about? Value? Was it underpriced?

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 20:14

Please confirm my advice is sensible - RT

Joint ownership is a general term which needs more definition - whether it needs both signatures or either one depends on the type of joint ownership.

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 22:13

Please confirm my advice is sensible - gordonbennet

A horrible state of affairs.

Pure common sense says to me as married couple that the buyer has bought in good faith from one partner of the marriage, the name on the V5, from the home address.

This is not like buying a car from someone you met on the street who has decided to cut and run from a failed marriage, this was following a correct advert in a recognised car sales website, which must have been up for a day or two unless our buyer managed to nab the vehicle within minutes of it going online.

Its hardly the buyers fault that the marriage is on the rocks and one or other of the partners has tried to raise cash buy selling an item, which could have been anything as it happens.

Lastly if the marriage had failed the chap should have removed the car from his wife so she couldn't do this deed, if indeed there is a shred of truth in the story he's come up with, which i doubt, a serious gambler lacking morals and prepared to sell her husbands property, somehow i doubt this fabled woman would have had the car to sell, anyone with an ounce of sense would have had the thing away, be like leaving an alcoholic in a free bar.

Presumably the check the OP's friend made re the car also covered finance checks, if not the geezer posing as a husband might be the least of their troubles.

The whole things stinks to me, but i agree with hiding the car immobilising it as well and to seek professional legal advice asap.

Edited by gordonbennet on 08/10/2018 at 22:14

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 23:33

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Bromptonaut

Lastly if the marriage had failed the chap should have removed the car from his wife so she couldn't do this deed, if indeed there is a shred of truth in the story he's come up with, which i doubt, a serious gambler lacking morals and prepared to sell her husbands property, somehow i doubt this fabled woman would have had the car to sell, anyone with an ounce of sense would have had the thing away, be like leaving an alcoholic in a free bar.

Let's just assume that husband is telling truth.

How does he remove car from her? Even if he'd had a clue she was going to pull this stunt.

If Mrs B decided to sell 'her' car or even 'our' caravan tomorrow how would I stop that? I certainly wouldn't (and couldn't) physically restrain her.

Perhaps gambling debts are part of a wider issue - she's got a real mental health problem like being bi-polar?

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Mon 8 Oct 2018 23:33

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

“I think you miss understand. My colleague has the V5 (we have seen it) and as I said above its in the sellers name i.e. the wife. The husbands name is not on it as the previous keeper and since its only a 2 owner car its a total lie.”

It’s the sellers responsibility to send off the V5, she shouldn’t have handed it to your colleague to handle. It was her legal obligation not his. That’s the only conclusion I can gather from the above as the recent changes to the V5 thanks to data protection mean the previous keepers name is no longer on the document. Tell him to get it filled in and sent off if he’s not already done so as it’s quite possible this fella has applied for another in his name which will make this all a bit of a nightmare.

When buying a car all you should walk away with is the green new keepers slip and not the full V5.

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Tue 9 Oct 2018 10:34

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Cris_on_the_gas

The V5C is no help to you as it does not prove ownership.

Can your colleague get in contact with previous keeper. Do they remember who they sold it to. Might be as simple as was it a man or a woman ?

Can the woman your colleague brought the car from produce an invoice or receipt when she brought the car ?

The next key would be the Insurance Schedule or proposal form. It should be stated who is the legal owner. Is there a chance of getting this from the vendor ?

Good luck in a nasty situation

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Thu 11 Oct 2018 18:35

Please confirm my advice is sensible - thunderbird

An update and its developed, no idea if its for the better or not.

On his way to work yesterday morning the colleague was stopped by the Police. After looking round the car and making him feel guilty they told him there was a drugs marker on the car and a drugs dog was on its way to carry out a search. He explained the situation with the car and since he was due to see the solicitor yesterday he had all the proof with him i.e. copy of V5C (original now sent off), MOT, invoice provided by the seller, copy of his insurance and a copy of the e-mail confirming tax. When he told them about the sellers husband wanting the car back because of his wifes gambling addiction etc they became very interested.

Dog arrived after a wait and it detected drugs (or residue). Car was seized for a full search.

So colleague is now without the car but the Police have confirmed that he is not a suspect and that the car will be returned to him once they have done whatever they need to do. He hopes its not returned as a large number of parts in boxes.

The good thing I suppose is the sellers husband cannot get his hands on it now, but neither can my colleague.

He missed his solicitors appointment but since the playing field has now changed that is probably just as well.

He is now 100% certain that once he gets the car back and has the V5C back in his name its off to We Buy Any Car. He just needs to think of a good genuine sounding reason to want out of it after a short time.

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Thu 11 Oct 2018 20:28

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

There must have been glaringly obvious warning signs at the home of these scumbags surely? I suspect colleague is a very poor judge of character. Was the price suspiciously low? These are not run of the mill decent ordinary people. It would be wise for your friend to take someone with him when shopping for another car. I hope it all works out for the best though and it ends up being a wee lesson in life rather than a painful slap.

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 13:58

Please confirm my advice is sensible - Bromptonaut

There must have been glaringly obvious warning signs at the home of these scumbags surely?

It's not difficult to get a 'marker' on your vehicle for drugs.

I related on here a while ago story of my son who got caught by Merseyside Police in his car, parked and engine off, smoking a cannabis spliff. Ordinary herbal cannabis not 'spice' or similar. Partly recreational and partly self medication for depression etc. He was arrested and bailed on suspicion of 'drugged in charge'.

In week or so afterwards he was stopped three times because his car was 'flagged'. Having been both clear and passing the attitude rest on each occasion final copper removed the tag. He's a polite articulate and well presented mid twenties. We've been repeatedly told what a credit to us he (and his sister) are.

Maybe Thunderbird's colleague's case involved more serious stuff than cannabis and/or suspicion of dealing? Hence dog and seizure of vehicle

There are plenty of folks in professions who's relationship with cocaine is like that of a functioning alcoholic and booze.

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Thu 11 Oct 2018 23:57

Please confirm my advice is sensible - csgmart

Just a thought - I wonder if the real reason the husband wanted the car back was because there were drugs in it that the wife didn't know about?

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 12:01

Please confirm my advice is sensible - thunderbird

There must have been glaringly obvious warning signs at the home of these scumbags surely?

The house was perfectly normal in a decent part of town

I suspect colleague is a very poor judge of character.

He did his homework beforehand checking MOT history and carrying out an HPI check based on the cars reg, both were fine. The VIN on the V5C matched that on the car and the car was registered to that address. The lady seemed perfectly normal. What else could he do

Was the price suspiciously low?

He paid £4200 for a 1.6 petrol Astra with 48,000 miles which is pretty normal looking on Autorader for a private sale with no warranty. The fact it was local made it the first choice.

It would be wise for your friend to take someone with him when shopping for another car.

I cannot see what a second person would have spotted since all was normal. A drugs dog or lie detector would have been the only ways of telling something was wrong.

Just a thought - I wonder if the real reason the husband wanted the car back was because there were drugs in it that the wife didn't know about?

The current thinking is the that the husband was in debt because of his drug habit, the gambling bit was probably a total load of b******s. Don't think the police are interested in a housewife with a bit of an online addiction are they?

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 13:01

Please confirm my advice is sensible - nick62

What a nightmare, I genuinely feel sorry for the purchaser.

I used to buy all my cars privately until I got to the point where I could afford to buy new outright (i.e. mid/late 30's).

There but for the grace of god, (and all that) ...........

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 15:42

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

Fair enough. Sounds like a very unfortunate bit of luck. The car wasn’t a giveaway, which is usually a giveaway and the woman and house seemed normal. It’s unusual but does happen. There’s a local trader near me who is also a known and convicted drug dealer yet you’d never know it to meet him. The car trading side is simply a way to give himself a legitimate looking income when questions are asked as to how he can afford to live where he is etc. He’d sell anything with four wheels.

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 15:50

Please confirm my advice is sensible - nick62

He’d sell anything with four wheels.

......... whether he owns it or not? ;)

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Fri 12 Oct 2018 22:18

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

He’d sell anything with four wheels.

......... whether he owns it or not? ;)

To be fair no he usually can be proved to own it. Including the half million pounds worth of drugs found in his garage a few years ago.

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Wed 5 Dec 2018 15:30

Please confirm my advice is sensible - thunderbird

Should have posted an update before now.

Car returned from Police who confirmed that they had no further interest in it. The Police obviously could not comment about the seller other than say investigations were still taking place but they did say he would hear no more from the sellers, he asked no more questions. Sold immediately to WBAC at a loss (not huge).

Bought another virtually identical Astra form a dealer but obviously had to find more money.

You could say a lesson learned but as far as I am concerned all it shows is how rotten people can be. Hopefully they will get a suitable sentence for their troubles.

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Wed 5 Dec 2018 18:05

Please confirm my advice is sensible - SLO76

Shame you had a bad experience but hopefully your motoring will be hassle free from here as recompense. Best of luck.

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