All - Diesel scrappage - barney100

All this anti diesel stuff at the moment and getting us to change to petrol and hybrids etc....will we have petrol lorries? It's common to see parked coaches with the engine on polluting all around. Will we have a country full of hybrid / electric cars but diesel lorries and coaches?

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

All this anti diesel stuff at the moment and getting us to change to petrol and hybrids etc....will we have petrol lorries? It's common to see parked coaches with the engine on polluting all around. Will we have a country full of hybrid / electric cars but diesel lorries and coaches?

City dwellers are going to stop buying food and other goods so they don't need trucks to deliver them.

All - Diesel scrappage - argybargy

Or put freight back on the railways where much of it used to be. Maybe that nice Mr Corbyn will pump a few billions into the nationalised railway system so they can better compete with road transport.

Vans etc will still be required for local journeys, of course. Unless this "drone delivery" thing takes off (no pun intended) and they start making them the size of helicopters.

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

Or put freight back on the railways where much of it used to be. Maybe that nice Mr Corbyn will pump a few billions into the nationalised railway system so they can better compete with road transport.

Vans etc will still be required for local journeys, of course. Unless this "drone delivery" thing takes off (no pun intended) and they start making them the size of helicopters.

Nice idea - but - Dr Beeching decimated the railway network so not that much of it left - the present capacity can't cope now with passenger numbers so freight services can't be expanded.

All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T

<< Dr Beeching decimated the railway network so not that much of it left - the present capacity can't cope now with passenger numbers so freight services can't be expanded. >>

Quite. In the 1970s the railways realised that their only viable freight role is with liner trains carrying one cargo - coal, logs, etc. I can't really visualise a 1000-ton load of corn flakes, baked beans or potatoes.

Even if some freight were to return to rail it would still require offloading to a road vehicle for delivery. Just not on any more, logistically

All - Diesel scrappage - argybargy

Or put freight back on the railways where much of it used to be. Maybe that nice Mr Corbyn will pump a few billions into the nationalised railway system so they can better compete with road transport.

Vans etc will still be required for local journeys, of course. Unless this "drone delivery" thing takes off (no pun intended) and they start making them the size of helicopters.

Nice idea - but - Dr Beeching decimated the railway network so not that much of it left - the present capacity can't cope now with passenger numbers so freight services can't be expanded.

I was being slightly facetious, RT. Buying back the rail network from private companies is one thing, and on its own would probably cripple the Treasury; improving and extending the infrastructure to create genuine competition between road and rail is quite another.

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

Or put freight back on the railways where much of it used to be. Maybe that nice Mr Corbyn will pump a few billions into the nationalised railway system so they can better compete with road transport.

Vans etc will still be required for local journeys, of course. Unless this "drone delivery" thing takes off (no pun intended) and they start making them the size of helicopters.

Nice idea - but - Dr Beeching decimated the railway network so not that much of it left - the present capacity can't cope now with passenger numbers so freight services can't be expanded.

I was being slightly facetious, RT. Buying back the rail network from private companies is one thing, and on its own would probably cripple the Treasury; improving and extending the infrastructure to create genuine competition between road and rail is quite another.

The railways themselves were never privatised, Network Rail is a publicly owned company - it was the train services themselves which were privatised, usually leasing trains from another publicly owned company!

All - Diesel scrappage - argybargy

Or put freight back on the railways where much of it used to be. Maybe that nice Mr Corbyn will pump a few billions into the nationalised railway system so they can better compete with road transport.

Vans etc will still be required for local journeys, of course. Unless this "drone delivery" thing takes off (no pun intended) and they start making them the size of helicopters.

Nice idea - but - Dr Beeching decimated the railway network so not that much of it left - the present capacity can't cope now with passenger numbers so freight services can't be expanded.

I was being slightly facetious, RT. Buying back the rail network from private companies is one thing, and on its own would probably cripple the Treasury; improving and extending the infrastructure to create genuine competition between road and rail is quite another.

The railways themselves were never privatised, Network Rail is a publicly owned company - it was the train services themselves which were privatised, usually leasing trains from another publicly owned company!

Thanks, I understand that. I have a close relative who works for Network Rail. ;0)

The shortcomings of privatised rail franchises are well documented, but what I think is less well known is that they still get lots of money from the Treasury to ensure they make a profit so we can all see that privatisation works.

All - Diesel scrappage - Engineer Andy

The problem with the UK's rail privatisations is that there were done in the wrong way. There was either an article in the DT or TV report/documentary about the issue, which its main thrust was that the franchise periods were way to short (7 years) for firms to bother to plan long term and make the kinds of investments they need, hence why most of the time they just repaint the trains.

It doesn't help with our militant Hard Left rail unions blackmailing Naitional Rail, the rail operating companies and the government (local and national) either. £50k+ for a glorified bus driver for a 35hr week, lots of holidays and free travel for them plus family (often) ANYWHERE on the network, and they have the cheek to complain about Ts&Cs! I worked for the 'Tube Lines' company for a couple of years about a decade or so ago and the mix of private sector staff and militant (and IMO often usless, lazy and ineffecient) ex-LU staff was the worst of all worlds, and they WERE the BETTER of the two PPP firms. Take how much it should cost to do something and triple it - that's how the railway is run, and has been since the end of WWII.

Younger people don't realise how BAD the nationalised railways were, and, frankly, how much it costs on taxes on the continent to run such services. Its only in the more 'efficiency culture' countries that they are better value for money, and privately run trains could work if politics and hard left unions weren't.

All - Diesel scrappage - Bromptonaut

City dwellers are going to stop buying food and other goods so they don't need trucks to deliver them.

We need to reduce NOx/particulate levels in inner cities, particularly London. The main contributor of NOx and particulates is the diesel engine. Diesels cannot be eliminated altogether as we need goods moving to provide supplies. Diesel pollution can be lowered significantly by reducing non-essential users such as many of the private diesel cars in Inner London and by incentivising use of hybrids and electrics for essental stuff, local deliveries etc.

Raising issues like wood burners and tyre/brake particles as reason to do nothing about the biggest part of the problem, diesel, is like the kid caught misbehaving in class complaining that little Johnny got away with it.

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

I read diesels will stay for a long time yet but its up to the manufacturers to make them eco friendly, thats assuming people want to buy them, if assuming they are made much more efficient and eco friendly I see no reason not to carry on buying them

but as with any other health scares, people tend to panick and not listen/understand the reasons why diesel is unhealthy. though I doubt you will see the end of diesel hgv`s

Londons Mayor is trying to ban woodburning fires as part of emmisions problem, but it would help if older vans/lorries were banned first, or had the smoke problems fixed, which so far appear to be getting away with smoky engines

All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T

When all is said and done, the basic problem is that too many people do too much travelling, partly because they enjoy the advantages it brings. Petrol, diesel, aero-fuel - it all contributes to the overall pollution of the atmosphere. You can chop and change between them, but it won't reduce the overall problem much, just the flavour.

One thing we don't need to do is cultivate car racing, F1 etc. It's fun for some, but hardly beneficial to anyone.

All - Diesel scrappage - Pondlife

One thing we don't need to do is cultivate car racing, F1 etc. It's fun for some, but hardly beneficial to anyone.

I wonder if the research and development for car racing has a net beneficial effect for private cars and commercial vehicles in the long run.

I suspect that the amount of fuel used for racing as a percentage of private/commercial use would be tiny, so even small future gains due to research could result in a net benefit.

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

When all is said and done, the basic problem is that too many people do too much travelling, partly because they enjoy the advantages it brings. Petrol, diesel, aero-fuel - it all contributes to the overall pollution of the atmosphere. You can chop and change between them, but it won't reduce the overall problem much, just the flavour.

One thing we don't need to do is cultivate car racing, F1 etc. It's fun for some, but hardly beneficial to anyone.

Maybe if bus service and train service were improved by a heck of a lot, people would travel more by those means, I remember a long time ago when the rail had up to 12 carriages and up to eight stopped at certain stations, now your lucky to see 4, no wonder no one wants to use it

All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T

<< Maybe if bus service and train service were improved by a heck of a lot, people would travel more by those means, I remember a long time ago when the rail had up to 12 carriages and up to eight stopped at certain stations, now your lucky to see 4, no wonder no one wants to use it. >>

Until WW1 the railway was the only transport available to most people, apart from municipal bus services. After that the bus companies easily attracted people from the railway, because they didn't have to get to a station perhaps a long way away. After WW2 more people could afford cars, which then attracted them away from the bus, as they were no longer limited to a fixed timetable, they didn't have to wait in the rain, and the car took them to the door (or close to it). Rural buses soon became uneconomic.

Reversing that mindset will be impossible unless driving and parking become intolerably difficult or expensive, and increased taxation is used to subsidise public transport.

Edited by Andrew-T on 10/10/2017 at 18:23

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

City dwellers are going to stop buying food and other goods so they don't need trucks to deliver them.

We need to reduce NOx/particulate levels in inner cities, particularly London. The main contributor of NOx and particulates is the diesel engine. Diesels cannot be eliminated altogether as we need goods moving to provide supplies. Diesel pollution can be lowered significantly by reducing non-essential users such as many of the private diesel cars in Inner London and by incentivising use of hybrids and electrics for essental stuff, local deliveries etc.

Raising issues like wood burners and tyre/brake particles as reason to do nothing about the biggest part of the problem, diesel, is like the kid caught misbehaving in class complaining that little Johnny got away with it.

I was trying to be humourous!

NOx and particulates are an issue in cities - that's why Euro 6 petrols have to meet the PM limits that diesel did in Euro 5 - and why Euro 6 diesel NOx limits are very close to those of petrol, and many large diesel cars are under 50% of their limit.

I doubt that ANY car user in London regards their use as non-essential, it's not exactly a joy-ride.

Both local and national government are missing out step one in improving city air quality - introduce cheap, clean, efficient public transport and that will eliminate large numbers of so-called non-essential car journeys - if the public don't/won't use that cheap, clean efficient public transport then just introduce appropriate bans.

All - Diesel scrappage - Terry W

The future will not be trains. They function on commuter routes into major cities. For most other journeys they are inflexible, expensive and require transport to/from each terminus.

Simply due to power requirements, diesel will continue to dominate the freight market. Using rail for the long distace component, then adding to cost and complexity for local sectors - building loading, unloading, storage and container handling is plain daft.

A far more likely scenario is a rapid growth in hybrids for personal, local delivery and light commercial use. This would give significantly lower emissions in city centres, the option to battery charge at home, supermarket or on board engine charging. Small efficient engines with power augmented by battery for fast acceleration.

The only question is timing. Transition to hybrid may be 3-10 years away. Diesel scrappage in my view is a sales ploy designed to part punters from their cash. You need to be clear what other discounts come with the car, finance deals if this is part if the purchase decision, and what the trade in value should be.

The best advice is to ignore the hype and focus on cost to change.

All - Diesel scrappage - RickyBoy

The best advice is to ignore the hype and focus on cost to change.

...I recently have and it's worked very much to my advantage! Cheers Audi...

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

A far more likely scenario is a rapid growth in hybrids for personal, local delivery and light commercial use

hybrid HGvs are being tested, but there are a lot of problems to overcome for them, I agree hybrid cars may become the norm unless diesel is made a lot more eco friendly which is more than possible

I gather inroads are being made into flexible batteries which would improve on the amount and position they can be placed in a car, similar tech to samsungs flex phone they are developing. futures looking good tech wise

All - Diesel scrappage - sandy56

Current diesel technology, EURO 6, passes all current requirements to be used in the UK and across Europe.

The politicians cannot ban diesel cars tomorrow, that would upset the Germans and Merkel is in their pocket, and the German run the EU.

So no, diesel cars will not be banned anytime soon. I believe that all IC cars will be banned at some point but not for a while, as we do not have enough power stations to charge a huge fleet of electric cars, nor enough charge points. There is a whole raft of prolems to be solved before we can move fully to electric cars.

And aside from that we will still have more pollution as moving to electric cars just means that instead of the pollution coming from the cars it will come from power stations, unless we move to all wind, impossible, all solar, impossible, all nuclear politically impossible. We generate our power from a variety of sources, gas, coal, nuclear, wind, and imports from France. ( currently Germany is still building more new coal fired power stations to ensure they have enough power in the future, but we tie ourselves in knots over the issue)

Re petrol trucks, we would have to have a massive and very expensive change over to petrol trucks, will it happen?, who knows but it will not happen overnight. The cost and the time required to do it are huge, and would it make a significant difference?

All - Diesel scrappage - Engineer Andy
And aside from that we will still have more pollution as moving to electric cars just means that instead of the pollution coming from the cars it will come from power stations, unless we move to all wind, impossible, all solar, impossible, all nuclear politically impossible. We generate our power from a variety of sources, gas, coal, nuclear, wind, and imports from France. ( currently Germany is still building more new coal fired power stations to ensure they have enough power in the future, but we tie ourselves in knots over the issue)

Isn't that because the Germans bottled it after Fukishima and are now decomissioning all their nuclear plants and not building any more? Coal ain't green.

All - Diesel scrappage - Cyd
Isn't that because the Germans bottled it after Fukishima and are now decomissioning all their nuclear plants and not building any more? Coal ain't green.

Yes, it is. I was with a German supplier last week and their Engineers were extremely scathing of this policy.

Interestingly, the company who does our ride and drive coaches into work has just taken delivery of a hybrid coach. I've seen it only in the depot and don't know any details yet.

All - Diesel scrappage - pd
Train use has doubled in less than 20 years. The idea no one is using it is one of the sillier things I've read here.
All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T
Train use has doubled in less than 20 years. The idea no one is using it is one of the sillier things I've read here.

I don't remember anyone saying no-one is using the train. However passenger use is nearly all long-distance or rush-hour commuting, and we are regularly told that both those uses are nearly at capacity - which is used to justify HS2, largely a vanity project to show the French (and others) that we can do it too.

Our rail system was complete by about 1900, except for a few Edwardian cut-off lines. It was designed for a much smaller population and more local use. After the Beeching axe had more than halved the network it's not surprising it's stretched today.

All - Diesel scrappage - RickyBoy

...used it yesterday from MK to Birmingham. Booked 3-weeks ago so an Advance Off-Peak Return on the Virgin Flyer cost me £5.90! OK so that's with a Senior Railcard, but you couldn't buy two cups of coffee for that these days.

Journey N went without a hitch.

However, I arrived back at New St. around 18:00 (I like to sit for an hour and (people)watch the commuters dashing around) to see that the 18:10 to Euston (originating from Scotland?) had been cancelled – due to flooding in Penrith.

As I was booked on the 19:10 (again originating from Scotlad?) I decided to pose the question to Virgin's staff. Sure enough they told me that the 19:10 would also be cancelled but could adjust my ticket to enable me to travel on the London Midland Euston bound at 18:30. Fair enough I thought, even though it was a frequent stopping train and would take an additional 35-40 mins.

All was fine until we arrived at Northampton. Long story short – we sat there for 40-mins as there had apparently been a 'trespass on ther line' at Aspley (Herts) earlier in the day which meant that they were playing catch-up and drivers/crews weren't in the place(s) they should be so we didn't have a driver! Eventually one was found and we were sent on our way.

Morale of this story? I don't know as I fell asleep after reading paragraph 4... ...for once I was simply unlucky with a sequence of events that were (initially Virgin's/subsequently London Midlands) out of their control.

I absolutely LOVE those Virgin pendolinos (and obviously their advance ticket prices) so would never ever consider driving into Birmingham, London or Manchester when the train service is normally that good.

Equally though, I'll never, ever give up my motor(s) as they offer me complete freedom of choice that no other transport system can match.

So, do we need HS2 to save 30-mins? Not a bit of it – as people are still going to attempt to engineer their own demise from time to time and it ain't ever gonna stop raining period – plus they'll be carving-up some of my favourite walking areas in the Chilterns & Oxfordshire.

Off to London next week. I'll clearly report back if I'm delayed by more than 5-mins :–) ...

All - Diesel scrappage - corax
Isn't that because the Germans bottled it after Fukishima and are now decomissioning all their nuclear plants and not building any more? Coal ain't green.

Yes, it is. I was with a German supplier last week and their Engineers were extremely scathing of this policy.

I'm surprised at the Germans pushing the policy through. The country is not exactly Japan, it does not sit near any fault lines. The UK is probably more at risk of a Tsunami wave from potential far off landslides.

Edited by corax on 12/10/2017 at 18:11

All - Diesel scrappage - focussed

"Coal ain't green"

Especially the coal the Germans are burning - it's lignite - soft brown coal, disgusting filthy stuff - one step up the geological ladder from compressed peat.

Very low heat value and it's a very high emitter of CO2 when burned for power production.

Natural gas - 181.08 gram CO2 / kwh

Lignite (typical) 332.75 gram CO2 / kwh

All - Diesel scrappage - sandy56

Yes

We urgently need more nuclear power!

All - Diesel scrappage - corax

"Coal ain't green"

Especially the coal the Germans are burning - it's lignite - soft brown coal, disgusting filthy stuff - one step up the geological ladder from compressed peat.

Very low heat value and it's a very high emitter of CO2 when burned for power production.

Natural gas - 181.08 gram CO2 / kwh

Lignite (typical) 332.75 gram CO2 / kwh

They'll have huge particulate filters in the chimneys, programmed by VAG.

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-climatechange/br...O

interesting, though not sure this isnt old news?

All - Diesel scrappage - Sofa Spud
And aside from that we will still have more pollution as moving to electric cars just means that instead of the pollution coming from the cars it will come from power stations, unless we move to all wind, impossible, all solar, impossible, all nuclear politically impossible. We generate our power from a variety of sources, gas, coal, nuclear, wind, and imports from France. ( currently Germany is still building more new coal fired power stations to ensure they have enough power in the future, but we tie ourselves in knots over the issue)

Isn't that because the Germans bottled it after Fukishima and are now decomissioning all their nuclear plants and not building any more? Coal ain't green.

We're moving to renewable energy though. Some days nearly 30% of our electricity comes from wind turbines, although occasionally there are days when it's close to 0%. As I write this the real-time figure is 16.1%.

Solar PV now makes a significant contribution during the daylight hours, dependent on time of year and cloud cover. Now that grid-scale battery storage installations are being trialled excess electricity from windfarms generated at night when demand is low can be stored to be tapped during peaks in demand.

Given that there's plenty of scope for expanding solar and wind generation, we could in a few years have 50% of our electricity coming from renewables. Coal only plays a small part in electricity generation in Britain now, while nuclear provides a more-or-less constant baseload that varies as a percentage depending on overall demand.

And while tidal power has been talked about for a long time it hasn't really progressed beyond experimental devices but we know it works and could provide a significant proportion of our electricity.

And while the doubters doubt, this energy revolution is quietly going on and proving them wrong.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 14/10/2017 at 23:16

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

We've already had days with 50% renewables - but that includes nuclear and solar/wind/tidal;/wave are all dependent on the climate, not on demand.

Immediate energy still has to come from the fossil-fueled stations - and hydro but hyudro can't be expanded, we don't have the terrain.

All - Diesel scrappage - Sofa Spud

We've already had days with 50% renewables - but that includes nuclear and solar/wind/tidal;/wave are all dependent on the climate, not on demand.

Immediate energy still has to come from the fossil-fueled stations - and hydro but hyudro can't be expanded, we don't have the terrain.

But nuclear isn't renewable, it relies on uranium that is mined from the ground and is a finite resource. The world's exploitable reserves of uranium are measured in decades rather than centuries or milennia! Wind energy is dependent on climate, solar is partially dependent on climate and tidal is fairly predictable and reliable (but the tidal power hasn't been exploited beyind the experimental stage in Britain yet.)

If you look up grid-scale electricity storage you'll see that there's a whole new industry developing around large battery warehouses than can store electricity, particularly from wind generation during periods of low demand for use during periods of high demand.

See: . . . www.energy-storage.news/news/europes-largest-grid-...k

Large scale hydro-electric might not be approppriate in Britain because in the places where it clould be done it would be unacceptable because of large lakes that would be created by flooding valleys. But smaller river flow hydro schemes exist and while individually the don't generate much electricity, if there were more of them they could collectively contribute a few percent to the mix of renewable electricity generation.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 14/10/2017 at 23:49

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

but the tidal power hasn't been exploited beyind the experimental stage in Britain yet

I thought that was due to costs and size of steel reinforcements needed under the sea for tidal, our tides may be the fastest in the world but getting the power is going to cost more than anyone really wants to spend

All - Diesel scrappage - corax

but the tidal power hasn't been exploited beyind the experimental stage in Britain yet

I thought that was due to costs and size of steel reinforcements needed under the sea for tidal, our tides may be the fastest in the world but getting the power is going to cost more than anyone really wants to spend

uk.businessinsider.com/worlds-first-tidal-energy-f...0

If we can't take advantage of the best natural resource we have, then we should be laughed at by the rest of the world.

The turbines are out of sight, so people can't moan about the view while their electric car is charging and dinner is sizzling away on the cooker.

All - Diesel scrappage - RT

but the tidal power hasn't been exploited beyind the experimental stage in Britain yet

I thought that was due to costs and size of steel reinforcements needed under the sea for tidal, our tides may be the fastest in the world but getting the power is going to cost more than anyone really wants to spend

uk.businessinsider.com/worlds-first-tidal-energy-f...0

If we can't take advantage of the best natural resource we have, then we should be laughed at by the rest of the world.

The turbines are out of sight, so people can't moan about the view while their electric car is charging and dinner is sizzling away on the cooker.

The turbines may be out of sight but the power transmission lines aren't - Scotland is destroying its tourist industry by the visual carbuncles of wind farms and transmission line.

Building wind farms in the Flow Country of Caithness & Sutherland is destroying huge amounts of peat which absorb CO2 like a sponge and is now being released at a higher rate than the wind farms save!

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

The turbines are out of sight

they may be in some areas, but others they stick out like sore thumbs and are eyesores that ruin the look of certain areas. like the warehouses that store the power for peak periods which we will need more of to keep up with power needs

All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T

The turbines may be out of sight in some areas, but others they stick out like sore thumbs and are eyesores that ruin the look of certain areas. like the warehouses that store the power for peak periods which we will need more of to keep up with power needs

I am always amused by this knee-jerk reaction against 'windmills'. I agree, some are a bit too big, but people automatically think against them while quite liking old ones they sometimes come across in villages.

Where I live in Cheshire a 'farm' of about 18 turbines was built a few years ago half a mile from here. Although the patch of flat land already had a motorway, a power line, and chemical plants at both ends, protest meetings were arranged to search for valid reasons why they should not be put there. Seems an ideal place to me, as the output can be used locally without the need for any more power lines across the countryside.

All - Diesel scrappage - bolt

I am always amused by this knee-jerk reaction against 'windmills'

I cannot blame people for protesting and it is their right, but I think its a waste of time as they build what they want regardless of what people say.

I remember protests over mobile phone masts being erected on tall buildings years ago, to overcome the unsightly problem they were installed in cabinets on the same roofs so you couldnt see them, it would have been easier to do that in the first place than openly cause problems

I doubt that will happen with battery storage warehouses, which I suspect more will be built to store electricity untill its needed at peak times. I have noticed lately more field of solar panels now than were around years ago so maybe costs are dropping?

All - Diesel scrappage - Andrew-T

<< If you look up grid-scale electricity storage you'll see that there's a whole new industry developing around large battery warehouses than can store electricity, particularly from wind generation during periods of low demand for use during periods of high demand. >>

Oh God - not MORE warehouses. As if there weren't too many already ....

 

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