New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

Hi, first timer poster here, sorry for the lengthy first post!

We had an issue with our car last year that resulted in the manufacturer paying up to have a new engine fitted; the car was, at the time, 9 years old but had a full service history and the engine failed with a known issue (crankshaft failure, not admitted by the manufacturer though, but very well documented). The local dealer sourced a short engine block, new cylinder heads, timing chains, oil pump etc, and built the engine up using the original external parts, sump, oil pickup, etc. We got the car back in June last year. In March this year, having covered 9000 miles on the new engine, the engine suddenly developed a severe rattle over the space of a couple of minutes and had to be towed back to the dealer; they diagnosed failed big ends due to a lack of oil, making various claims about the condition of the oil and refusing to accept any repsonibility for the failure. They refused to accept my suggestion of bringing in an independant engineering specialist, but instead suggested using The Motor Ombudsman as they are members of their scheme; TMO immediately requested that I appoint an independant engineering specialist, which I did, bearing the entire cost myself. After an examination of the engine and an oil analysis, they confirmed the oil was in perfect condition, indicating it hadn't been run low. The only problem they could identify was silicon contamination at quite a high level in the oil, citing several possible reasons for this, one of which was environmental contamination. TMO has seized upon this part of the report and stated that this was the cause of the failure and the garage were, therefore, not repsonsible. I've been exchanging emails with TMO, providing plenty of evidence that the garage's story holds no water, but they're not changing their opinion.

I'm not sure where we go next; the TMO have yet to issue their final decision, but all evidence so far indicates it will be in the garage's favour. I guess we need to go the legal route, so need to find a solicitor who deals with this sort of claim; any suggestions?

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - SLO76
Just to verify, you said it's a 9yr old car? What mileage was on it when it initially failed? Also what make, model and engine is it?

Edited by SLO76 on 09/10/2017 at 23:51

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

It had 118K miles on the clock when the crankshaft failed. Because so many of the vehicles have failed around thew 100k miles mark, it seems the manufacturer has quietly been replacing engines. I'm avoiding mentioning the make of car at the moment in case it affects any possible legal case we may have.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - John F

I'm avoiding mentioning the make of car at the moment in case it affects any possible legal case we may have.

Well, let's have a googleguess.......Land Rover 2.7tdi?

www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php/126939...t

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - focussed

Hmm- and guess what? The Chief Ombudsman worked at JLR - just saying!

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - NARU

I'd have thought it much more likely that the garage used too much sealant somewhere in the engine rebuild, and it has gradually moved around the oilways until one has blocked.

I've no idea how you prove that though.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - craig-pd130

I would have thought a manufacturer-supplied short engine and goodwill engine replacement job should be warranted against failure for at least 12 months / 12,000 miles. It's not as if you bought a recon engine of unknown provenance from a backstreet garage.

I would stick to that argument, and as said above, the possibility that excess gasket sealer / jointing compound has blocked or restricted the engine's oilways.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - catsdad
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset.

If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms.

Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - madf

Legal requirement is for a repalcement under warranty to be covered until ed of warranty period. Stop. Any extra time is goodwill.

Sounds like an early 2008 Subaru 22.0TD . Early ones broke cranks. And too much sealant at the factory gave problems..

A replacement engine at 9 years is generous and not Subaru!

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Galaxy

Legal requirement is for a repalcement under warranty to be covered until ed of warranty period. Stop. Any extra time is goodwill.

Yes, that's quite correct. I once returned a car battery which had failed with just two weeks of the 3 year warranty to run! The dealership did change the failed battery for me with an identical brand new one. However, I was also informed that the replacement battery would only have a warranty for the remaining two weeks of the warranty of the original one.

As it turned out, that was never a problem and the replacement battery was still fitted to that car when I sold it.

Edited by Galaxy on 10/10/2017 at 13:20

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - madf

Legal requirement is for a repalcement under warranty to be covered until ed of warranty period. Stop. Any extra time is goodwill.

Yes, that's quite correct. I once returned a car battery which had failed with just two weeks of the 3 year warranty to run! The dealership did change the failed battery for me with an identical brand new one. However, I was also informed that the replacement battery would only have a warranty for the remaining two weeks of the warranty of the original one.

As it turned out, that was never a problem and the replacement battery was still fitted to that car when I sold it.

Yes; been there with batteries..

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - bolt
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset. If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms. Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

Only company I know off that extended a warranty was Samsung, after the Note 7 problem,I sent mine back as they asked, due to recall and they extended the warranty from 2 years to 3 as a goodwill gesture, untill the second lot burnt out and was a total recall

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Engineer Andy
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset. If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms. Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

Only company I know off that extended a warranty was Samsung, after the Note 7 problem,I sent mine back as they asked, due to recall and they extended the warranty from 2 years to 3 as a goodwill gesture, untill the second lot burnt out and was a total recall

Warranty issues are, I think, a real problem these days. I just had a 15yo Neff electric oven fail (min. £105 to repair [its at the end of its anticipated life anyway], possibly £300 if its the PCB that's failed) and looked at a new one, and none do anything more than a 2 year warranty, even the ultra expensive brands. Yet on the other side of the coin, I buy a £139 freeview PVR from Richer Sounds and pay £14 for a warranty extension to 6 years, mainly because they bother to honour them (I had a Samsung TV go wrong after 2 years [3yr extension bought at the time], and they replaced it with a brand new model and reset the warranty to year zero - sweet!).

I never understand how supposedly some equipment, including some cars, are becoming more reliable, and yet, for the most part, warranties (even on basic models with far less gizmos/electronics) have relatively short warranties. If KIA and Richer Sounds can offer value for money products and long warranties at no extra or a small charge, what does it say for those who don't (my own car's make, Mazda, included)? I have no problem them excluding certain wear and tear items such as car clutches or suchlike whose lifespan often depends on the amount and type of usage, but surely most other things can be warrantied for far longer?

I know HJ says that most cars are specifically designed to last only 7 years, and yet surely with the environmental problems we face, its far better to build more durable products (as we used to in many fields) at least as well as the cheaper ones that don't last as long. I for one would pay good money for a car that could easily last 20 years and 500k miles with a reasonable amount of TLC.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - groaver

I know HJ says that most cars are specifically designed to last only 7 years, and yet surely with the environmental problems we face, its far better to build more durable products (as we used to in many fields) at least as well as the cheaper ones that don't last as long.

There's less money in that for the manufacturers. It'll never catch on...

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - gordonbennet
There's less money in that for the manufacturers. It'll never catch on...

Indeed, many maker's vehicles around the golden age of the 90's, a fair while before and shorter while after depending on make, were well designed and well made to the point that so many of them are still running now, and their owners have every intention of this happy state of affaits continuing for many years to come, good on fuel decent performance and handling good rust protection, but where they win hands down is reasonably simple and repairable by almost any competent mechanic.

They won't make vehicles like those again, and there's quite a few of us absolutely refuse to buy the overcomplex nannying things they do make now.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - barney100

Don't tell my mate cars only last 7 years...he's got himself an E class estate fromm 2000!

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - dadbif
Richer sounds give a 6 year guarantee on their TV’s, and the customer service is excellent
New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - John F

Getting way off topic, folks - I don't think the OP will be interested in either TV warranties or car longevity (I doubt if HJ ever said 7yrs - he must know the average scrappage age is around 14yrs - and that includes 'write-offs' - a well maintained car averaging 8000m a year lasts at least 15yrs these days). He wants suggestions, and there have been few so far.

My suggestion is this. Tell the outfit that 'repaired' it that no oil could possibly be so sludgy after a mere 9,000m to block the flow holes unless by lumps of surplus sealant, which would be the rebuilder's fault. Write to say they must repair it properly gratis or you will get it done yourself and present them with the receipted bill, and will resort to the small claims court if they don't reimburse you.

Please let us know the outcome.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - focussed

Getting way off topic, folks - I don't think the OP will be interested in either TV warranties or car longevity (I doubt if HJ ever said 7yrs - he must know the average scrappage age is around 14yrs - and that includes 'write-offs' - a well maintained car averaging 8000m a year lasts at least 15yrs these days). He wants suggestions, and there have been few so far.

My suggestion is this. Tell the outfit that 'repaired' it that no oil could possibly be so sludgy after a mere 9,000m to block the flow holes unless by lumps of surplus sealant, which would be the rebuilder's fault. Write to say they must repair it properly gratis or you will get it done yourself and present them with the receipted bill, and will resort to the small claims court if they don't reimburse you.

Please let us know the outcome.

Absolutely the correct way to handle it - make sure that all that is in writing, sent registered and signed for. The only possible snag is that the cost could be more than the small claims court limit which is £10K.

If the claim is more than that limit the claim will be referred to the county court, but you could be liable for the defendant's costs if you lose the case.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - argybargy
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset. If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms. Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

As someone who has just had a clutch replaced by Ford during a period of extended warranty which ends in June next year (total of 5 years on gearbox components), I'll be asking that question of my Ford dealer today.

If a new clutch can be fitted and then warrantied to last for only just over eight months, or in my case about 6,000 miles, that sounds like a pretty bad deal under any circumstances.

Edited by argybargy on 11/10/2017 at 10:24

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - RT
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset. If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms. Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

As someone who has just had a clutch replaced by Ford during a period of extended warranty which ends in June next year (total of 5 years on gearbox components), I'll be asking that question of my Ford dealer today.

If a new clutch can be fitted and then warrantied to last for only just over eight months, or in my case about 6,000 miles, that sounds like a pretty bad deal under any circumstances.

That's always been an anomaly of "free" warranty work and paid for repairs - a warranty repair has the same end of warranty as the original, to expect more of a replaced part means you're expecting a warranty to last longer than originally agreed.

Most brands will handle this with ex-gratia goodwill gestures out of warranty but how generous that is depends which brand.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - argybargy
I have every sympathy with the OP. However I think a key issue will be that his rights are reduced by this initially being a goodwill (free) repair at the outset. If you have paid for something then you have more rights. If not, you are at the mercy of the manufacturers terms. Isn't it the same with a warranty repair near the end of the warranty period.? I am sure I've seen HJ advise that the repair is only covered to the end of the warranty even if that is only days away.

As someone who has just had a clutch replaced by Ford during a period of extended warranty which ends in June next year (total of 5 years on gearbox components), I'll be asking that question of my Ford dealer today.

If a new clutch can be fitted and then warrantied to last for only just over eight months, or in my case about 6,000 miles, that sounds like a pretty bad deal under any circumstances.

That's always been an anomaly of "free" warranty work and paid for repairs - a warranty repair has the same end of warranty as the original, to expect more of a replaced part means you're expecting a warranty to last longer than originally agreed.

Most brands will handle this with ex-gratia goodwill gestures out of warranty but how generous that is depends which brand.

Thanks for that. To be perfectly honest ( and removing my faux outrage hat) I kind of assumed that once the warranty ends then any work carried out "free" under its terms would cease to be covered. I'll ask the question anyhow, because it would be nice to have it confirmed or otherwise. Who knows: the situation may differ from one dealer to another, as it has in the varying interpretation of which components are covered by the warranty.

Edited by argybargy on 11/10/2017 at 10:43

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

Thanks for all the responses. I'm giving the motor ombudsman the opportunity to see the light and that the dealer's trying to pull a fast one. If it comes to a new engine, the cost will be under 10k, although it may be tight with all my incurred costs that have been racked up over the last 6 or 7 months. Someone has guessed what engine it is and it is indeed a 2 litre Diesel (the manufacturer's first ever Diesel engine).

Agreed regarding the oil, and the oil analysis confirms it, with the viscosity, acids, TBN, carbon content all well within normal operating conditions and nowhere near needing replacement; the only reading out of the ordinary was the silicon contamination.

It appears that the motor ombudsman, rather than acting as an ombudsman, expects the consumer to prove beyond all possible doubt that the manufacturer or the garage is at fault, otherwise it's assumed the consumer is.

The importer (so not a JLR vehicle) has stated there's no warranty on parts supplied under a goodwill arrangement, so I would be in the same poistion if they'd supplied an engine from a scrappy (possibly better as the garage wouldn't have had it apart)!

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - bolt

The importer (so not a JLR vehicle) has stated there's no warranty on parts supplied under a goodwill arrangement,

I was always under the assumption that, as a part was replaced with the same fault as original, then it should and normaly is replaced due to the original fault still existing in the replacement, as the original fault has not been rectified as in this case. am I wrong? in this !

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - focussed

"The local dealer sourced a short engine block, new cylinder heads, timing chains, oil pump etc, and built the engine up using the original external parts, sump, oil pickup, etc."

It's not a parts warranty claim - it's a claim against the dealer who built the engine.

The reason for failure has been stated as "silicon contamination" which presumably should read "silicone contamination" ie excessive sealant used caused the problem - don't know how or what it contaminated but irrelevant.

You don't have to prove it - it's down in writing.

Who applied the silicone?

You - the user? - No

The manufacturer? Not likely as they only supplied parts (presumably)

The dealer who built the engine? - They built the engine so they had to use silicone sealant during the build - (sump joint etc)?

You - the owner, have suffered a loss - through no fault of your own, because of the dealer's carelessness or lack of skill.

I would say take it to court - which one is up to you, I think a small claims court would find for you if you dot all the i's and cross all the T's - if you do it properly it may not get as far as court - they will more than likely make you an offer to get you to cry off before the case.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

Focussed, 100% with you on that, but for some reason the motor ombudsman doesn't see it that way (presumably because the motor industry pays them).

The analysis of the oil was elemental, so it was silicon that was detected, but of course it would have been present in the form of either silicone or silica (sand).

I'm gearing up to take them to court, just waiting for the motor ombudsman to issue a decision (they've been involved for 5 months so far!)

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - madf

" Someone has guessed what engine it is and it is indeed a 2 litre Diesel (the manufacturer's first ever Diesel engine)."

So it is a Subaru.

Be aware that engine failures form new on the Mark1 Diesel were common from gasket misapplication...And you can find lots of details on the internet.

And they should have taken the engine apart and cleaned all oilways - especially turbo ones - to remove all traces of swarf and congealed oil. I understand the best way is prolonged soaking in a bath of solvent followed by blowing through with compressed air - but someone can correct me.

You can find plenty of examples of failed engines just google "Subaru diesel engine failures" or similar.

Given the public nature of the issues, you can submit enough evidence to convince a court the original engine was not fit for purpose and the rebuild no better - in my view.

Edited by madf on 12/10/2017 at 07:48

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

I'm well aware of the issues, unfortunately, this is now our 3rd engine failure on this model of car (we have 2 and they've both needed new engines, the first replacement was built up by me, because the car didn't have full history, and hasn't missed a beat in 3 years).

I have written quite extensively in one of the model specific forums about the problems with the 1st version of this engine.

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - focussed

What exactly is the contamination?

Silica - Silicon - or Silicone?

Better read this article.

www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/89/silicon-engin...l

Note where silicon contamination can arise from - pistons.

Edited by focussed on 12/10/2017 at 19:16

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

The analysis was elemental, so it's impossible to determine what form the silicon was in. I've asked the engineering firm if they can section the oil filter as that should reveal whether we're dealing with sand/ grit or silicone sealant. I doubt the silicon came from the pistons, the aluminium levels in the oil were low and there was no sign of torching on the pistons.

Edited by Martin Whybrow on 12/10/2017 at 19:36

New engine failed after 9000 miles, where next - Martin Whybrow

Bit of an update, the motor ombudsman has submitted put the claim in for a final decision, which is their last comment on the case; prior to this, I submitted a load of evidence showing that the garage's statement was it had run out of oil and I had all the evidence pointing out that it didn't; TMO stated unless I could show exactly what the garage had done wrong, then they had no case to answer - this sounds more like the counsel for the defence than an impartial ombudsman. I've now had to fork out another large sum of money to have the oil filter sectioned and analysed, hoping that the evidence I need is in there.

I was under the impression that if you took a car to a garage, they were supposed to find out what had gone wrong, not make wild *rse guesses as to what may have happened.

 

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