Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

I don't normally like to go above 80, because the car is over 30 years old and the 3 cylinder engine is probably more fragile than most, but I was getting tailgated on the expressway this evening and allowed my speed to creep up around 100. Burning smells ensued (not necessarily from the car, Taiwan has a lot of burning smells) so I got off the expressway and took slower roads home.

Car started making exhaust-blowing noises, which I attributed to a blown exhaust. I'd noticed it had got a lot rustier earlier that day. Stopped but couldn't see a leak in the dark without a torch. Noise got worse. Close to home, seemed to loose a bit of power, so maybe not just a blowing exhaust.

Back home, with torch, still can't see an exhaust leak, but note there is no coolant in the reservoir. Was at the full line this morning.

That's head gasket, and/or warped head, isn't it?

(No sign of coolant on the dipstick)

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - hardway

You've cooked it,


As stated head gasket or head/block.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - Oli rag

I hope not. I like the tales of alternative repairs on a shoestring.

Suspect you will probably manage to get it limping along again after the use of some previously unknown " magic repair".

Best of luck.

Edited by Oli rag on 05/03/2017 at 19:19

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Bit puzzled this morning. Coolant reservoir was at the full line.

Clue might be that the rad was brimming, so there was some spillage when replacing the cap. Not seen it like that before.

Best guess is combustion gases in the cooling system displacing coolant.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - John F

Many years ago in the days when old head gaskets failed around 100,000m - or even fewer if it was a British made car, I had a Passat which had done about 150,000m. Machines tend to loosen up after many years of use and vibration, so I thought I might try to insure against one of the most common reasons for engine failure. When the engine was still warm I 'uncracked' the head bolts one by one and retorqued them. When I eventually sold it, it had done over 240,000m.

So you could try that on your Skywing - it sounds as though you have nothing much to lose as the damage may have been done.

I wonder if the dreadful K-series engines would have lasted longer if this had been done every 20,000m?

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - gordonbennet

Good point JohnF, didn't we used to re-torque heads so long after a gasket change?

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Had a look at lunchtime. Bit rushed but won't have another chance until the weekend. Not certain, but room for guarded optimism.

Drained the coolant and then refilled it, because I wanted to get an idea how much was left. Howling gale blew up while I was pouring it back (What are the chances, eh? Well about 100% IME) so I lost a bit, but still had some left over. This suggests:

(a) Coolant leakage/loss, if any, MIGHT have been fairly limited.

(b) This engine suffers from air pockets when refilled (with hose "burping"). Not good, but it might go some way to explain the "now you see it, now you don't" coolant, assuming I wasn't just hallucinating.

Took the plugs out and turned the engine over. Plugs weren't wet and nothing spat out of the plugholes.

Wedged a funnel in the radiator filler and started the engine. It did blow bubbles, and hadn't entirely stopped when the coolant started to steam/I ran out of time, but it wasn't violent and I already knew for a fact there was air in there, so it may not be evidence of a head gasket problem.

Also encouraging was the fact that the exhaust appeared to be blowing from where it joins the exhaust manifold. Too inaccessible when hot to be sure but IIRC one of the bolts was a bit unconvincing due to thread corrosion, and might have let go, causing failure of my home made gasket. If that's the case it SHOULD be a fairly easy and cheap fix.

So maybe I'm the old geezeer that cried wolf. We'll see

Edited by edlithgow on 06/03/2017 at 10:55

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - bolt

Increase in revs was more than you normaly do and pump was pushing some of the air out and pulling water in to replace it

some engines can take a long time to get rid of air locks if the revs aren`t used,used to get that with certain BMC engines, ie driving around town it was perfect, then hit the motorway and overheating due to airlock displacement

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Re routine re-torquing, interesting idea, if you don't have single-use head bolts.

I don't thnk this car does, but I believe a lot of more recent engines (e.g. my Sierra) did.

IF I've dodged the bullet this time around I MIGHT just leave it for a while, but its certainly something to consider.

If not, then, as you say, not much to lose.

However, I was told by the previous owners that this car had suffered what sounded like a head gasket failure in the past, so it may not be very many miles since it was last torqued down.

Edited by edlithgow on 06/03/2017 at 11:09

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - John F

Re routine re-torquing, interesting idea, if you don't have single-use head bolts.

The Daihatsu 993cc is 40 - 47ftlb in three stages which seems a tiny amount of torque to ensure coolant continence. Most VW engines seem to be up to 44, then 90 degrees, then another 90 degrees! Goodness knows how much torque it takes to do that, although apparently the 'stretchy' bolts which require this procedure make you think they are shearing. So I guess yours aren't the stretchy ones and they probably aren't clamping the head tightly now!

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - John F

Good point JohnF, didn't we used to re-torque heads so long after a gasket change?

Yes, I remember the advice after a head-off job was to run it up to temperature then retorque when still warm. I suppose the modern 'stretch' bolts cope with far greater tightening torque and maintain their elasticity better than those of yore, so my 'insurance' procedure would probably be foolish nowadays.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

I did a bit of internyeting on re-torquing. Seems to be another controversial topic (surprise!).

Areas of uncertainty include:-

Should you do it at all? - As a generalisation, current industry majority opinion seems to be no. Even without TTY head bolts, many (most?) gaskets are now designed to crush once, and are allegedly unsuitable for re-torqueing.

IF you do it, should you loosen and re-torque, or just re-torque? - I've seen it argued that the loosening serves no purpose and that re-torquing is basically just checking the torque.

IF you do it, should it be done hot or cold? - I've seen cold suggested for aluminium heads and hot for cast iron.

Rather unclear from a quick look.and would need researched fairly carefully, bearing in mind that current recieved opinion might not apply to one's particular old-car case..

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - John F

IF you do it, should you loosen and re-torque, or just re-torque? - I've seen it argued that the loosening serves no purpose and that re-torquing is basically just checking the torque.

You will probably have to exert far more than the advised torque just to 'crack' them loose, even if they are now exerting far less clamping force on the head than they should be.

Once loosened (assuming they haven't sheared!) I would go anticlockwise 60- 90deg, then tighten till my cheap old bendy bar torque wrench was at or just above the prescribed torque. Having not removed it during the whole procedure I would be able to see roughly how many more degrees I was able to tighten it.

IF you do it, should it be done hot or cold? - I've seen cold suggested for aluminium heads and hot for cast iron.

They are less likely to shear the hotter they are - up to temperatures never reached in a car engine! I'd do it when warm. Good luck!

Rather unclear from a quick look.and would need researched fairly carefully, bearing in mind that current recieved opinion might not apply to one's particular old-car case..

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - liammcl

when I did my timing belt

I used the same gasket (with a blob of lucky instant gasket as there was a chunk missing)
and the same stretch bolts

They were tightened up to spec, and then I went another 45 degrees.

50,000 miles on, and it is still the performance car it once was... and we still go racing milk floats :)

Cheers
Liam

Edited by liammcl on 07/03/2017 at 13:24

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - Wackyracer

IF you do it, should it be done hot or cold? - I've seen cold suggested for aluminium heads and hot for cast iron.

Personally, I would stick to the manufacturers proceedures unless you find someone who has been working on this specific engine for decades and knows better.

Cold torqueing for aluminium heads makes more sense as when the head is hot the expansion of the head should exert more force on the gasket.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - skidpan

Personally, I would stick to the manufacturers proceedures

Manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products so I 100% agree with the above. The only exception would be if the manufacturer of an aftermarket product recomended a different proceedure.

All will insist on new headbolts if they are of the strech type.

If you are planning on doing it anyway except the correct way don't bother and scrap it.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - bathtub tom
Manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products

BL K series?

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - gordonbennet
Manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products

BL K series?

Various German timing chains, balance shafts, oil pump drives etc etc.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow
Manufacturers do know a thing or two about their products

BL K series?

Various German timing chains, balance shafts, oil pump drives etc etc.

Ford Explorer tyre (rollover) pressures.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - skidpan

BL K series?

The K series was long after BL morphed into Austin Rover or even possibly just Rover,

In fairness it was a great engine and in the original 1.4 size reliable, the Caterham 1.4 race cars with sealed production engines rarely gave problems. Only when they stretched to it 1.6 and then 1.8 did the problems really begin. It was no better in KV6 form.

I very nearly fitted one to my Caterham but having Ford DNA in my body mean't only another Ford engine would do the job.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - Avant

What a fascinating thought, Skidpan, of 'Ford DNA in your body'!

I do hope that's not pre-Parry-Jones Ford - a sort of sluggish, side-valve, six-volt feeling of reluctance to get going in the morning and to perform any way other than leisurely for rthe rest of the day. I hope it's more like modern Fords which still get on with the job but in doing so perform enjoyably and above expectations.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

What a fascinating thought, Skidpan, of 'Ford DNA in your body'!

I

Think that's where they got the "planned obsolescence" idea from.

Reverse Engineering.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - Wackyracer

What a fascinating thought, Skidpan, of 'Ford DNA in your body'!

Even more fascinating that his last 6 daily drivers have been VAG cars.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Tried running it and feeling the top radiator hose and there wasn't (to me) a clear indication that it was pressurising or pulsing.

I then ran it for a while (maybe 10 minutes) with a funnel in the radiator cap. This time it didn't seem to blow any bubbles until I switched it off, and I suppose that might have been local boiling at a hot spot, but it did seem to expand more, almost filling the funnel (see faint tide mark in first photo). I'd guess this much expansion might imply there is still quite a lot of trapped air in there.

[url=servimg.com/view/18149521/266][img]i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/14/95/21/th/img_7514.jpg[/img][/url]

After I turned it off, it took quite a while to contract again, and left quite a lot of sediment. I wonder if it would be worth draining it again and letting this stuff settle out, assuming it doesn't include anything useful, like anti-corrosion components.

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One of the three bolts in the exhaust flange is missing, which is probably why its blowing. Access is worse than it looks in these pictures, since that corner of the flange is up against the front engine mount.

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The empty bolt hole is in shadow, on the left of the picture.

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Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - skidpan

Regarding the post above from Mr Wackracer

Even more fascinating that his last 6 daily drivers have been VAG cars.

I would suggest that he reads my posts carefully before making untrue statements. I have never said my last 6 daily drivers have been VAG cars, what I said in the post I presume he is referring to was

We have had 6 VAG cars (4 have been VW's) since 1986.

To put the record strait since 1986 we have had the following cars (not in any particular order). All were bought new except for the Mondeo and Puma which were pre reg, less than a week old with delivery miles at huge discounts and a Nissan Bluebird which was 2 years old and bought from the wifes employer for peanuts.

6 VAG cars

4 Nissans

3 Fords

1 BMW

1 Kia

1 Mini

The last 6 we have bought have been 2 VAG, 1 Kia, 1 BMW, 1 Ford, 1 Nissan.

As for reliability they have all been fine. The only breakdowns we have suffered have been a fuel pump on the 4 week old 1986 Golf (bad batch from Bosch - VW, BMW and Peugeot all had the same issues at the time) and a clutch slave cylinder on the Bluebird @ 90,000 and 7 years old.

The one with the most niggles and spent most time at the dealers was the Mini Cooper S. BMW had obviously carefully researched the original Mini's many faults and tried to replicate the oil leak issues as closely as possible. Still leaking when we PX't for the BMW 1 Series.

Also for the record I will say the out of all the above the best all round car was the 2013 Seat Leon 1.4 TSi 140 and I will continue to recommend that car on this forum for the forseable future to anyone looking for a mid sized hatch. The BMW 118D was also a great car but I guess its not for everyone plus the Leon is way better for less money.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - Wackyracer

Regarding the post above from Mr Wackyracer

Even more fascinating that his last 6 daily drivers have been VAG cars.

I would suggest that he reads my posts carefully before making untrue statements. I have never said my last 6 daily drivers have been VAG cars, what I said in the post I presume he is referring to was

We have had 6 VAG cars (4 have been VW's) since 1986.

To put the record strait since 1986 we have had the following cars (not in any particular order). All were bought new except for the Mondeo and Puma which were pre reg, less than a week old with delivery miles at huge discounts and a Nissan Bluebird which was 2 years old and bought from the wifes employer for peanuts.

I stand corrected! I seem to remember you having a Nissan now you mention it.

The only person I can ever recall knowing, who had what you would call "Ford DNA in his blood" had Ford Escorts since I first knew him in 1972 right upto the end of production of the Escort and then bought Focus's after that. I often questioned his loyalty to the Escort (as in my opinion some of the later ones were awful cars).

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Given the state of my nearside suspension, I think I might have Morris Marina DNA in my knees, if not in my blood.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

There'll be a bit of a delay, because it looks like I've lost/had stolen quite a lot of my tools, which I'll need to fix this.

I have to work in public areas, and since things don't tend to get stolen much here, I've got relatively casual about packing things away (much more than I was, or could have been in the UK), sometimes even leaving tools in the car overnight.

I just stopped getting away with it.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Fitted a home-made exhaust gasket which seems to be holding from a 20k or so test drive, though I didn't go above 80 kph

There was some sign of coolant loss from the overflow reservoir overflow, so I'm still not sure about the head gasket.

I'll fit an overflow bottle so I can monitor (and conserve) loss, but I think I probably need to pressure test the cooling system.

Never really thought about the rad cap properly before, but as far as I can tell, I ought to be able to pressurise the system via the overflow hose.

If I want to monitor the pressure loss I'll have to add a schrader valve so I can put a tyre guage on it.

Am I missing anything?

www.are.com.au/images/import11.jpg

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - galileo

Doesn't the overflow hose connect outside the pressure cap seal? If so, pressure from the overflow will just push the pressure cap seal onto its sealing face and not let pressure into the system.

You could pressurise the system through the rad drain plug if you could connect to it?

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Yes, but there has to be a return path so that the overflowed coolant can get sucked back into the radiator, and to avoid a potentally damaging vacuum inside the system

Assuming that diagram I linked to (no way to display here AFAIK) is accurate and typical, there's a return valve in the pressure cap seal, so I'm thinking a positive pressure outside it (its normally at atmospheric pressure, since the reservoir isn't sealed) would be equivalent to a negative pressure inside the radiator.

Or I'm wrong.

But if I'm right it should be a fairly easy way to pressurise the system.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

But if I'm right it should be a fairly easy way to pressurise the system.

Bit of googling shows some gadgets for this job, which are farly expensive, and don't test the radiator cap either.

There are also some noble DIY efforts which replace the radiator cap with a home-made plug.

As far as I can tell this is all completely unecessary.

Seems rather likely I'm missing something.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Compression test wasn't very informative, but then I didn't expect it to be, especially since I have the wrong adaptor for it and can only use the push-on cone.

Cyl l: 145, 150, 145

Cyl 2: 160 170, 120 (cranking slower due to battery low)

Cyl 3: 170, 160

Plug appearance showed marked bilateral asymmetry, which I havn't noticed before. Don't know how the plugs are oriented in the head (I'll mark them) but I suppose this could be ingested coolant cleaning one side. I've suspected its been running rich since I cleaned the carb, though, so it might just be that.

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First attempt at a coolant system pressure test was inconclusive too, since the radiator cap wouldn't hold pressure.

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I might break down and try and get a new radiator cap tomorrow, but I'm unconvinced this is the (or a) problem since I don't think the outer radiator cap sees pressure in normal use.

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Some pressure was getting into the system since I could feel and hear it releasing when I took the cap off, but of course I couldn't measure it.

To do that I'll probably have to make a separate pressure cap, though I might still be able to base it on the existing one if I improve its sealing.

Daihatsu Skywing - I Think I Killed It. - edlithgow

Some improvement but not there yet.

To misquote Henry Folland, "simplicate and add airtightness". I simplicated a bit and added some airtightness, but maybe not quite enough.

My first attempt to stop the rad cap leaking with RTV was unsuccessful, so I tried a rubber bung from a lab supplies shop. 20NT. I didn't have a cork borer so I used a piece of arrow shaft with cuts in it. The hole is off-centre because I was planning on having one for a bicycle pump and another for a guage.

[url=servimg.com/view/18149521/279][img]i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/14/95/21/th/img_7525.jpg[/img][/url]

Instead I used the overflow port for the guage, and my cheapo Mityvac substitute enema syringe (also bleeds brakes) for the pump.

[url=servimg.com/view/18149521/282][img]i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/14/95/21/th/img_7528.jpg[/img][/url].

Fully compressed, the syringe gives just over 10 psi, bit lower than operating pressure but FSD on the guage anyway.

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"Somewhere" I've read 20% pressure loss in half an hour as the suggested criteria for diagnosing a leak. This rig showed about 4X that (40% in about 20 mins) so I've got a leak, but it might be in the apparatus rather than the car.

One further possibility for "simplicating and adding more airtightness" would be to get a smaller bung which could seal where the rad cap does, (eliminating the overflow from the system) and combining the pump and the guage so theres only one hole in it.

The syringe can also act as a guage of sorts, since uncompressed it "rebounds", though it doesn't rebound all the way, and maintains about 1.5 psi unloaded.

"Rebound" syringe at T=0

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"Rebound" pressure at T=0

[url=servimg.com/view/18149521/284][img]i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/14/95/21/th/img_7530.jpg[/img][/url]

If I'm still losing pressure, I could perhaps try and factor out leakage from the apparatus by sticking it in a partly water filled bottle, which could be assumed not to leak, so any excess of car v. bottle would be down to the cooling system.

 

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