Autonomous cars

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 13:51
Autonomous cars - papakevkev

Prepare for a rant...

I am interested to find the views of the forum on the subject of self-driving cars. My view is that research should be put into making cars safer before investing money into such a ridiculous concept. There has already been a fatality because a driver thought his car could drive itself. It couldn't spot a lorry coming at it from the side, though. Yes, I know it is very clever technology, but just because it is possible, doesn't mean it should be used. We can build build nuclear bombs but...

What I think manufacturers should be putting their efforts into is improving primary safety. At the moment efforts seem to be about making cars safer in an accident. How about making cars easier to drive and therefore lessening the chance of an accident occurring in the first place.

My current bugbear is the way manufacturers are placing a car's control functions on a screen rather than control knobs. The concentration required to operate such systems is much the same as that required to use a mobile phone. Dangerous, I reckon.

Controls should be such that they can be used without being distracted from driving. Simple large pushbuttons should be used instead of anything that requires concentration to use.

Whatever happened to 'ergonomics' in dashboard design? That is the placement of controls such they can being seen/operated without distracting the driver in any way. Such considerations seem to have been cast aside and car controls are now too complicated for safe operation.

And don't get me started on heated windscreens only being avaiable as extra-cost options.

Come on folks... Who agrees/disagrees?

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 15:02
Autonomous cars - RobJP

The stupid practice of putting all controls on a touchscreen appears to be dying out - a short-lived fad, thankfully.

Regarding the fatality when letting an autonomous car drive itself, (I believe a HGV and Tesla collision in the USA), I seem to recall that the vehicle systems showed there had been no contact on the steering wheel for some minutes prior to the accident. Unfortunately, there still is 'no cure for stupid'.

Regards heated screens : as far as I'm aware, there isn't a car on sale in the UK that doesn't have a heated rear screen. A heated front screen, on the other hand, is not a necessity - the airflow and warmth from the vents inside the car will ensure it stays clear, whereas a rear screen could 'mist up' on the inside due to lack of such airflow. So no, I see no need for that to be mandatory.

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 18:55
Autonomous cars - papakevkev

I live in Scotland. That is reason enough to make heated windscreens standard. Joking aside, I have yet to own a car that has a decent quick demist/deice system. I don't think they need to be mandatory, but it annoys me so much that this undoubtedly sensible feature is considered less important than cruise control for example.

My current car is a Fiat 500L and the windscreen clears reasonably well... on the passenger side. I am guessing that the system was set up for a left hand drive vehicle and it wasn't altered for right hand drive.

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 15:20
Autonomous cars - Bolt

Prepare for a rant...

I am interested to find the views of the forum on the subject of self-driving cars. My view is that research should be put into making cars safer before investing money into such a ridiculous concept. There has already been a fatality because a driver thought his car could drive itself. It couldn't spot a lorry coming at it from the side, though. Yes, I know it is very clever technology, but just because it is possible, doesn't mean it should be used. We can build build nuclear bombs but...

What I think manufacturers should be putting their efforts into is improving primary safety. At the moment efforts seem to be about making cars safer in an accident. How about making cars easier to drive and therefore lessening the chance of an accident occurring in the first place.

My current bugbear is the way manufacturers are placing a car's control functions on a screen rather than control knobs. The concentration required to operate such systems is much the same as that required to use a mobile phone. Dangerous, I reckon.

Controls should be such that they can be used without being distracted from driving. Simple large pushbuttons should be used instead of anything that requires concentration to use.

Whatever happened to 'ergonomics' in dashboard design? That is the placement of controls such they can being seen/operated without distracting the driver in any way. Such considerations seem to have been cast aside and car controls are now too complicated for safe operation.

And don't get me started on heated windscreens only being avaiable as extra-cost options.

Come on folks... Who agrees/disagrees?

I am aware that a lot of people do not agree with the idea of a self driving car and I am one.

however, I think, and this maybe what the americans may be thinking of at the moment, is concentrate on using these cars to assist those that are not able to drive themselves for whatever reason.

This I gather is because the makers do not think the takeup of these cars is going according to plan,(they were expecting more interest than has been given so far) so if they help assist those that are not able to drive themselves.

I dont have a problem with the Civic dash so am happy with that, but it could use an electric heated front screen

more people later on may take them up, IMO I doubt they will take off excepting for the people that cannot drive themselves, but I may be wrong I usually am..

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 15:51
Autonomous cars - Pondlife

Luddites! Things like this open-sourced retro-fit autopilot are the future:

arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/12/after-mothballing-c.../

What's not to like? Instead of having boy racers fitting blue LEDs in their windscreen washer jets; we'll have geeks using raspberry PIs to drive their car. And we'll like it!

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 17:17
Autonomous cars - Bolt

Luddites! Things like this open-sourced retro-fit autopilot are the future:

arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2016/12/after-mothballing-c.../

What's not to like? Instead of having boy racers fitting blue LEDs in their windscreen washer jets; we'll have geeks using raspberry PIs to drive their car. And we'll like it!

I think I`d rather have a bunch of computers drive me than idiots controling my car from there sofa.

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 17:23
Autonomous cars - skidpan

If the Americans are as dumb as the president they elected they need all the help they can get.

But as was stated above, "there ain't no cure for stupid".

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 22:37
Autonomous cars - Sofa Spud

I think it will be a long, long time before fully self-driving cars for public highways break out of the testing and demonstration phase but they will probably go mainstream eventually.

Spin-off from self-driving technology is already finding its way onto production cars and this trend is likely to continue, with collision avoidance, sophisticated navigation and intelligent speed control that keeps a car within the appropriate speed limit. Eventually the driver assistance will become so proven and sophisticated that it would only be a small technological step to go all the way to fully autonomous.

The development of the autonomous car is simultaneous with that of the electric cars. But while electric car sales look poised to surge ahead like a Tesla P100D, fully autonomous cars aren't even near the starting line yet!

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 23:12
Autonomous cars - Terry W

Autonomous cars need not be perfect, merely better than their human alternative.

Any accident will have masses of data to ensure the causes are understood and corrective action taken - in stark contrast to the typical human response.

Computers do not phone, text, get tired, drive drunk/drugged, get stressed by partners or bosses. They don't worry about money, healtth, get distracted and behave consistently.

I personally enjoy most aspects of driving but know that at the wrong side of 60 I have grown up in an era where car ownership was associated with status, freedom and personal control.

Increasingly the sub 30 age group and many above see them as functional items only, not objects of desire. Autonomous cars may even lead people to only use on demand (a la uber) rather than actually own one which is immobile for 23 out of 24 hours!

The only question in my mind is when, not if, they (a) start to be used for specialised areas (eg taxis), and when they become an acceptable choice for general use. My guess is 2-4 years for the former and possibly 3-6 for the latter.

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 23:26
Autonomous cars - gordonbennet

Decades away for general use, lorry 'platooning' is a likely contender for first use.

I hope everyone is ready for the downsides of this, for example it will be an interesting experience on the open road when a string of lorries are trundling along together on icing roads and one of several decide to brake for no apparent reason, which these systems do now and again.

The stumbling block will be legal responsibility, who's to blame when an automated vehicle crashes, designer, builder or as will be the case, the driver whether on board or piloting remotely. As always lawyers will do very nicely, and electrical mechanics will never have it so good because these vehicles will be a nightmare.

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Sat 4 Mar 2017 23:59
Autonomous cars - Terry W

Insurance - I think this could be a bit of a red herring.

For any complex piece of machinery the manufacturer generally warrants that it is fit for purpose providing it is operated, inspected and maintained in accordance with their recommendations.

I don't see why this should be different for autonomous vehicles - although I suspect initially there will be some court cases to resolve some of the basic rules - eg: can the vehicle be serviced by a suitably qualified independent, if a vehicle is sold as being "autonomous" to what extent do those on board have responsibility for its actions..

An odd thought - if responsibility rests mainly with the manufacturer it is they who will have to bear the insurance costs. These are likely to be relatively high for the first few years. Owner premiums should be low. Therefore expect first cars to be either leased or come with hefty software licence fees.

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 00:09
Autonomous cars - daveyK_UK

autonomous vehicles are fanstastic and should be encouraged.

When autonomous vehicles are ready, to get the best impact all non autonomous vehicles should be banned from the roads

Sadly, i fear there are to many people invested in the status quo who will try to slow down progress such as unions, politicians, the EU (which is ran in the interest of german manufacturers) and people who lose their job And dont get offered alternative employment.

Its important governments start planning now for the autonomous future and what we will do with millions of drivers, etc

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 00:11
Autonomous cars - Bolt

Can you imagine the loss of jobs if Autonomous cars, vans, hgvs, become mainstream in a short space of time.

some companies are looking 2020 for cars, which may put taxi drivers and some delivery drivers out of work, as all the recipient has to do is collect from car and it drives on to next address, the same could happen with a van/later with hgv

I wonder who will fork out the unemployment benefit then?

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 00:26
Autonomous cars - brum

I think I have owned autonomous cars for years. Often I get to where I am going without any recollection of actually driving the car and how and by what route I got there.

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 08:22
Autonomous cars - gordonbennet

Going to be an interesting future, which i'm glad i won't be around to see, its not going to happen that quickly despite the predictions here, the current automatic braking has too many false alarms in lorry world (if truth be told it probably does in car worl too), that alone will take many years to correct for there are just too many variables for the programming to account for, the shift to self steering on our ever more crowded roads will take decades if ever to perfect.

A lorry stopping dead for no good reason, they do, is one thing, be an intersting scene when a (by then) loaded 52/56 ton gross vehicle decides its seen something and swerves hard right and other auomatons react accordingly, you don't need much of an imagination to see what could happen, when it does the pointy heads will have to calm their ambitions down a bit.

The trouble with automation is that there will come a tipping point when those put out of work outnumber those in net contributing jobs, by definition each citizen being subsidised by the state (us) is a loss maker, how exactly do we repay the unpayable national debt with a spiralling welfare state taking on more customers.

Those out of work won't be buying new cars or anything else with their own money, the thought of an overpopulated largely idle island with an out of control economy is a nightmare scenario when national credit finally runs out.

I suspect the strive to automation will be a self limiting thing.

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 08:22
Autonomous cars - oldroverboy.

I think I have owned autonomous cars for years. Often I get to where I am going without any recollection of actually driving the car and how and by what route I got there.

DITTO!

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 09:53
Autonomous cars - expat

Decades away for general use, lorry 'platooning' is a likely contender for first use.

Platooning is not needed. We have road trains in Australia which is really platooning. Three trailers towed by one prime mover. Obviously it needs to be highly regulated - only on licenced routes like motorways, specially trained and licenced drivers, prime movers certified as sufficiently powerful and with adequate brakes. That is what is done in Australia and it works fine here.

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 10:23
Autonomous cars - Sofa Spud

Decades away for general use, lorry 'platooning' is a likely contender for first use.

Platooning is not needed. We have road trains in Australia which is really platooning. Three trailers towed by one prime mover. Obviously it needs to be highly regulated - only on licenced routes like motorways, specially trained and licenced drivers, prime movers certified as sufficiently powerful and with adequate brakes. That is what is done in Australia and it works fine here.

With better freight interchange facilities a lot more long-distance freight could go by rail. Driverless freight trains and automated freight terminals will be with us long before autonomous lorries are. Problem solved !

As I said before, I think mainstream autonomous cars are a long way in the future but they will probably happen eventually. And when they do, and start to become more commonplace, the road network and traffic control technology will adapt to optimise it for autonomous cars.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 05/03/2017 at 10:32

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 11:11
Autonomous cars - Terry W

The real risk with the introduction of autonomous cars and the ability to fully analyse accident data is that we will quickly realise that homo sapiens are the prime cause of accidents.

As with older diesels legislation will rapidly outlaw conventional vehicles, starting with city centres, extending to motorways, and finally a general ban (some years away). The only people allowed to pilot themselves will be those who can demonstrate a high level of competencei through regular testing.

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Sun 5 Mar 2017 11:15
Autonomous cars - gordonbennet

Lord, please preserve us from the above vision of utopian hell, i can almost hear the robotised jackboots.

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