BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - logger

A fairly simple question but probably lots of different answers..lol

which is better ( around 06/07 ) 118D ( the 143BHP version) or the 120D

we like a bit of oomph hence the 143BHP but what about the 120D which I think is 177BHP

Main concerns is driving and reliability once vs the other

cheers

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - RobJP

We had a 2008/58 118d (143hp) which never felt lacking in 'oomph'

Do be aware that the original 118d was 122hp, and it changed to 143hp in late 2007/early 2008. So any of the age you've mentioned will be a 122hp.

The 120d was originally 163hp, and changed to 177hp also in late 07/early 08.

As to reliability, these engines - the N47, they're known as, are certainly not the best. Timing chain problems are relatively common, largely due to the extended service interval used by BMW (every 18-20k miles)

If you can find one that's been over-serviced (every 10k or so), then you're far less likely to have problems.

Have a careful read here : www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/bmw/1-series-e81e87-...d which gives you the reported problems.

As to driving, somewhat surprisingly, 'MSport' is the one to AVOID. SE spec, with softer suspension, smaller wheels and high-profile tyres, drive a lot better on our pothole-festooned roads. Don't touch anything with 18" or bigger wheels, it will destroy any comfort, and make the handling very twitchy.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

We had a 118D for 5 1/2 very happy years. It was a 2008 08 car, 143 PS and never left us wanting more. Averaged about 47 mpg over the years we had it. Might not sound great but it was 8 mpg better than a Mondeo with 13 less PS so we saw it as a massive improvement.

Before we bought it we tried the 120D just to make sure we bought the right car. We did not find a great deal of difference in normal driving (certainly not £2000 worth) but it should be noted that the cars have very different gearing. The 118D is much longer geared not only in top but all the intermediates which can resulty in dropping 2 gears instead of the one you might have to drop in the 120D, no deal breaker for us and once you are in the right gear the 118D goes well enough, you soon learn which gear is needed for the occational overtake. But this means that the 118D is a much more relaxed cruiser which is a feature you soon learn to enjoy. At motorway speeds there is no need to drop gears to change lane etc, 6th is just fine.

Ours was on 17" wheels with standard suspension and the ride was fine. But we had 16" wheels with winter tyres and it must be said the car felt much nicer with those on so I would recommend 16" wheels to any buyer.

With all these cars condition and history is vital. Don't be tempted to buy cheap, it will cost £ssssss extra in the long term.

What is your budget? Any 10 year old car is a potential money pit but at that age it won't have a DPF. Still has a DMF though and if its the original expect a big bill soon.

Edited by skidpan on 12/01/2017 at 09:27

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
These are potential money pits. DPF problems from 2007, swirl flaps (removed in 2009) break up and get ingested by the engine which kills it, turbo failure is common, worn and rattling timing chains, broken road springs etc etc.

Nice things to drive if you avoid wide wheels, ultra low profile tyres and M tec suspension and both the 118 & 120d's have plenty of go but there's loads that does go wrong on these as the age. You'll notice the number of early cars on the road is dwindling rapidly as costly failures are writing them off.

Not a car I'd buy but if you must then look for full dealer or genuine specialist service history, don't buy one without it. Backstreet garages and fast fit branches don't have a clue what they're doing with these and will kill it by using the wrong grade of oil. They don't take neglect well either so if there's no proof of annual oil changes walk away.

Brother in law bought one despite my negative comments and had nothing but hassle with it for the three months he had it. Dealer begrudgingly agreed to swap it for a newer Astra GTC 1.7 (Isuzu) diesel that's been faultless since and much more comfortable.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - logger

Thanks for that guys ( and ladies )

We would be buying an 06/07 car for about £5k. My wife just wants something a bit more stylish an dlikes the beamers

However, after seeing your comments I am beginning to wonder

What about a used 3 series vs C Class vs A4

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - Avant

The equivalents of the 1-series are the Audi A3 or Mercedes A-class. If you look at these, at your budget level I'd go for petrol rather than diesel.

I suppose that if Mrs Logger (Lumberjill?) wants something stylish, then a sensible suggestion like a Toyota Auris or Ford Focus isn't going to appeal. Maybe a Honda Civic (again petrol) or a smaller Volvo would be a little less mainstream, and you could always see if she likes the look of the Golf or SEAT Leon.

If you go for a Focus or any VW Group product, it needs to be a manual.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - logger

You're right !

She sees the BMW, Merc,A4 and the Lovely Alfa Romeo GT ( yes I know..but reviews aren't as bad as they seem ) as stylish...and she likes a bit if oomph !

Are we really going to lose that much money on a good one of any of these ? I have a 1.7dti Astra Van with 225k on the clock , never missed a beat

The Golf and Leon seem ok but again I have heard problems with the diesel engines

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - RobJP

The Audi diesel (2.0, 140hp) of that era was a bit of a nightmare too. Very prone to rounding off the oil pump driveshaft, and when that failed the entire engine lunched itself.

Merc ... well, they'd stopped over-engineering then, and were building everything as cheaply as they could. Plenty of problems there.

BMW we've slready covered.

You'd be well advised to go here : www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/

and check out the 'what's good/bad' in each of the car-by-car reviews.

Buy a 'premium' brand that's 8-10 years old, and half of your money is going on the car, and half is going on the badge. A failed timing chain on a BMW will cost £1000+ to put right. The same for the Audi/VW oil pump, if it fails (not to mention the terrible DSG autoboxes of that era, there's another big bill waiting to happen). As to the Merc, electrical gremlins are certainly not rare, and can be horribly difficult (read : expensive) to diagnose and fix.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
I really wouldn't recommend a premium brand diesel at this price point. You could and most likely would be buying a heap of expensive trouble.

If however the steering committee won't give ground and let you pick something more sensible like a 1.8 Honda Civic or 2.0 Accord then the least likely to go catastrophically wrong would be an A3/A4 with the old 1900 diesel (don't touch the 2.0!) and only if you can find one without a DPF which I think became standard from 2007.

Some conflicting advice on timing belts with these however with some saying it should be done every 4yrs and others at 75k with no age recommended. I'd say 5yrs or 70k at the latest and if it's not been done then factor in £300-£400 to have it done along with tensioners and water pump.

Otherwise they're noisy but fit for 500k with care.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - Steveieb
You mention the 1.9 Tdi engine SLO but can you advise how it is possible to identify a car with this engine but no DPF?
Also did all these engines have the electro magnetic injectors as opposed to the piezo crystal type that caused so much trouble in the Passat?
So is it safe to buy any car with this engine but no Dpf up to .2007 model year.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - RobJP

The 1.9 without DPF is usually 130hp

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

So is it safe to buy any car with this engine but no Dpf up to .2007 model year.

There is no such thing as a "safe" 10 year old car to buy. All will have issues but some will cost more to keep going than others.

About 20 years ago both myself and the wife had kept our last new cars just over 7 years. Hers had done 86000 miles and had been regularly serviced by a local garage owned by a trusted member of our local motor club. But as soon as it hits its 7th birthday big bill started appearing so we moved it on quickly. No doubt the person who bought thought he was getting a well looked after one owner car with a full history wheras in truth he was getting a car that was starting to become a money pit.

Mine hit 7 5 months later. It had done just over 110,000 miles and I had serviced it myself every 10,000 following the manufacturers schedule. I used genuine oils and filters plus the cam belt was done at 70,000 miles together with new front discs. The brakes had a full strip and overall, one exchange caliper was fitted. It had been fitted with 3 sets of front pads and a set of rears while I had owned it. As soon as it hit 7 the battery went, the exhaust blew and the gearbox started making one hell of a noise. Mate investigated and it was infact the diff side bearings that had failed which had chewed up the oil seals and dumped all the lubricant. Never saw a spot on the drive. So new bearings and a re-fill of oil and traded it. Over 20 years later the car is still on the road, no idea if its still got the original box/diff in it.

We both vowed at that point to never keep a car beyond 5 years again. Personally I prefer to pay a bit more out in capitol than in repairs and so far its worked. Never had a big bill since.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - bazza

Also the 105 1.9 PDs o not have DPF

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
I believe the Siemens peizo injectors were only fitted to the 2.0. As for spotting if a DPF was fitted, other than physically looking for it I don't know what engine no's to look out for. It was fitted to some 2007 A3's and I believe all 08 onwards but earlier 1.9's I think are safe. Don't think any A4 1.9's had it.

In an A3 if it falls below the 120g/km £20 tax band I believe you're looking at the 1.9e engine that had a DPF as standard. The non-DPF cars produced 138/143g/km and cost £130 to tax.

No matter how tempted, do not buy this engine with a DPF fitted! It's an old design and was never built with modern emissions control equipment like this in mind and thus the reason why it just doesn't gel well.

Edited by SLO76 on 12/01/2017 at 19:35

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - bazza

I have an 08 1.9 PD 105 in an Octavia and it doesn't have a DPF. It's the BXE code ( the one that supposedly has a conrod weakness). I'm 95% certain that no DPFs are fitted to this range.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76

I have an 08 1.9 PD 105 in an Octavia and it doesn't have a DPF. It's the BXE code ( the one that supposedly has a conrod weakness). I'm 95% certain that no DPFs are fitted to this range.

Yup, think you're right enough. Skoda were the last of the VAG firms to standardise DPF fitment and I think (could be wrong and often am) all the 1.9's avoided it. It only became law from 1/1/11 and even then manufacturers were allowed to carry on selling non-DPF equipped cars for up to a year after if they were already in the country.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

only became law from 1/1/11 and even then manufacturers were allowed to carry on selling non-DPF equipped cars for up to a year after if they were already in the country.

Wrong. Diesel cars not fitted with a dpf could not be registered after 31 Dec 2010. Only alternative for unsold cars was to pre reg.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76

"Wrong. Diesel cars not fitted with a dpf could not be registered after 31 Dec 2010. Only alternative for unsold cars was to pre reg."



I posted this in answer to you on this subject on another thread recently skidpan, I'm assuming you didn't see it.


Euro 5 came into force on 1st Jan 2011 however manufacturers were permitted to continue selling cars that were not compliant for up to 12mths afterward. Thus the reason why some CDTi Civics are registered on 11 and 61 plates. 7.2. Where a manufacturer has not placed on the market all vehicles complying with a previous emission standard (Euro 4 or Euro V) by the date from which the new limits (Euro 5 and Euro VI) apply, paragraph B of Annex XII of the framework Directive 2007/46/EC on vehicle type-approval permits Member States to apply “end of series” derogations to enable those vehicles to continue to be registered and to enter into service for up to 12 months from the date of implementation of a new standard. The purpose of this provision is to ease to the management of stock in the transition to new emissions standards.www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/427/pdfs/uksiem_2...f

Edited by SLO76 on 12/01/2017 at 21:41

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

Link does not work.

But I think there is some confusion here. Euro 5 became law for newly approved vehicles in September 2009 but manufacturers were allowed to continue selling existing models that were certified to Euro 4 until 31 Devember 2010.

That is why the Kia Ceed 1.6 CRDi (just an example I am familiar with) was able to continue being sold without a DPF and compliant to Euro 4 after September 2009. Our Ceed was the first Euro 5 car our dealer had delivered but at the time he still had Euro 4 cars in stock. These had to be registered before the end of December and his prices were vey keen. One remained unsold and was pre-registered and then sat on the forcourt.

During this period Kia introduced the Mk 3 Sportage and they had to be Euro 5 with DPF from day one since they were a new model and new approval.

The info below is taken from the AA web site

"The dates below are the implementation date for new vehicle type approvals. The dates in brackets are the implementation date for all new vehicle registrations, normally one year later, so a car registered between the two dates may meet the corresponding emissions standard and a car registered after the date in brackets will meet it."

Euro 5

September 2009 (January 2011)

Thus as I said above and in other posts while Euro 5 had an implementation date of September 2009 for new approvals the final date for vehicle registration for cars certified to Euro 4 was 01 January 2011.

Edited by skidpan on 13/01/2017 at 08:24

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
Here's that link again skidpan. www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/427/pdfs/uksiem_2...f
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

SLO76

The document in the link refers to goods vehicles in classes N1, N2 and N3. Any allowances made to the dates of vehicle registration do not apply to passenger vehicles in classes M1, M2 and M3.

So its totally irrelevant to DPFs on passenger cars.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76

SLO76

The document in the link refers to goods vehicles in classes N1, N2 and N3. Any allowances made to the dates of vehicle registration do not apply to passenger vehicles in classes M1, M2 and M3.

So its totally irrelevant to DPFs on passenger cars.

Skidpan... please read the thing starting from section 7. 7.1. For light duty vehicles (cars and light vans)
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
There's an easy way to verify what I'm talking about if you don't believe the link skidpan. Go find a late Honda Civic 2.2 CTDi registered on an 11 or 61 plate and physically look for a DPF... you won't find one.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - Avant

Looking through this and your other thread, Logger, unless I've missed something I don't think we've established why it that you and/or Mrs L are so keen on a diesel - particularly given your concerns about future Government policy.

If she is keen on a prestige badge, and a Honda Civic or VW Golf is still too downmarket, look for an Audi A3 or A4 with a petrol TFSI engine and manual transmission. The economy on these isn't far off a diesel, and as long as you avoid the short-lived (in every sense) version with turbo- and super-charging, you could do well.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

Skidpan... please read the thing starting from section 7. 7.1. For light duty vehicles (cars and light vans)

OK, I have read it again.

7.7.1 refers to light duty vehicles (cars and light vans) because that is what Directives referred to relate to.

BUT

7.3 clearly states "These regulations give effect to this derogation for category N1 class I, N2 and N3 vehicles"

and

7.4 states "...offers two possibilities for end of series derogation in respect of category N (goods) vehicles:...."

No mention of M class passenger vehicles at all.

On page 5 it gives the definitions of a category N vehicle but not of a category M vehicle.

So like I said before its nothing to do with passenger vehicles (M2, M2 and M3) its only light commercials (N1, N2 and N3).

I could go on giving examples of Category N only references but surely the above are sufficient.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
You're wrong on this skidpan. Manufacturers were able to apply for an extension of up to a year to clear stocks of cars that weren't compliant.

Contact your nearest Honda service dept and ask if the Civic 2.2 CTDi ever had a DPF or go look at one for yourself. Here's a 2011 registered example with no DPF for you to check out or use its reg no to verify with Honda. Auto Trader #DrivenByMe
www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20160729630...2
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan
You're wrong on this skidpan.

Afraid not.

The document is clear.

No point discussing further.

Even your beloved Honda cannot manipulate the law for their own requirements.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
The proof is even on the road for you to see as I've shown. Civic 2.2 CDTi engine never had a DPF yet there are cars registered after the 1/1/11 date as I've shown.

Again... call a dealer to verify what I'm saying instead of continuing to give people advice based on incorrect information. We all make mistakes but to carry on making them when it's been shown how you can check your facts is pointless.

There is a point in discussing further skidpan as this question will pop up regularly and you'll continue to give flawed inaccurate answers based on this.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan
There is a point in discussing further skidpan as this question will pop up regularly and you'll continue to give flawed inaccurate answers based on this.

What worries me is you continue to tell potential buyers that some cars did not have a DPF when the law clearly required them to have one.

I will say it again, the document clearly states that the exemptions are only for N1, N2 and N3 vehicles. I spent years reading and modifying legal documents (not motor industry) for specific needs and if any company had tried to claim that such a docuemnt included M1 vehicles they would have lost.

Any class M1 passenger vehicle registered from 01 January 2011 onwards not fitted with a DPF should be removed from the road.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
Read page 11 skidpan.
www.dft.gov.uk/vca/additional/files/legislation/in...f

"If you have stocks of vehicles still unsold which will not comply with the requirements of the Directive listed, then we can allow a further period of 12 months from the specified ‘must comply’ date during which the vehicle can enter into service (18 months in the case of a ‘multi-stage’ vehicle, for instance one which is built by one company and completed by another). To encourage an early move to the newer standard, this allowance can only be given for vehicles covered by an EC certificate of conformity which remains valid for three months or more before the date specified in the Directive. As an example, if a Directive specifies that a vehicle must comply by 1/1/2011, we can allow derogation ONLY for vehicles which have a COC issued before 1/10/2010. A vehicle manufactured on or after 1/10/2010 that does not comply with the new standard must be registered before 1/1/2011."

"You may apply for an extra 12 months in which to register vehicles that do not comply with any new standard as shown on the calendar above. Derogation will be for up to 10% of the total number of the manufacturer’s vehicles registered during the previous 12 months of the into-force date of the new standard. Vehicles must be manufactured before the into force date of the new standard. Where 10% would be less than 50, 50 vehicles may be derogated."

Again if not convinced by the legal proof then feel free to enquire with Honda themselves how cars they've registered after 1/1/11 were permitted on the road without being Euro 5 compliant. There are other examples such as the Kia Rio 1.5 diesel which a small number were sold this way in 2011 also.



Edited by SLO76 on 14/01/2017 at 09:30

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

SLO76

Please stop posting links to irrelevant documents.

The one above was published in March 2012, 15 months after the final implementation date for Euro 5.

Your 2nd quote is for low volume production vehicles such as Morgans and Caterhams so odes not apply to mainstream cars.

Need I say more.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
You're just being ridiculous now.

Of course it was published after the date, it purpose was to provide guidance to possible future Type Approval developments based on then current legislation.


And where in the following does it mention anything regarding low volume manufacturers?

"You may apply for an extra 12 months in which to register vehicles that do not comply with any new standard as shown on the calendar above. Derogation will be for up to 10% of the total number of the manufacturer’s vehicles registered during the previous 12 months of the into-force date of the new standard. Vehicles must be manufactured before the into force date of the new standard. Where 10% would be less than 50, 50 vehicles may be derogated."

Now before carrying this any further I suggest you do as I've suggested and contact Honda themselves or at least a local service dept to confirm what I'm telling you.

Think rationally. If what you say was correct then there would be no Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi's (which had no DPF and were not Euro 5 compliant) registered in 2011 yet clearly there are which proves you're wrong!

Would be handy if Avant or perhaps HJ himself could confirm or deny this one. It's a question that will crop up regularly as people try to avoid DPF equipped cars and I'm sure everyone will tire of the two of us droning on every time.

Edited by SLO76 on 14/01/2017 at 17:44

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan
And where in the following does it mention anything regarding low volume manufacturers? "You may apply for an extra 12 months in which to register vehicles that do not comply with any new standard as shown on the calendar above. Derogation will be for up to 10% of the total number of the manufacturer’s vehicles registered during the previous 12 months of the into-force date of the new standard. Vehicles must be manufactured before the into force date of the new standard. Where 10% would be less than 50, 50 vehicles may be derogated."

Perhaps if you read the document you would have spotted that the section you quote has a heading

"For Car National type approval (Low-volume approved category M1 vehicles (cars) exempted from the requirements of ECWVTA)"

10% of Morgan sales in the UK would probably be 25 cars or less thus I can understand why there is a allowance, would probably amount to 50 as stated above.

For the record there are threads on the Civic forum relating to removing DPF on UK 2.2 CDT's as early as 08 plate. If the engine was never fitted with a DPF why would thay be having problems and wanting it out of the way. Surely the experts on the site would be saying there is no DPF if that is a fact.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
"For the record there are threads on the Civic forum relating to removing DPF on UK 2.2 CDT's as early as 08 plate. If the engine was never fitted with a DPF why would thay be having problems and wanting it out of the way. Surely the experts on the site would be saying there is no DPF if that is a fact."


Yeah I've read the "experts" on them talking nonsense before, one recently was telling everyone he'd had the DPF removed from his petrol 2.0 CRV...

Though fortunately they are in tune with the truth on this thread "There is no DPF fitted to UK spec 8th gen Civic...........thankfully."

"The new (9G) 2.2 does also IIRC. It's just the 8G that doesn't."

"This was one of the reasons that persuaded me to buy the 2.2 rather than a Mazda 6."


www.civinfo.com/forum/engines-transmission/98543-h...l


BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - Avant

"Would be handy if Avant or perhaps HJ himself could confirm or deny this one. It's a question that will crop up regularly as people try to avoid DPF equipped cars and I'm sure everyone will tire of the two of us droning on every time. "

I'm just the moderator - I have no technical knowledge, unlike both of you who seem to be well-informed. I suggest one of you asks HJ himself (letters@honestjohn.co.uk): he may be able to settle it!

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

I will repeat myself once more then simply give up if others cannot understand the simple text in the link below that was posted by SLO76.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/427/pdfs/uksiem_2...f

Below is a slection of clauses but I would suggest anyone reads the full document to show I have carried out no selective editing.

2. Purpose of the Instrument

2.1. These Regulations define the conditions under which goods vehicles in categories N1 Class 1, N2 and N3 may be regarded as end of series vehicles and consequently be entitled to an exemption from compliance with new emissions standards for 12 months after those standards are introduced

2.2. For category N1 class 1 vehicles the relevant date from which new emissions standards took effect was 1 January 2011, and for classes N2 and N3 vehicles the relevant date is 31 December 2013

Please find where there is any mention of passenger vehicles category M in the above clause, it only goods vehicles in cetegory N.

4.2. In the case of category N1 class 1 vehicles (car-derived vans) that have been type-approved to the Euro 4 emission standard, the derogation is from the Euro 5 standard that took effect on 1 January 2011. For categories N2 and N3 vehicles (heavy goods vehicles) that have been type-approved to the Euro V standard, the derogation is against the requirements of the Euro VI standard that will take effect after 31 December 2013

All category N again.

7.1. For light duty vehicles (cars and light vans), Directive 70/220/EEC as last amended by Directive 2002/80/EC prescribed emission standards for vehicles at the level of Euro 4. This directive has been superseded by Regulation EC No 715/2007 that introduces the Euro 5 and Euro 6 emissions limits. Article 10 of Regulation EC No 715/2007 requires that new vehicles in N1 Class 1 shall comply with the Euro 5 emission limits from 1 January 2011. For heavier duty goods vehicles in categories N2 and N3, the relevant directives 2005/55/EC, 2005/78/EC, and 2006/51/EC will be superseded by Regulation EC No 595/2009 that requires that new vehicles shall comply with the emission limits of Euro VI after 31 December 2013.

7.2. Where a manufacturer has not placed on the market all vehicles complying with a previous emission standard (Euro 4 or Euro V) by the date from which the new limits (Euro 5 and Euro VI) apply, paragraph B of Annex XII of the framework Directive 2007/46/EC on vehicle type-approval permits Member States to apply “end of series” derogations to enable those vehicles to continue to be registered and to enter into service for up to 12 months from the date of implementation of a new standard. The purpose of this provision is to ease to the management of stock in the transition to new emissions standards.

7.3. These regulations give effect to this derogation for category N1 class I, N2 and N3 vehicles to prevent costs which vehicle manufacturers would incur road if remaining stocks of Euro 4 and Euro V vehicles could not be registered for use. Fuller details are given in the attached Regulatory Impact Assessment.

7.1 refers to light duty vehicles simply because that is what the directives are dealing with.

But

7.3 clearly states that the delay in implementing Euro 5 for end of run vehicles is for N1 class 1, N2 and N3, again absolutely no mention of category M vehicles.

7.4. Paragraph B of Annex XII of Directive 2007/46/EC offers two possibilities for end of series derogation in respect of category N (goods) vehicles:

This clause discusses the alternatives but its clearly only refering to category N (goods) vehicles

On pages 8 to 20 there are many regerences makde the category N vehicles but none is made to Category M vehicles.

Please read the full linked document and enlighten me where its relevant to a Honda Civic which is in Category M1.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
Ive sent a wee email to HJ and Honda customer services to see if we can get confirmation on this either way skidpan. It's a question I'm often asked by people wanting to avoid the dreaded DPF.

I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong as I'm sure you are too.

Edited by SLO76 on 15/01/2017 at 17:55

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

When we bought the wifes previous car mid 2010 we wanted another diesel to replace the C-Max but did not want a DPF due to her 5 mile commute across town. We were very flexible on brands and even considered petrols to avoid the DPF but all had issues for us.

We even visited the Honda showroom having been totally underwealmed with a test drive a Civic 2.2 diesel in 2007 (mainly because of the stupid tyres and stupid test drive route - 3 miles of speed humps in a 4 mile drive!!!!!). Said we did not want a DPF and all he could offer were (well) used Civics, FRV's and (I think) CRV's.

So based on that, the document you linked to and the fact that local garages were pre-registering Euro 4 diesels by the bucket load late in 2010 I feel 100% confident that whilst vans had a dispensation cars did not.

In my opinion none should have had a dispensation, polution kills so why make a law and then allow manufacturers to ignore it.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
The idea was to reduce the financial impact on manufacturers but yup I agree they should've planned ahead and stopped production earlier but I fully understand why they wouldn't want to reengineer it to take a DPF when it was about to be replaced.

I'll post any reply I get on here and whomever is wrong shall be gracious in defeat
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

I have carried out another google and found the following document.

www.dft.gov.uk/vca/legislation/end-of-series-derog...p

Its a process for manufacturers to apply for approval to carry on selling vehicles made to the previous standard after the introduction of the new standard.

But in simple terms it would have been of no use to Honda if they wished to continue selling Euro 4 Civic diesels after January 2011 on couple of counts.

1 "This is so that manufacturers facing economic or technical difficulties in complying with the incoming standards have extra time to sell off any stocks made to the previous standards."

Don't think Honda would qualify for either reason.

2 "Vehicles manufactured three months before the legislation comes into force"

Would Honda have made sufficient Civics before the end of September 2010 to place them into stock and continue selling late them into 2011 or even into 2012 - up to the introduction of the new model. I thought they minimised new vehicle stock these days - surely the days of cars standing up to their axles in water for months or even years have long gone.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
I remember reading somewhere at the time that they were not going to re-engineer the car to take a DPF and were planning on simply ending production early leaving a gap without a diesel option. I'm certain they never had one but I can see the confusion on forums with this same debate going on.

I believe they overproduced stock and were left with a small number unsold cars by 1/1/11 and were granted an extension to continue selling and registering for up to a year after. Which is not what I'd expect from Honda and I wouldn't be too happy knowing my new car had been sat on a wet airfield for a year or so before delivery.

I sent the following email to HJ and received a quick answer which does point towards this and to me confirms the car never had a DPF fitted.

"As I understand it the Gen 8 Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi was never sold with a diesel particulate filter and yet there are some cars on sale that have been registered after 1/1/11, the implementation date of Euro 5 regs. I've read an extension was granted to allow non-compliant stock to be sold off but I'm having difficulty proving this."

Answer:

"That's what must have happened and what always happens. Happened with catalytic converters to for cars built before August 1992 that weren't sold until later when the extension was extended for 2 years. If you check the glass on a Civic 2.2iCDTI you'll probably find it was built in 2009. A lot of them sat on airfiled compounds for a year or more before they were sold."

HJ


I'm waiting on an answer from Honda themselves too.

Edited by SLO76 on 16/01/2017 at 10:22

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

Totally disgusting, if true.

Its surely a slurr on Honda's supossed excellent company reputation and makes the whole approval process a joke.

But why would our local Honda dealer tell me back in 2010 there were no new ones available.

Bet not may owners know their shiny new 2011 Civic was built in 2009.

I know for a fact Kia did not do this with the Ceed and Ford did not do it with the Focus/Mondeo so why should Honda have been allowed to do it. Euro 5 compliant Ceeds, Focus and Mondeo's started being produced July/August 2010 and the Euro 4 ones were being actively marketed into December. The dealer we bought or Ceed from in September 2010 had one Euro 4 CRDi on stock which was pre-registered late December, we consdiered it back in August but the colour was on our hate list.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
The Cee'd still had two years of life left in it plus it was a newer design probably made with it in mind so I suppose the sums just added up with regards to fitting one though I'm pretty certain the older Rio 1.5 diesel also didn't have one despite some 2011 registrations but I wonder why Honda were so slow to act when VAG, GM and Ford were all fitting them at least as options several years earlier.

They've also been slow on adopting small capacity petrol turbocharged engines too. Were they waiting until the technology had been perfected and wanted to learn from others mistakes? Certainly from the clever positioning of the DPF in our CRV and the lack of reports of problems with them I'd say it's likely and they've missed the damage these things have caused to the reputations of early adopters.

I'll be reminding anyone looking at a 2011 Civic diesel that the car is likely a 2009/10 build though.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan
Were they waiting until the technology had been perfected and wanted to learn from others mistakes?

Honda as a company have a history of technological inovation. They have never sat back and waited before so why on earth would they in this instance.

Certainly from the clever positioning of the DPF in our CRV

Other makes have positioned the DPF in a location that allows it to reach the high temepratures easily, the Kia Ceed is one example, my BMW 1 series was another. At the other extreme is the PSA 1.6 TDCi which needs the Eolys tank to enable regens because the DPF is virtually under the floor, possibly 3 feet from the turbo. Blame the fact that the engine was designed with the exhaust at the front for that, no space for the DPF next to the turbo.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
"Honda as a company have a history of technological inovation. They have never sat back and waited before so why on earth would they in this instance."

Historically I'd totally agree but in the last decade I'd say they've been a little conservative with exception granted to the current Type R. The Civic's 1.8 normally aspirated engine was reliable but it was a bit lacking in midrange pull compared to VAG's excellent 1.4 turbo and couldn't come close on emissions or economy. The new range of 1.0/1.5 turbos should redress this.

Agree regards other manufacturers sensible positioning of the DPF also. I don't hear many complaints from Kia/Hyundai owners for anything. It's a firm I put a great deal of faith in.

Edited by SLO76 on 16/01/2017 at 12:08

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

The Civic's 1.8 normally aspirated engine was reliable but it was a bit lacking in midrange pull compared to VAG's excellent 1.4 turbo and couldn't come close on emissions or economy.

We had one on fleet in about 2006, it was when the new range was introduced. The user/chooser decided on that model because the emissions were very low for a petrol (at the time) resulting in lower BIK than many diesels, how things change. I only took it out once after it became a pool car. It was very disapointing, at first I thought it was a 1400 but at least it had sensible wheels/tyres and a relatively decent ride.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
Fairly rapid response from Honda customer service...

"Dear Mr. Sloan,

Thank you for contacting Honda UK.

The DPF on the Civic models is starting from the year 2012 vehicles.

It is possible for a vehicle to not have a DPF and still be compliant with all the rules and regulations.

For more technical information, you are welcome to contact one of our authorised Honda dealers near you.

They are our technical support and will be able to answer any further questions that you might have.

Thank you for contacting Honda."

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - Cluedo
I think the 118d will be more than ample. I had a 520d and the 178bhp engine was swift in a big car like the 5 series.
Interesting on the reliability issues and long service intervals- Toyota fit the 2.0 BMW diesel to the Avensis and state what we would consider to be normal servicing at 12 monthly intervals. Will be interesting to see if the reliability is improved in the Avensis.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

The DPF on the Civic models is starting from the year 2012 vehicles.

So Honda got around the regs by using a rule that was clearly intended to allow the manufacturer to sell a few surplus vehicles after the new rules to sell a large number they had stockpiled to avoid fitting a DPF to an outgoing model. Someone at the DFT (or whatever they are called) who allowed this needs sacking.

Other manufacturers stopped Euro 4 production early to allow clearance of old stock before the Euro 5 regs became law, Honda flouted the regs to their personal requirements.


It is possible for a vehicle to not have a DPF and still be compliant with all the rules and regulations.

It was impossible for a Euro 5 compliant vehicle to be without a DPF, they were mandatory. The man at Honda is clearly attemting to conceal the truth. They are as guilty as VW but somehow got official backing for their deception.

So in future when anyone asks about cars being fitted with DPF the answer will need to be:

Fron January 01 2011 every diesel vehicle registered in the EU was required by law to comply with the Euro 5 regs which required a DPF to be fitted. There is one exception which was the Honda Civic and in the UK Honda were allowed to continue selling a Euro 4 car by flouting a rule not intended for long term sales. Any previous model Civic rgeistered in 2011 or 2012 was manufactured earlier than October 2010, possibly as early as 2009 and stocked at an airfield location.

BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - SLO76
Have to add the Kia Rio 1.5 CRDi to that too skidpan... but yup slight twisting of rules.
BMW Series 1 - Used BMW Series 1 Diesel..which version - skidpan

I have put the details of the 61 plate Civic you linked on Auotrader earlier. Its confirmed as an 09 model registered 02 Septemer 2011 thus it had clearly been made quite a while before registration. Its a Euro 4 car so if its true the Civic did not have a DPF for Euro 4 this car does not have one.

Checked up on a 2011 11 plate Kia Rio CRDi and guess what, it appears to be another 2009 car with Euro 4 emisions and presumably no DPF since I know for a fact Euro 4 Rio's up to mid 2010 did not have a DPF.

So how many more manufacturers have been playing the rules. When you consider that DPF's were introduced to help prevent deaths from lung disease why did the goverment allow such a clear breach.

Hopefully when the rules come in to ban certain diesel cars from city centres these Euro 4 cars will not be missed simply because they were registered after the date they should have been Euro 5. There are sure to be some very unhappy owners who think they have a compliant car when they don't and hopefully the manufacturers/government (they are equally to blame in these cases) will be forced to buy back these cars and compensate owners.

 

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