From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - oldroverboy.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/30/diesel-cars-sh.../

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

I can understand getting the old diesels off the road as they are in most cases more smokey, but modern diesels are much cleaner and better for the air.

as for global warming, I was under the impression it was a natural occurance, approx every 12000 years, lasting 30 to 50 years or so. and I still do not agree we are causing it..I dont think anyone can control nature as yet?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - skidpan

as for global warming,

Thought the correct term was "climate change" since its not simply about temps getting warmer (which is not the case in every location on earth).

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

as for global warming,

Thought the correct term was "climate change" since its not simply about temps getting warmer (which is not the case in every location on earth).

That's correct - we're getting more unpredictable weather with more excessive extremes, just as predicted by those who believe in climate change.

Finally, the politicians have woken up to the fact that emissions cause three problems, somewhat unrelated - man-made CO2 adds to nature's CO2 at a high rate which can't be absorbed by nature - particulates (soot) from diesels and to a less extent petrol engines cause cancer and breathing difficulties - toxic substances like NOx cause major illnesses, particularly in cities where the high CO2 prevents the natural breakdown to N+O, both of which are part of normal air.

Edited by RT on 30/12/2016 at 17:28

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

as for global warming,

Thought the correct term was "climate change" since its not simply about temps getting warmer (which is not the case in every location on earth).

Global warming is supposed to be causing climate change. so they say

Edited by bolt on 30/12/2016 at 17:30

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

As for global warming, I was under the impression it was a natural occurrence, approx every 12000 years, lasting 30 to 50 years or so. and I still do not agree we are causing it..I dont think anyone can control nature as yet?

Please explain why you don't agree that we are causing a good part of it. Only true ostriches (deniers of scientific measurement) will deny (a) that atmospheric CO2 has been rising since the start of our industrial revolution, and (b) CO2 traps heat in the atmosphere. It is not inconsistent that industry has produced (a good deal of) the CO2 which is raising global temperature.

If you don't like this logic, I suggest that may be only because you would rather not believe it.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - sandy56

There is still a lot of conflicting eveidence of man made climate change. Some of our most distinguished scientists do not agree.

There is also hard scientifice evidence that we are about to enter a perior of global cooling due to the change in output from the sun. This will very likely result in a mini ice age as experienced before across northern latitudes.

So you read your paper and you make up your own mind?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - skidpan

So you read your paper and you make up your own mind?

The Daily Mail has the new Ice Age starting every winter. Papers are the last place you should look for information to base a decision on.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Mark B1

The Daily Mail has the new Ice Age starting every winter. Papers are the last place you should look for information to base a decision on.

And that is one documentry series I always look forward to can't wait for the 8th DVD to add to my collection.

Sid is still my favourite presenter.

VB

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Bromptonaut

There is still a lot of conflicting eveidence of man made climate change. Some of our most distinguished scientists do not agree.

Can you name these distinguished scientists?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

There is still a lot of conflicting eveidence of man made climate change. Some of our most distinguished scientists do not agree.

Can you name these distinguished scientists?

there has been conflicting evidence mentioned for years, only problem is those that do mention it`s not our fault appear not to be able to carry on research(from what i`ve read anyway) as the research grants/funding has been stopped

Some say its because they are naysayers, though it is getting like religion,if you don`t agree your out

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Bromptonaut

there has been conflicting evidence mentioned for years, only problem is those that do mention it`s not our fault appear not to be able to carry on research(from what i`ve read anyway) as the research grants/funding has been stopped

So these scientists are maybe not so distinguished?

The 'can't get funding' bit is misleading too. If there was an alternative case big oil would surely fund it.

The fact is that there is pretty much consensus that CO2 is (a) rising as a proportion of atmosphere and (b) acts like a blanket.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

As for global warming, I was under the impression it was a natural occurrence, approx every 12000 years, lasting 30 to 50 years or so. and I still do not agree we are causing it..I dont think anyone can control nature as yet?

Please explain why you don't agree that we are causing a good part of it. Only true ostriches (deniers of scientific measurement) will deny (a) that atmospheric CO2 has been rising since the start of our industrial revolution, and (b) CO2 traps heat in the atmosphere. It is not inconsistent that industry has produced (a good deal of) the CO2 which is raising global temperature.

If you don't like this logic, I suggest that may be only because you would rather not believe it.

Too many inconsistencies regarding causes of climate change, according to different people.

Nature has allways taken care of itself in the past and allways will do, the climate has been changing for billions of years, I really dont see how we can change it in 100 years or so

I do not dispute gas and particulates are causing health problems as this has been warned about since before I went to college in 1971, in fact this had been warned about more seriously in the 90s but not a lot of notice was taken

I`m actually puzzled as to why nothing was done about car exhaust emmissions years ago, though its like our government,they say a lot and do nothing

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Steveieb
Recent edition of New Scientist claims that the newer diesels, even with DPF s are no cleaner than the pre 2005 diesels in Real World driving conditions. The emissions figures are massaged to comply with the impossible standards conjured up by Brussels and we all know about VW gate!
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - brum
Recent edition of New Scientist claims that the newer diesels, even with DPF s are no cleaner than the pre 2005 diesels in Real World driving conditions. The emissions figures are massaged to comply with the impossible standards conjured up by Brussels and we all know about VW gate!

I've never understood how a DPF trapping soot, only to have it burned off at very high temperatures and released in one big dump was ever going to help emissions of particulates, CO2, and NOx.

A bit like how speed cameras actually cause accidents.

Or how speed humps/traffic calming vastly increase pollution.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - SLO76
"I've never understood how a DPF trapping soot, only to have it burned off at very high temperatures and released in one big dump was ever going to help emissions of particulates, CO2, and NOx.

A bit like how speed cameras actually cause accidents.

Or how speed humps/traffic calming vastly increase pollution."

DPF equipped cars produce more CO2 and do fewer mpg. Create any blockage in the exhaust system and you'll hurt engine efficiency. I remember trying to figure why anyone would pay extra for it when the were introduced as an option on Fords and VW's, they always added a few g/km to CO2 and marginally increased fuel consumption.

Wonder how much CO2 is created every year by cars having to slow down for unnecessary speed humps and cameras?
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

Too many inconsistencies regarding causes of climate change, according to different people.

Nature has allways taken care of itself in the past and allways will do, the climate has been changing for billions of years, I really dont see how we can change it in 100 years or so

I do not dispute gas and particulates are causing health problems as this has been warned about since before I went to college in 1971, in fact this had been warned about more seriously in the 90s but not a lot of notice was taken

I`m actually puzzled as to why nothing was done about car exhaust emmissions years ago, though its like our government,they say a lot and do nothing

Nature is being added to, taken away from, interferred with by Mankind far more than ever in the past - so Nature's ability to cope historically cannot be taken for granted.

Nature can cope with some man-made pollution but not as much as we currently produce - we need to reduce pollution to below the level that Nature can cope with.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - gordonbennet

We won't be doing any good about pollution till we accept that population growth has to stop, regardless of politician's false promises about pensions and their (owners) solutions, materialistic considerations will one day be of little importance save who has control of food and water.

Our own population growth, almost solely through immigration and the ongoing results of immigration are, like our own pollution, tiny in comparison to the population explosions in what was once known as the third world, and no one has come up with a solution to that which wouldn't land them in the Haig were it aired.

We, humanity, are killing our own planet by overpopulation and building on its fertile grounds, which is stupidity in the extreme, short of several desperate real wars where tens of millions perish or the next instalment in plague like selective diseases, the end of the world as we know it is almost inevitable, we'll bleed it dry.

The Diesel emmission issue is nothing to what is coming, though its a handy diversionary tactic and the climate wheeze has kept a good few in decent incomes for several decades so far, so don't rock their heavily laden income boats please chaps.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - brum

Ironic how the UK is being fined £300 million by the EU for pollution mainly from german/french/italian designed cars which are produced in the the EU and not in the UK.

I suggest the UK just pass the fine back to our EU cousins.

Yet another nail in the coffin of diesel cars.

Edited by brum on 30/12/2016 at 20:34

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Ironic how the UK is being fined £300 million by the EU for pollution mainly from german/french/italian designed cars which are produced in the the EU and not in the UK.

I suggest the UK just pass the fine back to our EU cousins.

Yet another nail in the coffin of diesel cars.

That will not be the only fine, I think it was TFL that said we wont be pollution reduced enough till approx 2030 not to get fined, though, imo they should put that into replacement fuels rather than a fine

what I would like to see is more work done on hydrogen cars to replace electric, I think hybrid will take over for a while, but hydrogen will take its place eventually? and cleaner!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - galileo

what I would like to see is more work done on hydrogen cars to replace electric, I think hybrid will take over for a while, but hydrogen will take its place eventually? and cleaner!

I await the day when we have a credible explanation of how Hydrogen will be supplied in the huge quantities required.

Present bulk supplies are from natural gas or other fossil fuels, processes requiring large amounts of heat, guess which fuels that uses?

Electrolysis of water is only really suitable on a small scale, and unless the electricity comes from solar panels/wind/tidal power, just as energy hungry.

I think it would be a good idea for tree-huggers and anti-fracking protesters to attend basic courses in maths,physics, chemistry and geology, they might then be able to engage in sensible discussions.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Fishermans Bend

Motorists are as always an easy target. Ships are much worse, just 160 of them. If countries produced more while importing less.....

www.autocar.co.uk/opinion/motoring/opinion-why-shi...s

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Smileyman

The Diesel emmission issue is nothing to what is coming, though its a handy diversionary tactic and the climate wheeze has kept a good few in decent incomes for several decades so far, so don't rock their heavily laden income boats please chaps.

I'd rather join in ....

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

We won't be doing any good about pollution till we accept that population growth has to stop, regardless of politician's false promises about pensions and their (owners) solutions, materialistic considerations will one day be of little importance save who has control of food and water.

Well done GB, for mentioning the fundamental fly in the whole ointment. It's the elephant in the room that hardly anyone will talk about, as it's simply not P-C to suggest that anyone (usually a female) does not have the right to add as many to the number as she likes - if necessary with the help of the NHS. Until this problem is grasped things can only get worse. It's at the bottom of most of global society's problems. I suspect the trouble in Syria may be partly triggered by excessive population pressure.

And if any kind of handle is to be got on it, it has to start soon, because the effect will take years or decades to work through.

Edited by Andrew-T on 30/12/2016 at 23:24

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Chickenwire

We won't be doing any good about pollution till we accept that population growth has to stop, regardless of politician's false promises about pensions and their (owners) solutions, materialistic considerations will one day be of little importance save who has control of food and water.

Well done GB, for mentioning the fundamental fly in the whole ointment. It's the elephant in the room that hardly anyone will talk about, as it's simply not P-C to suggest that anyone (usually a female) does not have the right to add as many to the number as she likes - if necessary with the help of the NHS. Until this problem is grasped things can only get worse. It's at the bottom of most of global society's problems. I suspect the trouble in Syria may be partly triggered by excessive population pressure.

And if any kind of handle is to be got on it, it has to start soon, because the effect will take years or decades to work through.

This chap has some very pertinent points about world poverty and population growth, he's a very good 'watch' and pretty compelling: www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_populatio...h

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Bromptonaut

Well done GB, for mentioning the fundamental fly in the whole ointment. It's the elephant in the room that hardly anyone will talk about, as it's simply not P-C to suggest that anyone (usually a female) does not have the right to add as many to the number as she likes - if necessary with the help of the NHS.

The female cannot, even with help of NHS, expand the population singlehanded. And in UK problem is having enough youngsters to support and care for the ageing baby boomers.

I suspect the trouble in Syria may be partly triggered by excessive population pressure.

No, Syria was a stable second world country with decent health care, education etc.

Current problems started as a political revolt against Assad and the Ba'thist regime. Driven in part by the so called Arab Spring and then by ethno-religious feuds which flared in the chaos after 'Strongman' lost his absolute grip on power.

See also Iraq.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - gordonbennet
Current problems started as a political revolt against Assad and the Ba'thist regime. Driven in part by the so called Arab Spring and then by ethno-religious feuds which flared in the chaos after 'Strongman' lost his absolute grip on power.

See also Iraq.

Which the US, via its present (cheerio soon eh) and previous regimes, helped enormously to encourage in their determination to put new leaders in, suitable to their bestest mates with all the wonga in Saudi..

The one sided reporting of mainstream news of this conflict has been amazing, thank goodness the Russians went in to help stabilize the place or it would be another complete basket case like Iraq and Libya, object lessons of how we in the west should keep our greedy noses out of other country's affairs, and Putin for all his faults looks more statesmanlike with every passing day as Obama spoiled childlike throws his teddies out of his pram because Hillary had been seen through, as has he, and their regime is at last over.

How marvellous that Arab spring was they chorused, ask the vast majority of men, or women (if they were allowed to hold a view in some of these places let alone dare voice it) now what they think of their new democracies, which are anything but, and i suspect they won't be quite as enthralled with the results as our gameboy generation regime changers/plotters have been, anyone laughing over Gadaffis hideous demise outside western bunkers thousands of miles away, though not.

Come the inauguration of President Trump and we might just start to see an end to the utter lunacy of befriending arming and encouraging other lunatics, thank goodness decent men and women in the USA had the sense not to allow another term of warmongering and Russia baiting to be nodded through.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

The female cannot, even with help of NHS, expand the population singlehanded. And in UK problem is having enough youngsters to support and care for the ageing baby boomers.

Quite true, Bromp. But that just means that the expansion cycle cannot be broken, however 'uncomfortable' that may become. The other reason is that capitalism is the only system we find comfortable, but it only works with continuous 'growth', which I for one am fed up with hearing about.

As Fraser memorably said, 'we're aalll dooomed ...'

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - barney100

Very interesting programme by a Swedish scientist who produced evidence that the world's poulation will not grow beyond a certain level. In fact some countries appear to be losing numbers ..Russia for example. Fossil fuels are going to run out at sometime so what will power transport in the fuure is anyone's guess.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - peter moss

I dont usually comment on climate change /planet /global warming but prior to the US going lead free in 1971 the US were putting deep sea buoys into the worlds oceans just prior to the chage over to unleaded fuel to measure temp and current flows at varing depths ,i saw a UK fire brigade film on putting out a petrol fire leaded fuel was put into a container lit then left for 2 minuets a co extingusher put it out easily then they did the new unleaded one same test but could not put it out withthe co2 because it kept reignighting.

Unleaded burns at a lot higher rate than leaded and with the advent of the cat converter the heat signature of the vehicle was lot higher than one burning leaded fuel and yet none this increase was ever seen in any studies into warming of any kind yet we have billions of vehicles all over the planet putting out a lot of heat since 1971

Im not for or aganist petrol or diesel but do think all factors should be taken into account and not just left out !

Same could said of the heat refected back into the atmosphere from acres of solar panels that can cause changes in the enviroment green in n one aspect but everything has a cause and efect !

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - gordonbennet

I dont usually comment on climate change /planet /global warming

Licks pencil, then in stage German accent '' you too vill go on the list'', ''don't tell him Pike''

:-)

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Cluedo
Good moaning.... it looks like they found vays to make him talk already.
Sorry, couldn't resist it........ I will go back to bed.
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Smileyman

I read a lot of positive comments about the older VW diesel engines, before the introduction of DPF etc etc .... perhaps someone could advise where these would stand in the event of diesel engine restrictions ....

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - gordonbennet

I don't think any of us can really second guess what form the next emissions or revenue raising or economy stimulating crusades will take with any accuracy, but we could have a stab at it.

I suspect that some increases in VED will be be a favourite, how quickly they bring in city centre bans is anyones guess, but IMO Central London first then inside the North and South Circular routes, and other progressive regimes in cities with, and requiring further, mountains of other peoples money to burn will follow quite quickly.

Maybe they'll do as they did with lorries, force the earlier vehicles to have aftermarket exhaust filters fitted..seemed like a good idea at the time i s'pose, except i know a haulier who had these things on some vehicles and when they started to fill up with soot simply turned them round, makes you proud to be British, these exhaust filters did cost several thousand pounds each mind you.

As always if you happen to know those in the know they might spill the beans before its public knowledge.

Anecdote time, some may recall when the govt of the day decided to backdate the high emission VED stinger back to 2001 from 2006, a decision soon reversed, well a few days before that was announced i tried to buy a 2004ish Subaru Legacy 3.0 litre, but unfortunately it had been sold, the extremely well spoken private seller said don't worry there'll be plenty more for sale very soon..., i did wonder what he meant, he was right there were, i bet a lot of people got a bit burned there, sold their suddenly high VED cars cheaply which then a few months later were suddenly back in reasonable VED rates.

But then i don't suppose those making the rules up got caught in previous house price crashes when interest rates rocketed etc etc.

Edited by gordonbennet on 30/12/2016 at 21:58

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT
But then i don't suppose those making the rules up got caught in previous house price crashes when interest rates rocketed etc etc.

I can remember many house price crashes, temporary blips really, but none related to mortgage interest rate - I can remember when that rate was over 15% in the '70/80s but it's been below 4% since the global financial crash in 2008

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

I read a lot of positive comments about the older VW diesel engines, before the introduction of DPF etc etc .... perhaps someone could advise where these would stand in the event of diesel engine restrictions ....

A diesel without a DPF is likely to be banned from cities.

They'll be the first ones banned from cities - every vehicle's registration at DVLA shows it's Euro group for emissions, or nothing for pre-1992 vehicles - the debated city bans are likely to on emissions up to Euro 4 and then progressively more recent - but since NOx is a big issue in cities they might ban Euro 5 as well, from the start.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - colinh

Ironic that Spain, which taxes diesel less than petrol, has had to resort to a ban on driving in Madrid, based on your number-plate having an odd or even number on alternate days, due to pollution levels. Also there's a ban on non-residents parking in the city.

The "ECO" stickers which were distributed to owners of hybrid and alternative-fuelled cars earlier in the year are beginning to make sense for future restrictions

Edited by colinh on 31/12/2016 at 04:47

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - 72 dudes

Ban diesel cars? Easy target as usual.

What about HGVs, vans, all London cabs, buses, coaches, trains, tractors, which one sees daily belching out black smoke?

Oh that's right, there's no viable alternative yet for these essential forms of transport. Motorists with diesel cars, on the other hand, yes, there's a target.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Vitesse6

Just imagine if all the world's governments agreed that in 25 or 30 years the internal combustion engine running on petrol or diesel would be banned from further use.

What a spur that would be to develop new technology to power the planet.

I know it won't happen, but as I said, just imagine.

As it stands now there are too many vested interests who want to keep the fossil fuel economy we now have, there are some developments being made, but not nearly enough.

As regards climate change deniers, what are you going to say in 50 years time if you are proved wrong? Changing to renewable energy won't do any harm, not changing may well make our only planet very uncomfortable to live on.

Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - mss1tw

Just imagine if all the world's governments agreed that in 25 or 30 years the internal combustion engine running on petrol or diesel would be banned from further use.

What a spur that would be to develop new technology to power the planet.

I know it won't happen, but as I said, just imagine.

As it stands now there are too many vested interests who want to keep the fossil fuel economy we now have, there are some developments being made, but not nearly enough.

As regards climate change deniers, what are you going to say in 50 years time if you are proved wrong? Changing to renewable energy won't do any harm, not changing may well make our only planet very uncomfortable to live on.

Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward.

I agree, without the Great Abacus Ban of 1901, we wouldn't have computers now.

Edited by mss1tw on 31/12/2016 at 10:34

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward

Not so sure many are, but depends why you think they are, some just cannot afford renewable energy like solar panels, electric cars, and all led bulbs in the house, and would rather say they didn`t believe it than say they cannot afford it

Tech needs to come down in price as well in order for people to use solar panels and to be more reliable, some panels do not last long as I found out,and take too long to do a job,ie battery charging from solar can take days instead of hours also needing direct sunlight,which we do not always get, so tech is ok when it works as advertised, which isnt always the case

thats not including companies having to find alternative fuels for lorries, ect, ect. the list is endless

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - brum

Good Led bulbs now available cheaper than other types at Poundland, Home Bargains and no doubt other stores. Payback time is very short and they do seem reliable and good light quality which something where CFL lamps failed.

I read somewhere that the german government is planning to phase out all internal combustion engined cars by 2030

www.ecowatch.com/germany-bans-combustion-engine-ca...l

In the meantime the plan is to make them more complex, unreliable and expensive so the public decides to switch to alternatives.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Good Led bulbs now available cheaper than other types at Poundland, Home Bargains and no doubt other stores. Payback time is very short and they do seem reliable and good light quality which something where CFL lamps failed.

I read somewhere that the german government is planning to phase out all internal combustion engined cars by 2030

www.ecowatch.com/germany-bans-combustion-engine-ca...l

In the meantime the plan is to make them more complex, unreliable and expensive so the public decides to switch to alternatives.

I only have led bulbs in my house, and wish I could get the gas bill down to the same as electric, I could not get on with CFL lamps and were more juicy with dull light output.

Honda/Toyota have allready said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available

They are already complex but doubt they would become unreliable due to putting people off of the manufacturer. as they say mud sticks, though VW seem to have got away with a lot, I doubt anyone else could?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - brum

My suggestion to the government.

There are tens of thousands car owners who illegally modify their cars with remaps , tuning boxes, modified exhausts, removing emission controls, egr, dpf etc.

Each one of these pump out more pollutants than several hundred unmodified cars on average. Clamp down hard using road side checks as well as MOTs on these by confiscating and crushing these anti social polluters.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

My suggestion to the government.

There are tens of thousands car owners who illegally modify their cars with remaps , tuning boxes, modified exhausts, removing emission controls, egr, dpf etc.

Each one of these pump out more pollutants than several hundred unmodified cars on average. Clamp down hard using road side checks as well as MOTs on these by confiscating and crushing these anti social polluters.

That's a brash claim - the 10p resistor type of "chip" justifies that claim as they simply over-fuel an engine - but the others don't as most emission controls only work part-time, ie not during warm-up and not in certain load conditions.

At this time, it's not illegal in the UK to modify a car away from it's Type Approved specification - the regulation concerning MoTs are limited to those things readily checked.

At a year old, my car has been "modified" as the transmission ECU needed a software update - is that legal?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

The diesel engine will find a new role as the auxiliary power unit of choice in range-extender hybrids. While pure electric cars and vans have a bright future, I think a lot of people will still choose hybrids, which share much of their technology with the pure electrics. In these cars the diesel engine will only operate part-time, driving a generator to charge the battery when necessary.

While I'm not predicting the death of the diesel engine, the future of the multi-speed gearbox looks less certain. More and more cars will be electrically driven, whether hybrid or pure electric. Electric drive usually incorporates a fixed single speed gear.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

The diesel engine will find a new role as the auxiliary power unit of choice in range-extender hybrids. While pure electric cars and vans have a bright future, I think a lot of people will still choose hybrids, which share much of their technology with the pure electrics. In these cars the diesel engine will only operate part-time, driving a generator to charge the battery when necessary.

While I'm not predicting the death of the diesel engine, the future of the multi-speed gearbox looks less certain. More and more cars will be electrically driven, whether hybrid or pure electric. Electric drive usually incorporates a fixed single speed gear.

Or this-

cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - corax

Or this-

cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../

If this were to come to fruition, I'd assume that there would be a system in place to allow the motors to 'talk' to each other, otherwise having a separate motor in say two front or back wheels would be interesting around bends! On the other hand, the same system could produce fantastic performance when cornering by having controlled grip on each wheel.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

Or this-

cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../

If this were to come to fruition, I'd assume that there would be a system in place to allow the motors to 'talk' to each other, otherwise having a separate motor in say two front or back wheels would be interesting around bends! On the other hand, the same system could produce fantastic performance when cornering by having controlled grip on each wheel.

While the wheels have grip, there'd be no problem. Traction control and ABS would prevent them from losing grip.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Steveieb

There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.

The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.

As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.

The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.

As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.

Makes me laugh that does, we cant afford to keep ourselves, and in severe debt, but we are supposed to pay for other countries

We cannot even look after the elderly or run the NHS properly, but we are able to give money away to other countries,really makes sense that do.NOT!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.

The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.

As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.

Makes me laugh that does, we cant afford to keep ourselves, and in severe debt, but we are supposed to pay for other countries

We cannot even look after the elderly or run the NHS properly, but we are able to give money away to other countries,really makes sense that do.NOT!

Where's the "really, really LIKE" button when you need it ?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.

A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.

And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.

A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.

And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?

So, what do people suggest, there appears to be problems whatever way we go,so apart from cleaning up diesel and petrol exhausts, we are in a no win situation

Apart from possibly this new motor(link in my above post) which appears to be being developed for the germans and maybe in production this year? and can be fully software controlled

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.

A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.

And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?

So, what do people suggest, there appears to be problems whatever way we go,so apart from cleaning up diesel and petrol exhausts, we are in a no win situation

Apart from possibly this new motor(link in my above post) which appears to be being developed for the germans and maybe in production this year? and can be fully software controlled

No suggestions then on what could replace fossil fuels,only what we cant do,very possitive, the only other way is to clean up diesel and petrol exhausts, which if I remember correctly,some oem`s said years ago they could do but at a cost to customers

At least untill a viable alternative is found and IMO electric at the moment is not one...only to the odd few

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - galileo

Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.

A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.

And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?

Exactly as I posted on Friday, bulk hydrogen is not a realistic option. What the warmists never mention at their International Conferences is that the aircraft that take them there use maybe 30 tons of kerosene on the way, the CO2 output of which is similar to 30 tons of diesel.

Yet all they moan about is how much CO2 cars emit.

Container ships burn oil of the order of hundreds of tons a day, commercial planes land and take off each minute of the day at Heathrow and all the other airports

Solar panels will never run heavy goods vehicles; if they stop running the present density of population is unsustainable.

Before the Industrial Revolution in 1800 the UK population was 10.5 million, importing what we couldn't grow or make on sailing ships.

Cameron's (and Parliament's) half witted, unscientific decision to pass a Law (the Climate Change Act) that commits us to cut CO2 emissions by 80% just shows how ignorant they are about this issue.

There is no problem politicians can not make worse.

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From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

There are several projects to develop electric heavy trucks. Mercedes have unveiled a prototype that will do 120 miles on a charge, while Tesla have announced plans to develop electric commercial vehicles.

www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/urba...l

Obviously a 120 mile range is only suitable for local and medium-distance work but for such applications electric propulsion would be ideal.

The Nikola heavy truck project in USA combines battery power with a fuel-cell to create a long-distance all-electric hybrid - if that's not a contradiction in terms!

nikolamotor.com/one

Edited by Sofa Spud on 06/01/2017 at 15:43

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - focussed

Fuel cells run on hydrogen from a tank and extract oxygen from the air.

Where is the emission-free hydrogen going to come from? Fairy dust?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Fuel cells run on hydrogen from a tank and extract oxygen from the air.

Where is the emission-free hydrogen going to come from? Fairy dust?

They reckon they can build solar powered charging stations around the country eventualy, which extract the hydrogen and using its own pressure refill the onboard tanks

I cant see it being any more difficult than recharging thousands of EV` batteries at once

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - focussed

Most of the hydrogen that is currently available comes from methane and most of that gets used to extract sulphur from gasolene.I don't think that it is quite as simple as having solar panels powering hydrogen recharging stations - as far as I know you can't snatch hydrogen out of thin air (looked it up- there is 0,00005% by volume of hydrogen in air)

Volkswagen's Rudolf Krebs said in 2013 that "no matter how excellent you make the cars themselves, the laws of physics hinder their overall efficiency. The most efficient way to convert energy to mobility is electricity." He elaborated: "Hydrogen mobility only makes sense if you use green energy", but ... you need to convert it first into hydrogen "with low efficiencies" where "you lose about 40 percent of the initial energy". You then must compress the hydrogen and store it under high pressure in tanks, which uses more energy. "And then you have to convert the hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell with another efficiency loss". Krebs continued: "in the end, from your original 100 percent of electric energy, you end up with 30 to 40 percent."

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.

But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - galileo

At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.

But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.

1) Extract the carbon central electrodes from a couple of D cell batteries

2) Connect these to the + and - terminals of one of the big square 6V lantern batteries

3) Dip the carbon electrodes into a glass/beaker of water, made conducting by adding a little salt. *

4) Watch the rate at which little bubbles of hydrogen form at one electrode (and oxygen at the other).

5) Now imagine a scaled up plant that can produce enough hydrogen to fuel hundreds of cars and how much electricity it will need.

* Don't add too much salt or you will get chlorine gas instead of oxygen, not nice!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - focussed

Hydrogen is industrially produced from steam reforming, which uses fossil fuels such as natural gas, oil, or coal. The energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel, some of it being lost as excessive heat during production. Steam reforming leads to carbon dioxide emissions, in the same way as a car engine would do.

A small part (4% in 2006) is produced by electrolysis using electricity and water, consuming approximately 50 kilowatt-hours of electricity per kilogram of hydrogen produced.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

Edited by focussed on 07/01/2017 at 08:52

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Hydrogen is industrially produced from steam reforming, which uses fossil fuels such as natural gas, oil, or coal. The energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel, some of it being lost as excessive heat during production. Steam reforming leads to carbon dioxide emissions, in the same way as a car engine would do.

A small part (4% in 2006) is produced by electrolysis using electricity and water, consuming approximately 50 kilowatt-hours of electricity per kilogram of hydrogen produced.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s

In the medium term, mild hybrids are the way forward - they do at least recover the energy lost in braking, however generated in the first place, and can maintain performance from lower-powered engines, forcing them to work more efficiently.

EVs need a quantum leap in both range and recharge time - until then their limitations restrict them to basic usage patterns.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s

In the medium term, mild hybrids are the way forward - they do at least recover the energy lost in braking, however generated in the first place, and can maintain performance from lower-powered engines, forcing them to work more efficiently.

EVs need a quantum leap in both range and recharge time - until then their limitations restrict them to basic usage patterns.

And should be fairly quick to market now Toyota are licencing their hybrid system to other makers,Hyundai, Kia, and Ford.possibly others

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - corax

At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.

But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.

It would have to be done using sea water. There are already worries about fresh water shortage in many parts of the planet, at least where there is human habitation.

An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening.

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, the sun burns through 600 million tonnes a second. Unfortunately there isn't quite so much here, and as has been said, the logistics of storing and transporting it are unrealistic.

We've had it easy with crude oil which contains a very large amount of energy for it's concentration.

The trouble is as always, too many apes on the planet, and we will continue to be self destructive, or some big natural event will cut the numbers down eventually.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

There are already worries about fresh water shortage in many parts of the planet, at least where there is human habitation.

Been worries about that for as long as I can remember, same as pollution, but nothing was done about it or even tried, now theres a panic on to put it right, doesnt make sense IMO

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

I can't see the point in using electricity to produce hydrogen to power a car when that same electricity could be used to power a car directly by means of a battery and electric motor.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

<< An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening. >>

Yes indeed. But with an unstoppably expanding population we need to apply more of that sunlight to growing crops so there is something to eat. It's not much use covering agricultural land with panels just to keep driving while we all go on diets. A start would be to use them on new-build roofs.

Edited by Andrew-T on 15/01/2017 at 23:28

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - corax

<< An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening. >>

Yes indeed. But with an unstoppably expanding population we need to apply more of that sunlight to growing crops so there is something to eat. It's not much use covering agricultural land with panels just to keep driving while we all go on diets. A start would be to use them on new-build roofs.

As I said at the end of my post, over population is the main problem.

I've also mentioned the idea of solar panels on house roofs in another thread. Along with geothermal heating installation.

There will always be greedy people at the top though who will want to keep the old technologies going so they can keep making money.

Let's face it, human habitation doesn't work, nasty aggressive race of apes.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - peter moss

I think might for go the Ncap test on that one !

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - sandy56

More b******s on this thread.

Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

More b******s on this thread.

Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.

In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

The electric car market is expanding

A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud

The electric car market is expanding

A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!

Wrong! The amount of electricity consumed in refining a gallon of petrol would drive a typical electric car for about 30-40 miles. That's about the same distance as an equivalent petrol car would travel on a gallon. An internet search indicates that it takes about 5-6 kilowatt-hours of electricity to refine a gallon of petrol.

Yes, there might be a problem with peak demand when everyone is charging their electric cars but technology for grid-scale power storage (e.g. battery warehouses) is now being developed as a buffer against peaks in demand.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 16/01/2017 at 23:07

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

The electric car market is expanding

A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!

Wrong! The amount of electricity consumed in refining a gallon of petrol would drive a typical electric car for about 30-40 miles. That's about the same distance as an equivalent petrol car would travel on a gallon. An internet search indicates that it takes about 5-6 kilowatt-hours of electricity to refine a gallon of petrol.

Yes, there might be a problem with peak demand when everyone is charging their electric cars but technology for grid-scale power storage (e.g. battery warehouses) is now being developed as a buffer against peaks in demand.

I may be wrong, tbh I do not know, tech is getting more advanced every day, so its anyones guess as to what will take over from fossil fuels.

hydrogen may work better, at a guess the possibilties are there so I wouldnt rule it out.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Andrew-T

<< Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.

In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down. >>

Unfortunately the laws of physics and chemistry don't help here. We get energy from burning hydrogen and oxygen to form water - a nice clean exhaust product (maybe). However we first have to make most of the hydrogen by using the same amount (or more) energy to split up water, the raw material. Any ideas ? Nuclear ?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

<< Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.

In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down. >>

Unfortunately the laws of physics and chemistry don't help here. We get energy from burning hydrogen and oxygen to form water - a nice clean exhaust product (maybe). However we first have to make most of the hydrogen by using the same amount (or more) energy to split up water, the raw material. Any ideas ? Nuclear ?

Nuclear - is waiting for the next breakthrough - how to generate the energy but with no toxic, radioactive waste products.

But by then the teleporter will have been invented as well so no-one will need vehicles!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - focussed

"Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce"

When the RAF was producing hydrogen at it's gas plant at RAF Cardington for the barrage balloons it's cost then was £50 per very large cylinder and it took 20 cylinders to fill a balloon!

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Cluedo
Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt
Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.

They dont need to play catchup, they can use it under licence

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107930_toyota-changes-course-offers-to-share-hybrid-technology-with-rivals

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Sofa Spud
Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.

They dont need to play catchup, they can use it under licence

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107930_toyota-changes-course-offers-to-share-hybrid-technology-with-rivals

Isn't it Toyota that's playing catch-up now? Hasn't their clever but complex Synergy hybrid drive system has been overtaken by developments in pure electric cars and range-extender hybrids?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Cluedo
You make a good point SS and I understand you are being constructive but I was referring to years ago when many of us were having the debate on this site about how Toyota got it wrong and diesel was the future because then our mighty and powerful Eurocrats were only worried about CO2.
Interesting or ironic depending on your view when you look at the technology share agreement with BMW and Toyota where BMW get the electric tech and Toyota get the Diesel engine among other things. I understand from friends that they were very surprised at the complexity of fitting a BMW diesel in the Avensis compared to the Toyota diesel.
It is not unlike Toyota to share what they do with competitors as they have a long term view and all boats float when the tide comes in type of attitude. They are the only company I know off that develop and discuss a 100 year strategy at board level and of course have Quality Execs at Board level.
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - peter moss

Yes but they got that covered first get your horse Under Euro 7 it will have to fitted with a DPF bucket underneath to catch the urine and then a exhaust bucket to catch any particulates from the exhaust end and an emissions meter , horse shoes have to made of rubber and have 8mm tread on them on the harness headlights and indicators have to be fitted , the trap /cart will need ruber tyres with suitable tread brake lights +side lights and indicators plus you emissions sticker driving it in town will require congestion charges and arter 1 year if you registered it after april 2017 you will have to pay VED @ £140 after the 3 year this goes up to £450 ,

For sale one pony and trap or swap for a push bike please apply Gumtree !

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

Euro 7 won't apply to the UK - we'll be out of the EU by then.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Euro 7 won't apply to the UK - we'll be out of the EU by then.

I expect if all manufacturers here make Euro 7 cars for other countries we will get them as well, especially as our Cities are after clean air and may push for them.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - focussed

And of course the pony and trap will require an MOT test when it is three years old.

Any volunteers from MOT testers to be the first to test emissions with the probe err.....ummm ..up the pony's exhaust pipe?

Edited by focussed on 18/01/2017 at 00:27

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

And of course the pony and trap will require an MOT test when it is three years old.

Any volunteers from MOT testers to be the first to test emissions with the probe err.....ummm ..up the pony's exhaust pipe?

Health & Safety probably wouldnt allow it, danger of methane explosion

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - brum

Latest blow to diesels....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/27/new-london-par.../

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Getting conflicting messages from London, one comment made during the foggy time was wood burning fires were causing the worst of the pollution

though as long as parking charges in my area are not affected, they can do what they like as I hate London anyway and do my best to stay away

also the bike superhighway is making pollution worse in the city as its slowing traffic to a crawl, they call it good for the environment.??

Bikes appear to be helpng pollution by slowing cars down so whats the point?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - gordonbennet

Higher parking charges to spread to other (labour controlled?) towns and cities?

Not a problem, another nail in the coffin of the high st, a place we seldom venture anyway, we'll just increase our online shopping and the town centres can do whatever they like.

As for that there London, the only time i go near the place is when someone is paying me to drive a company vehicle, other than that you couldn't drag me there.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Bromptonaut

Higher parking charges to spread to other (labour controlled?) towns and cities?

The borough proposing the charge in London is (Conservative controlled) Westminster.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - nailit

"Not a problem, another nail in the coffin of the high st, a place we seldom venture anyway, we'll just increase our online shopping and the town centres can do whatever they like.

As for that there London, the only time i go near the place is when someone is paying me to drive a company vehicle, other than that you couldn't drag me there"

Second that 100%.

Shopping in city centres; I once said years ago to an area manager of a major retailer that their time is nearly up, due mainly to the (then advancing) internet shopping. I was slapped down with comments like "people will always want shops). That particular chain went kapput. The other main beef of mine is .parking fees. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to see the future from parking alone.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Something that would help pollution would be to stop road works going on at rush hour times.

Around my way on every route towards London there are a set of traffic light controlled road works, its insane now, what should be a 20 minute journey is now 1 1/2 hours

whatever happened to the steel plates they used to put over road so traffic could drive without stopping,

they blame us for the emmisions but its not our fault we get stuck in traffic jams that councils cannot organise properly, also most road surfacing is now done during the night, so why cant roadworks ?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Bromptonaut

Getting conflicting messages from London, one comment made during the foggy time was wood burning fires were causing the worst of the pollution

I don't think that's actually case.

In absence of usual westerly airflow pollution was up last week across whole of UK. In those conditions London's geography, as well as it's population, makes it particularly susceptible to build up of pollutants. The worst examples of course were in fifties, before smokeless zones etc.

Last week all measuring points in the capital were recording pollution way in excess of permitted levels. Wood smoke apparently has a distinct spectroscopic 'signature' and was noticeable in quantities not noted say 10yrs ago. Not the main or worst contributor though.

www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/29/pollut...t

also the bike superhighway is making pollution worse in the city as its slowing traffic to a crawl, they call it good for the environment.??

Bikes appear to be helpng pollution by slowing cars down so whats the point?

I don't think there's any evidence for that outside of back chat in cabbies refuges.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 31/01/2017 at 14:36

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

I don't think there's any evidence for that outside of back chat in cabbies refuges

There were enough drivers complaining about it when it was first opened, due to narrowing of roads it was made on, but then, cyclists are happy thats all that counts as TFL want to get rid of cars anyway

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Squirrel tail

Will they use ANPR to check which cars are diesel, (badges can de changed), or will they dip fuel tanks?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - RT

Will they use ANPR to check which cars are diesel, (badges can de changed), or will they dip fuel tanks?

ANPR - it's recorded in the vehicle registration - along with it's Euro classification as they may hit older diesels hardest.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Its possible the ULEZ may be brought forward a year..

www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-pro...z

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - KenMavor

To maybe add a practical situation to an interesting discussion...

I wish to buy a used Mazda 6.

Do a regular commute run of around 20 miles there and back. Once a month a 250 mile round trip to see son.

Would like an automatic.

So do I buy a diesel 2.2 or petrol 2.0l?

Diesel - more MPG, DPF problems maybe due to short journeys, lower road tax due to lower CO, but is this car as clean as they say.

Petrol - probably better suited to style of journeys, lower MPG, higher road tax due to higher CO, maybe actually cleaner that diesel.

I thought I wanted a petrol but now I'm not so sure. Only time ew've had a diesel before wife managed to fill with petrol twice in a year!

Thoughts, points to consider?

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Avant

There have been a lot of issues with Mazda diesels, and it isn't clear whether even in the newer ones they've solved the problems.

On the other hand, the petrol Mazda 6 has an excellent reputation: given that as you say your mileage doesn't justify a diesel, go for the petrol every time.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - skidpan

Don't buy a petrol Mazda until you have had a really good test drive. They might have the all singing, all dancing SkyActive engine but that does not mean they are a good drive.

We have looked at the Mazda 3 and the Mazda 6 petrols in the past 18 monthd and it must be said they are both cracking looking cars that are very well speced and very well priced. But the driving manners of the petrols is not what I have come to expect in modern cars. You need to rev the engines into the upper reaches of the range to get the best performance and doing this repeatedly is not relaxing. And when you rev the nuts off the the engines they are still poor compared to the much more fuel efficient VAG 1.4 TSi units. These have brilliant power all the way form 1500 rpm to the 6000+ rpm redline, they drive better than any diesel. The VED of the Mazdas is much higher than the VAG cars which save quite a bit annually but that all changes in April.

I have owned a Seat Leon 1.4 TSi 140 PS for coming up 4 years and next month I take delivery of a Skoda Superb with the 1.4 TSi 150 PS engine. The equivalent Mazda 6 would have cost me a bit less cash but the driving experience failed to meet my expectations by big margin.

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - dadbif
I avidly support new technology, but, and is a big but, how long does it take to recharge an electric car battery? can you imagine the queues for charging points on motorways, you get queues for petrol/diesel, and that only takes a few minutes.
I foresee hundreds of cars lined up for hours recharging their batteries.
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt
I avidly support new technology, but, and is a big but, how long does it take to recharge an electric car battery? can you imagine the queues for charging points on motorways, you get queues for petrol/diesel, and that only takes a few minutes. I foresee hundreds of cars lined up for hours recharging their batteries.

So do I, but it appears graphene mixed with Li Ion batteries may improve battery charging and last longer, ie charge will last longer after a short charge,apparently a phone maker is starting to use them

they are supposedly to recharge fully in 15 minutes a 4500mah battery

they are looking at using them in a car

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - CHarkin

Diesel is dead - Long live diesel. The technowledgy to make clean diesel car is well established and used on millions of commersial vehicles, it just has not been used on cars because its expensive and car makers want to keep the cost down and make lots of money. If a car is not using Adblue with a reduction catalyst then its producing lots of NOx its as simple as that. Most makes use a lean NOx trap that works well enough but takes a lot of fuel to operate it so mpg takes a big hit. To minimise this most cars makes turn the emmisions control off after about 20 minutes driving ( the lenght of the test ) using the escape clause " to protect the engine "

So its Hobsons choice, diesel with lots of NOx and low CO2 or petrol with lots of CO2 and less NOx. With a DPF fitted particulates are much the same on new cars petrol and diesel. VW are planning to fit a DPF to their petrol cars !

I have been a diesel fan for many years and still am because I dont drive in the city and thats the only place NOx is a problem, it gets trapped amonge the buildings, but in open areas it is removed from the atmospher by natural chemical reaction and its pretty well gone in 10 days, it even removes methane from the atmosphere one of the very worst greenhouse gases. It contributes to global cooling not warming.

If anything is going to put me off buying another diesel its the high cost of replacing the emissions hardware, EGR valve and cooler, DPF and reduction catalyst they dont seem to last that well and cost a lot. Even one bill of £1000 will take the smug 60mpg smile off my face But I do like diesels, they drive better.

Edited by Charles Harkin on 31/01/2017 at 00:09

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Possible Hydrogen fuel cell may come sooner than expected

world.honda.com/news/2017/c170131eng.html?r=m

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - SLO76
I agree with skidpan regarding the lack of midrange pulling power without a turbocharger but having driven both the current Leon 1.2 TSi and a Mazda 3 1.5 recently I'd personally take the Mazda and I doubt the Leon 1.4 v Mazda 2.0 would make much difference to me.

I favour the Mazda's handling and ride ballance which is more important to me personally than outright performance. The gearchange is much nicer and while it might not get you down the road as quickly I'm confident the Mazda will still be running long after some expensive failure has killed off the Leon.

Don't think I'm suggesting for one moment that the Leon is a bad car, far from it. It's a great small family car and far better value than a Golf. I'm just stating my preference. I'd buy the Mazda 6 with a 2.0 petrol Skyactiv engine any day, in fact the estate will be on our list when we replace our Honda CRV.
From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - Chris James

Having owned a diesel car of some description for the best part of 24 years, i'd taken the plunge and was considering a modern Turbocharged petrol, however I just can't get on with the lack of torque, and even the modest Turbo Diesels I owned back in the late 90's seemed to have more get up and go than a mid sized Petrol 1.4 SUV with 150 BHP.

The SUV I test drove was a Seat Ateca 1.4TSi DSG and whilst it kept up with the Traffic it felt very sluggish when pulling out of junctions and lacked throttle response, the same engine in an Octavia was better and felt more lively, but still seemed to lack the mid range power of a diesel, even though my previous diesel didn't have a much higher BHP figure, it did have a much higher torque figure and I suspect that this is the main difference.

The other problem is finding the right petrol engine for your choice of car, Skoda doesn't seem to list a 1.4TSI DSG option on the Yeti for either the standard or outdoor model, and I was told that I would need to wait 20 - 24 weeks for the 1.4 engine in an Ateca - so it looks like its going to be Diesel again. But I did try!.

Fortunately i'm on the borderline where a Diesel justifies the extra cost, but despite my annual mileage being over 12k a year, i'm still not confident about the DPF aspect, but equally i'm not going to wait nearly half a year for the delivery of the 1.4 Ateca or drive long journeys in the 1.2 TSi Yeti which is described in several places as being underpowered on the Motorway.

Interestingly, the Skoda, Seat and Peugeot Dealers I visited all said that they still sell a huge number of new Diesel cars, so either the public aren't buying into all of the Anti-Diesel propaganda or they just don't care . Perhaps its because the decent petrol options either don't exist in their first choice or you can turn into a cobweb covered skeleton waiting for delivery of them!.

Its also interesting to read that Bentley have just launched a Diesel option, for the 2017 Bentayga. Strange that they should choose to launch a Diesel option for the first time ever, at a time when Diesel is rumoured to be approaching a legislative based death in as little as a few years. Will they recoup their R&D costs in such a short time? will all of the other manufacturers recoup their R&D costs on all of the new Diesel models released in 2017?, there seem to be plenty of them. Perhaps the Manufacturers aren't buying into the whole death of diesel thing either.

Edited by Chris James on 13/02/2017 at 22:01

From the DT - Death of the Diesel Again? - bolt

Perhaps the Manufacturers aren't buying into the whole death of diesel thing either

some car companies are saying they can improve diesels a fair bit to make them more efficient and cleaner for the air, I see no reason why not apart from some I hear are giving up on them, possibly because of costs

Trumps attitude may change things as well?

 

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