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I don't think any of us can really second guess what form the next emissions or revenue raising or economy stimulating crusades will take with any accuracy, but we could have a stab at it.
I suspect that some increases in VED will be be a favourite, how quickly they bring in city centre bans is anyones guess, but IMO Central London first then inside the North and South Circular routes, and other progressive regimes in cities with, and requiring further, mountains of other peoples money to burn will follow quite quickly.
Maybe they'll do as they did with lorries, force the earlier vehicles to have aftermarket exhaust filters fitted..seemed like a good idea at the time i s'pose, except i know a haulier who had these things on some vehicles and when they started to fill up with soot simply turned them round, makes you proud to be British, these exhaust filters did cost several thousand pounds each mind you.
As always if you happen to know those in the know they might spill the beans before its public knowledge.
Anecdote time, some may recall when the govt of the day decided to backdate the high emission VED stinger back to 2001 from 2006, a decision soon reversed, well a few days before that was announced i tried to buy a 2004ish Subaru Legacy 3.0 litre, but unfortunately it had been sold, the extremely well spoken private seller said don't worry there'll be plenty more for sale very soon..., i did wonder what he meant, he was right there were, i bet a lot of people got a bit burned there, sold their suddenly high VED cars cheaply which then a few months later were suddenly back in reasonable VED rates.
But then i don't suppose those making the rules up got caught in previous house price crashes when interest rates rocketed etc etc.
Edited by gordonbennet on 30/12/2016 at 21:58
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But then i don't suppose those making the rules up got caught in previous house price crashes when interest rates rocketed etc etc.
I can remember many house price crashes, temporary blips really, but none related to mortgage interest rate - I can remember when that rate was over 15% in the '70/80s but it's been below 4% since the global financial crash in 2008
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I read a lot of positive comments about the older VW diesel engines, before the introduction of DPF etc etc .... perhaps someone could advise where these would stand in the event of diesel engine restrictions ....
A diesel without a DPF is likely to be banned from cities.
They'll be the first ones banned from cities - every vehicle's registration at DVLA shows it's Euro group for emissions, or nothing for pre-1992 vehicles - the debated city bans are likely to on emissions up to Euro 4 and then progressively more recent - but since NOx is a big issue in cities they might ban Euro 5 as well, from the start.
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Ironic that Spain, which taxes diesel less than petrol, has had to resort to a ban on driving in Madrid, based on your number-plate having an odd or even number on alternate days, due to pollution levels. Also there's a ban on non-residents parking in the city.
The "ECO" stickers which were distributed to owners of hybrid and alternative-fuelled cars earlier in the year are beginning to make sense for future restrictions
Edited by colinh on 31/12/2016 at 04:47
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Ban diesel cars? Easy target as usual.
What about HGVs, vans, all London cabs, buses, coaches, trains, tractors, which one sees daily belching out black smoke?
Oh that's right, there's no viable alternative yet for these essential forms of transport. Motorists with diesel cars, on the other hand, yes, there's a target.
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Just imagine if all the world's governments agreed that in 25 or 30 years the internal combustion engine running on petrol or diesel would be banned from further use.
What a spur that would be to develop new technology to power the planet.
I know it won't happen, but as I said, just imagine.
As it stands now there are too many vested interests who want to keep the fossil fuel economy we now have, there are some developments being made, but not nearly enough.
As regards climate change deniers, what are you going to say in 50 years time if you are proved wrong? Changing to renewable energy won't do any harm, not changing may well make our only planet very uncomfortable to live on.
Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward.
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Just imagine if all the world's governments agreed that in 25 or 30 years the internal combustion engine running on petrol or diesel would be banned from further use.
What a spur that would be to develop new technology to power the planet.
I know it won't happen, but as I said, just imagine.
As it stands now there are too many vested interests who want to keep the fossil fuel economy we now have, there are some developments being made, but not nearly enough.
As regards climate change deniers, what are you going to say in 50 years time if you are proved wrong? Changing to renewable energy won't do any harm, not changing may well make our only planet very uncomfortable to live on.
Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward.
I agree, without the Great Abacus Ban of 1901, we wouldn't have computers now.
Edited by mss1tw on 31/12/2016 at 10:34
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Seems obvious to me that to carry on sticking your head in the sand is not the most sensible way forward
Not so sure many are, but depends why you think they are, some just cannot afford renewable energy like solar panels, electric cars, and all led bulbs in the house, and would rather say they didn`t believe it than say they cannot afford it
Tech needs to come down in price as well in order for people to use solar panels and to be more reliable, some panels do not last long as I found out,and take too long to do a job,ie battery charging from solar can take days instead of hours also needing direct sunlight,which we do not always get, so tech is ok when it works as advertised, which isnt always the case
thats not including companies having to find alternative fuels for lorries, ect, ect. the list is endless
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Good Led bulbs now available cheaper than other types at Poundland, Home Bargains and no doubt other stores. Payback time is very short and they do seem reliable and good light quality which something where CFL lamps failed.
I read somewhere that the german government is planning to phase out all internal combustion engined cars by 2030
www.ecowatch.com/germany-bans-combustion-engine-ca...l
In the meantime the plan is to make them more complex, unreliable and expensive so the public decides to switch to alternatives.
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Good Led bulbs now available cheaper than other types at Poundland, Home Bargains and no doubt other stores. Payback time is very short and they do seem reliable and good light quality which something where CFL lamps failed.
I read somewhere that the german government is planning to phase out all internal combustion engined cars by 2030
www.ecowatch.com/germany-bans-combustion-engine-ca...l
In the meantime the plan is to make them more complex, unreliable and expensive so the public decides to switch to alternatives.
I only have led bulbs in my house, and wish I could get the gas bill down to the same as electric, I could not get on with CFL lamps and were more juicy with dull light output.
Honda/Toyota have allready said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available
They are already complex but doubt they would become unreliable due to putting people off of the manufacturer. as they say mud sticks, though VW seem to have got away with a lot, I doubt anyone else could?
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My suggestion to the government.
There are tens of thousands car owners who illegally modify their cars with remaps , tuning boxes, modified exhausts, removing emission controls, egr, dpf etc.
Each one of these pump out more pollutants than several hundred unmodified cars on average. Clamp down hard using road side checks as well as MOTs on these by confiscating and crushing these anti social polluters.
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My suggestion to the government.
There are tens of thousands car owners who illegally modify their cars with remaps , tuning boxes, modified exhausts, removing emission controls, egr, dpf etc.
Each one of these pump out more pollutants than several hundred unmodified cars on average. Clamp down hard using road side checks as well as MOTs on these by confiscating and crushing these anti social polluters.
That's a brash claim - the 10p resistor type of "chip" justifies that claim as they simply over-fuel an engine - but the others don't as most emission controls only work part-time, ie not during warm-up and not in certain load conditions.
At this time, it's not illegal in the UK to modify a car away from it's Type Approved specification - the regulation concerning MoTs are limited to those things readily checked.
At a year old, my car has been "modified" as the transmission ECU needed a software update - is that legal?
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The diesel engine will find a new role as the auxiliary power unit of choice in range-extender hybrids. While pure electric cars and vans have a bright future, I think a lot of people will still choose hybrids, which share much of their technology with the pure electrics. In these cars the diesel engine will only operate part-time, driving a generator to charge the battery when necessary.
While I'm not predicting the death of the diesel engine, the future of the multi-speed gearbox looks less certain. More and more cars will be electrically driven, whether hybrid or pure electric. Electric drive usually incorporates a fixed single speed gear.
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The diesel engine will find a new role as the auxiliary power unit of choice in range-extender hybrids. While pure electric cars and vans have a bright future, I think a lot of people will still choose hybrids, which share much of their technology with the pure electrics. In these cars the diesel engine will only operate part-time, driving a generator to charge the battery when necessary.
While I'm not predicting the death of the diesel engine, the future of the multi-speed gearbox looks less certain. More and more cars will be electrically driven, whether hybrid or pure electric. Electric drive usually incorporates a fixed single speed gear.
Or this-
cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../
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Or this-
cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../
If this were to come to fruition, I'd assume that there would be a system in place to allow the motors to 'talk' to each other, otherwise having a separate motor in say two front or back wheels would be interesting around bends! On the other hand, the same system could produce fantastic performance when cornering by having controlled grip on each wheel.
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Or this-
cleantechnica.com/2013/08/01/in-wheel-ev-motor-fro.../
If this were to come to fruition, I'd assume that there would be a system in place to allow the motors to 'talk' to each other, otherwise having a separate motor in say two front or back wheels would be interesting around bends! On the other hand, the same system could produce fantastic performance when cornering by having controlled grip on each wheel.
While the wheels have grip, there'd be no problem. Traction control and ABS would prevent them from losing grip.
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There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.
The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.
As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.
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There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.
The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.
As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.
Makes me laugh that does, we cant afford to keep ourselves, and in severe debt, but we are supposed to pay for other countries
We cannot even look after the elderly or run the NHS properly, but we are able to give money away to other countries,really makes sense that do.NOT!
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There is evidence that the Paris Agreement onn the Environment has already run agroud.
The agreement that the richer countries would pay the third world countries to comply has run into difficulty in that there has been a lack of REAL money being transferred, being replaced by promises of loans etc.
As with the EC I suspect that the UK will be one of the few countries to fulfill its committment to the letter of the agreement.
Makes me laugh that does, we cant afford to keep ourselves, and in severe debt, but we are supposed to pay for other countries
We cannot even look after the elderly or run the NHS properly, but we are able to give money away to other countries,really makes sense that do.NOT!
Where's the "really, really LIKE" button when you need it ?
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Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.
A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.
And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?
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Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.
A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.
And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?
So, what do people suggest, there appears to be problems whatever way we go,so apart from cleaning up diesel and petrol exhausts, we are in a no win situation
Apart from possibly this new motor(link in my above post) which appears to be being developed for the germans and maybe in production this year? and can be fully software controlled
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Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.
A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.
And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?
So, what do people suggest, there appears to be problems whatever way we go,so apart from cleaning up diesel and petrol exhausts, we are in a no win situation
Apart from possibly this new motor(link in my above post) which appears to be being developed for the germans and maybe in production this year? and can be fully software controlled
No suggestions then on what could replace fossil fuels,only what we cant do,very possitive, the only other way is to clean up diesel and petrol exhausts, which if I remember correctly,some oem`s said years ago they could do but at a cost to customers
At least untill a viable alternative is found and IMO electric at the moment is not one...only to the odd few
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Honda/Toyota have already said they will have Hydrogen cars by 2030 even though they make them now, being sold in America,personaly I would get one tomorrow if they were cheap enough and had local refill stations available.
A liquefied gas tank in the boot is already a nuisance compared with normal petrol or diesel. Compressed gas in any worthwhile quantity takes up an impossible volume. A bit of a bomb too.
And finding enough hydrogen to supply any significant fraction of the car-driving population is a non-starter. As a by-product of refining it may be OK - as a primary output the cost may be unviable?
Exactly as I posted on Friday, bulk hydrogen is not a realistic option. What the warmists never mention at their International Conferences is that the aircraft that take them there use maybe 30 tons of kerosene on the way, the CO2 output of which is similar to 30 tons of diesel.
Yet all they moan about is how much CO2 cars emit.
Container ships burn oil of the order of hundreds of tons a day, commercial planes land and take off each minute of the day at Heathrow and all the other airports
Solar panels will never run heavy goods vehicles; if they stop running the present density of population is unsustainable.
Before the Industrial Revolution in 1800 the UK population was 10.5 million, importing what we couldn't grow or make on sailing ships.
Cameron's (and Parliament's) half witted, unscientific decision to pass a Law (the Climate Change Act) that commits us to cut CO2 emissions by 80% just shows how ignorant they are about this issue.
There is no problem politicians can not make worse.
Terms and Conditions • Pr
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There are several projects to develop electric heavy trucks. Mercedes have unveiled a prototype that will do 120 miles on a charge, while Tesla have announced plans to develop electric commercial vehicles.
www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-benz/urba...l
Obviously a 120 mile range is only suitable for local and medium-distance work but for such applications electric propulsion would be ideal.
The Nikola heavy truck project in USA combines battery power with a fuel-cell to create a long-distance all-electric hybrid - if that's not a contradiction in terms!
nikolamotor.com/one
Edited by Sofa Spud on 06/01/2017 at 15:43
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Fuel cells run on hydrogen from a tank and extract oxygen from the air.
Where is the emission-free hydrogen going to come from? Fairy dust?
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Fuel cells run on hydrogen from a tank and extract oxygen from the air.
Where is the emission-free hydrogen going to come from? Fairy dust?
They reckon they can build solar powered charging stations around the country eventualy, which extract the hydrogen and using its own pressure refill the onboard tanks
I cant see it being any more difficult than recharging thousands of EV` batteries at once
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Most of the hydrogen that is currently available comes from methane and most of that gets used to extract sulphur from gasolene.I don't think that it is quite as simple as having solar panels powering hydrogen recharging stations - as far as I know you can't snatch hydrogen out of thin air (looked it up- there is 0,00005% by volume of hydrogen in air)
Volkswagen's Rudolf Krebs said in 2013 that "no matter how excellent you make the cars themselves, the laws of physics hinder their overall efficiency. The most efficient way to convert energy to mobility is electricity." He elaborated: "Hydrogen mobility only makes sense if you use green energy", but ... you need to convert it first into hydrogen "with low efficiencies" where "you lose about 40 percent of the initial energy". You then must compress the hydrogen and store it under high pressure in tanks, which uses more energy. "And then you have to convert the hydrogen back to electricity in a fuel cell with another efficiency loss". Krebs continued: "in the end, from your original 100 percent of electric energy, you end up with 30 to 40 percent."
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At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.
But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.
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At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.
But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.
1) Extract the carbon central electrodes from a couple of D cell batteries
2) Connect these to the + and - terminals of one of the big square 6V lantern batteries
3) Dip the carbon electrodes into a glass/beaker of water, made conducting by adding a little salt. *
4) Watch the rate at which little bubbles of hydrogen form at one electrode (and oxygen at the other).
5) Now imagine a scaled up plant that can produce enough hydrogen to fuel hundreds of cars and how much electricity it will need.
* Don't add too much salt or you will get chlorine gas instead of oxygen, not nice!
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Hydrogen is industrially produced from steam reforming, which uses fossil fuels such as natural gas, oil, or coal. The energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel, some of it being lost as excessive heat during production. Steam reforming leads to carbon dioxide emissions, in the same way as a car engine would do.
A small part (4% in 2006) is produced by electrolysis using electricity and water, consuming approximately 50 kilowatt-hours of electricity per kilogram of hydrogen produced.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
Edited by focussed on 07/01/2017 at 08:52
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Hydrogen is industrially produced from steam reforming, which uses fossil fuels such as natural gas, oil, or coal. The energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel, some of it being lost as excessive heat during production. Steam reforming leads to carbon dioxide emissions, in the same way as a car engine would do.
A small part (4% in 2006) is produced by electrolysis using electricity and water, consuming approximately 50 kilowatt-hours of electricity per kilogram of hydrogen produced.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s
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In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s
In the medium term, mild hybrids are the way forward - they do at least recover the energy lost in braking, however generated in the first place, and can maintain performance from lower-powered engines, forcing them to work more efficiently.
EVs need a quantum leap in both range and recharge time - until then their limitations restrict them to basic usage patterns.
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In the meantime, hybrid will take over untill they get better tech with hydrogen/more efficient ev`s
In the medium term, mild hybrids are the way forward - they do at least recover the energy lost in braking, however generated in the first place, and can maintain performance from lower-powered engines, forcing them to work more efficiently.
EVs need a quantum leap in both range and recharge time - until then their limitations restrict them to basic usage patterns.
And should be fairly quick to market now Toyota are licencing their hybrid system to other makers,Hyundai, Kia, and Ford.possibly others
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At a theoretical level, wind/solar electric could be used to power electrolysis to separate the hydrogen from oxygen in water - Stanford Univerisity is researching a more efficient method using a catalyst.
But whether it could be done in sufficient volume is doubtful.
It would have to be done using sea water. There are already worries about fresh water shortage in many parts of the planet, at least where there is human habitation.
An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, the sun burns through 600 million tonnes a second. Unfortunately there isn't quite so much here, and as has been said, the logistics of storing and transporting it are unrealistic.
We've had it easy with crude oil which contains a very large amount of energy for it's concentration.
The trouble is as always, too many apes on the planet, and we will continue to be self destructive, or some big natural event will cut the numbers down eventually.
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There are already worries about fresh water shortage in many parts of the planet, at least where there is human habitation.
Been worries about that for as long as I can remember, same as pollution, but nothing was done about it or even tried, now theres a panic on to put it right, doesnt make sense IMO
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I can't see the point in using electricity to produce hydrogen to power a car when that same electricity could be used to power a car directly by means of a battery and electric motor.
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<< An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening. >>
Yes indeed. But with an unstoppably expanding population we need to apply more of that sunlight to growing crops so there is something to eat. It's not much use covering agricultural land with panels just to keep driving while we all go on diets. A start would be to use them on new-build roofs.
Edited by Andrew-T on 15/01/2017 at 23:28
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<< An enormous amount of energy hits the planet every hour from the sun that makes our power consumption levels look silly in comparison. We need to get into the mindset of harnessing it efficiently which is slowly happening. >>
Yes indeed. But with an unstoppably expanding population we need to apply more of that sunlight to growing crops so there is something to eat. It's not much use covering agricultural land with panels just to keep driving while we all go on diets. A start would be to use them on new-build roofs.
As I said at the end of my post, over population is the main problem.
I've also mentioned the idea of solar panels on house roofs in another thread. Along with geothermal heating installation.
There will always be greedy people at the top though who will want to keep the old technologies going so they can keep making money.
Let's face it, human habitation doesn't work, nasty aggressive race of apes.
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I think might for go the Ncap test on that one !
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More b******s on this thread.
Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.
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More b******s on this thread.
Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.
In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down.
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The electric car market is expanding
A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!
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The electric car market is expanding
A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!
Wrong! The amount of electricity consumed in refining a gallon of petrol would drive a typical electric car for about 30-40 miles. That's about the same distance as an equivalent petrol car would travel on a gallon. An internet search indicates that it takes about 5-6 kilowatt-hours of electricity to refine a gallon of petrol.
Yes, there might be a problem with peak demand when everyone is charging their electric cars but technology for grid-scale power storage (e.g. battery warehouses) is now being developed as a buffer against peaks in demand.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 16/01/2017 at 23:07
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The electric car market is expanding
A good excuse to build more nuclear power stations and put the price of electricity up to pay for them..!
Wrong! The amount of electricity consumed in refining a gallon of petrol would drive a typical electric car for about 30-40 miles. That's about the same distance as an equivalent petrol car would travel on a gallon. An internet search indicates that it takes about 5-6 kilowatt-hours of electricity to refine a gallon of petrol.
Yes, there might be a problem with peak demand when everyone is charging their electric cars but technology for grid-scale power storage (e.g. battery warehouses) is now being developed as a buffer against peaks in demand.
I may be wrong, tbh I do not know, tech is getting more advanced every day, so its anyones guess as to what will take over from fossil fuels.
hydrogen may work better, at a guess the possibilties are there so I wouldnt rule it out.
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<< Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.
In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down. >>
Unfortunately the laws of physics and chemistry don't help here. We get energy from burning hydrogen and oxygen to form water - a nice clean exhaust product (maybe). However we first have to make most of the hydrogen by using the same amount (or more) energy to split up water, the raw material. Any ideas ? Nuclear ?
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<< Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce. SHow some sense and Save the money and use petrol or get a bicycle.
In the short term, maybe! The electric car market is expanding as battery range improves and prices start to come down. >>
Unfortunately the laws of physics and chemistry don't help here. We get energy from burning hydrogen and oxygen to form water - a nice clean exhaust product (maybe). However we first have to make most of the hydrogen by using the same amount (or more) energy to split up water, the raw material. Any ideas ? Nuclear ?
Nuclear - is waiting for the next breakthrough - how to generate the energy but with no toxic, radioactive waste products.
But by then the teleporter will have been invented as well so no-one will need vehicles!
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"Hydrogen is VERY expensive to produce"
When the RAF was producing hydrogen at it's gas plant at RAF Cardington for the barrage balloons it's cost then was £50 per very large cylinder and it took 20 cylinders to fill a balloon!
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Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.
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Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.
They dont need to play catchup, they can use it under licence
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107930_toyota-changes-course-offers-to-share-hybrid-technology-with-rivals
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Toyota and their hybrid strategy must be laughing all the way to the bank now while everyone plays catch up.
They dont need to play catchup, they can use it under licence
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107930_toyota-changes-course-offers-to-share-hybrid-technology-with-rivals
Isn't it Toyota that's playing catch-up now? Hasn't their clever but complex Synergy hybrid drive system has been overtaken by developments in pure electric cars and range-extender hybrids?
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You make a good point SS and I understand you are being constructive but I was referring to years ago when many of us were having the debate on this site about how Toyota got it wrong and diesel was the future because then our mighty and powerful Eurocrats were only worried about CO2.
Interesting or ironic depending on your view when you look at the technology share agreement with BMW and Toyota where BMW get the electric tech and Toyota get the Diesel engine among other things. I understand from friends that they were very surprised at the complexity of fitting a BMW diesel in the Avensis compared to the Toyota diesel.
It is not unlike Toyota to share what they do with competitors as they have a long term view and all boats float when the tide comes in type of attitude. They are the only company I know off that develop and discuss a 100 year strategy at board level and of course have Quality Execs at Board level.
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Yes but they got that covered first get your horse Under Euro 7 it will have to fitted with a DPF bucket underneath to catch the urine and then a exhaust bucket to catch any particulates from the exhaust end and an emissions meter , horse shoes have to made of rubber and have 8mm tread on them on the harness headlights and indicators have to be fitted , the trap /cart will need ruber tyres with suitable tread brake lights +side lights and indicators plus you emissions sticker driving it in town will require congestion charges and arter 1 year if you registered it after april 2017 you will have to pay VED @ £140 after the 3 year this goes up to £450 ,
For sale one pony and trap or swap for a push bike please apply Gumtree !
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Euro 7 won't apply to the UK - we'll be out of the EU by then.
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Euro 7 won't apply to the UK - we'll be out of the EU by then.
I expect if all manufacturers here make Euro 7 cars for other countries we will get them as well, especially as our Cities are after clean air and may push for them.
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And of course the pony and trap will require an MOT test when it is three years old.
Any volunteers from MOT testers to be the first to test emissions with the probe err.....ummm ..up the pony's exhaust pipe?
Edited by focussed on 18/01/2017 at 00:27
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And of course the pony and trap will require an MOT test when it is three years old.
Any volunteers from MOT testers to be the first to test emissions with the probe err.....ummm ..up the pony's exhaust pipe?
Health & Safety probably wouldnt allow it, danger of methane explosion
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Getting conflicting messages from London, one comment made during the foggy time was wood burning fires were causing the worst of the pollution
though as long as parking charges in my area are not affected, they can do what they like as I hate London anyway and do my best to stay away
also the bike superhighway is making pollution worse in the city as its slowing traffic to a crawl, they call it good for the environment.??
Bikes appear to be helpng pollution by slowing cars down so whats the point?
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Higher parking charges to spread to other (labour controlled?) towns and cities?
Not a problem, another nail in the coffin of the high st, a place we seldom venture anyway, we'll just increase our online shopping and the town centres can do whatever they like.
As for that there London, the only time i go near the place is when someone is paying me to drive a company vehicle, other than that you couldn't drag me there.
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Higher parking charges to spread to other (labour controlled?) towns and cities?
The borough proposing the charge in London is (Conservative controlled) Westminster.
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"Not a problem, another nail in the coffin of the high st, a place we seldom venture anyway, we'll just increase our online shopping and the town centres can do whatever they like.
As for that there London, the only time i go near the place is when someone is paying me to drive a company vehicle, other than that you couldn't drag me there"
Second that 100%.
Shopping in city centres; I once said years ago to an area manager of a major retailer that their time is nearly up, due mainly to the (then advancing) internet shopping. I was slapped down with comments like "people will always want shops). That particular chain went kapput. The other main beef of mine is .parking fees. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to see the future from parking alone.
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Something that would help pollution would be to stop road works going on at rush hour times.
Around my way on every route towards London there are a set of traffic light controlled road works, its insane now, what should be a 20 minute journey is now 1 1/2 hours
whatever happened to the steel plates they used to put over road so traffic could drive without stopping,
they blame us for the emmisions but its not our fault we get stuck in traffic jams that councils cannot organise properly, also most road surfacing is now done during the night, so why cant roadworks ?
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Getting conflicting messages from London, one comment made during the foggy time was wood burning fires were causing the worst of the pollution
I don't think that's actually case.
In absence of usual westerly airflow pollution was up last week across whole of UK. In those conditions London's geography, as well as it's population, makes it particularly susceptible to build up of pollutants. The worst examples of course were in fifties, before smokeless zones etc.
Last week all measuring points in the capital were recording pollution way in excess of permitted levels. Wood smoke apparently has a distinct spectroscopic 'signature' and was noticeable in quantities not noted say 10yrs ago. Not the main or worst contributor though.
www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/29/pollut...t
also the bike superhighway is making pollution worse in the city as its slowing traffic to a crawl, they call it good for the environment.??
Bikes appear to be helpng pollution by slowing cars down so whats the point?
I don't think there's any evidence for that outside of back chat in cabbies refuges.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 31/01/2017 at 14:36
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I don't think there's any evidence for that outside of back chat in cabbies refuges
There were enough drivers complaining about it when it was first opened, due to narrowing of roads it was made on, but then, cyclists are happy thats all that counts as TFL want to get rid of cars anyway
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Will they use ANPR to check which cars are diesel, (badges can de changed), or will they dip fuel tanks?
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Will they use ANPR to check which cars are diesel, (badges can de changed), or will they dip fuel tanks?
ANPR - it's recorded in the vehicle registration - along with it's Euro classification as they may hit older diesels hardest.
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Its possible the ULEZ may be brought forward a year..
www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-pro...z
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To maybe add a practical situation to an interesting discussion...
I wish to buy a used Mazda 6.
Do a regular commute run of around 20 miles there and back. Once a month a 250 mile round trip to see son.
Would like an automatic.
So do I buy a diesel 2.2 or petrol 2.0l?
Diesel - more MPG, DPF problems maybe due to short journeys, lower road tax due to lower CO, but is this car as clean as they say.
Petrol - probably better suited to style of journeys, lower MPG, higher road tax due to higher CO, maybe actually cleaner that diesel.
I thought I wanted a petrol but now I'm not so sure. Only time ew've had a diesel before wife managed to fill with petrol twice in a year!
Thoughts, points to consider?
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There have been a lot of issues with Mazda diesels, and it isn't clear whether even in the newer ones they've solved the problems.
On the other hand, the petrol Mazda 6 has an excellent reputation: given that as you say your mileage doesn't justify a diesel, go for the petrol every time.
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Don't buy a petrol Mazda until you have had a really good test drive. They might have the all singing, all dancing SkyActive engine but that does not mean they are a good drive.
We have looked at the Mazda 3 and the Mazda 6 petrols in the past 18 monthd and it must be said they are both cracking looking cars that are very well speced and very well priced. But the driving manners of the petrols is not what I have come to expect in modern cars. You need to rev the engines into the upper reaches of the range to get the best performance and doing this repeatedly is not relaxing. And when you rev the nuts off the the engines they are still poor compared to the much more fuel efficient VAG 1.4 TSi units. These have brilliant power all the way form 1500 rpm to the 6000+ rpm redline, they drive better than any diesel. The VED of the Mazdas is much higher than the VAG cars which save quite a bit annually but that all changes in April.
I have owned a Seat Leon 1.4 TSi 140 PS for coming up 4 years and next month I take delivery of a Skoda Superb with the 1.4 TSi 150 PS engine. The equivalent Mazda 6 would have cost me a bit less cash but the driving experience failed to meet my expectations by big margin.
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I avidly support new technology, but, and is a big but, how long does it take to recharge an electric car battery? can you imagine the queues for charging points on motorways, you get queues for petrol/diesel, and that only takes a few minutes.
I foresee hundreds of cars lined up for hours recharging their batteries.
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I avidly support new technology, but, and is a big but, how long does it take to recharge an electric car battery? can you imagine the queues for charging points on motorways, you get queues for petrol/diesel, and that only takes a few minutes. I foresee hundreds of cars lined up for hours recharging their batteries.
So do I, but it appears graphene mixed with Li Ion batteries may improve battery charging and last longer, ie charge will last longer after a short charge,apparently a phone maker is starting to use them
they are supposedly to recharge fully in 15 minutes a 4500mah battery
they are looking at using them in a car
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Diesel is dead - Long live diesel. The technowledgy to make clean diesel car is well established and used on millions of commersial vehicles, it just has not been used on cars because its expensive and car makers want to keep the cost down and make lots of money. If a car is not using Adblue with a reduction catalyst then its producing lots of NOx its as simple as that. Most makes use a lean NOx trap that works well enough but takes a lot of fuel to operate it so mpg takes a big hit. To minimise this most cars makes turn the emmisions control off after about 20 minutes driving ( the lenght of the test ) using the escape clause " to protect the engine "
So its Hobsons choice, diesel with lots of NOx and low CO2 or petrol with lots of CO2 and less NOx. With a DPF fitted particulates are much the same on new cars petrol and diesel. VW are planning to fit a DPF to their petrol cars !
I have been a diesel fan for many years and still am because I dont drive in the city and thats the only place NOx is a problem, it gets trapped amonge the buildings, but in open areas it is removed from the atmospher by natural chemical reaction and its pretty well gone in 10 days, it even removes methane from the atmosphere one of the very worst greenhouse gases. It contributes to global cooling not warming.
If anything is going to put me off buying another diesel its the high cost of replacing the emissions hardware, EGR valve and cooler, DPF and reduction catalyst they dont seem to last that well and cost a lot. Even one bill of £1000 will take the smug 60mpg smile off my face But I do like diesels, they drive better.
Edited by Charles Harkin on 31/01/2017 at 00:09
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Possible Hydrogen fuel cell may come sooner than expected
world.honda.com/news/2017/c170131eng.html?r=m
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I agree with skidpan regarding the lack of midrange pulling power without a turbocharger but having driven both the current Leon 1.2 TSi and a Mazda 3 1.5 recently I'd personally take the Mazda and I doubt the Leon 1.4 v Mazda 2.0 would make much difference to me.
I favour the Mazda's handling and ride ballance which is more important to me personally than outright performance. The gearchange is much nicer and while it might not get you down the road as quickly I'm confident the Mazda will still be running long after some expensive failure has killed off the Leon.
Don't think I'm suggesting for one moment that the Leon is a bad car, far from it. It's a great small family car and far better value than a Golf. I'm just stating my preference. I'd buy the Mazda 6 with a 2.0 petrol Skyactiv engine any day, in fact the estate will be on our list when we replace our Honda CRV.
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Having owned a diesel car of some description for the best part of 24 years, i'd taken the plunge and was considering a modern Turbocharged petrol, however I just can't get on with the lack of torque, and even the modest Turbo Diesels I owned back in the late 90's seemed to have more get up and go than a mid sized Petrol 1.4 SUV with 150 BHP.
The SUV I test drove was a Seat Ateca 1.4TSi DSG and whilst it kept up with the Traffic it felt very sluggish when pulling out of junctions and lacked throttle response, the same engine in an Octavia was better and felt more lively, but still seemed to lack the mid range power of a diesel, even though my previous diesel didn't have a much higher BHP figure, it did have a much higher torque figure and I suspect that this is the main difference.
The other problem is finding the right petrol engine for your choice of car, Skoda doesn't seem to list a 1.4TSI DSG option on the Yeti for either the standard or outdoor model, and I was told that I would need to wait 20 - 24 weeks for the 1.4 engine in an Ateca - so it looks like its going to be Diesel again. But I did try!.
Fortunately i'm on the borderline where a Diesel justifies the extra cost, but despite my annual mileage being over 12k a year, i'm still not confident about the DPF aspect, but equally i'm not going to wait nearly half a year for the delivery of the 1.4 Ateca or drive long journeys in the 1.2 TSi Yeti which is described in several places as being underpowered on the Motorway.
Interestingly, the Skoda, Seat and Peugeot Dealers I visited all said that they still sell a huge number of new Diesel cars, so either the public aren't buying into all of the Anti-Diesel propaganda or they just don't care . Perhaps its because the decent petrol options either don't exist in their first choice or you can turn into a cobweb covered skeleton waiting for delivery of them!.
Its also interesting to read that Bentley have just launched a Diesel option, for the 2017 Bentayga. Strange that they should choose to launch a Diesel option for the first time ever, at a time when Diesel is rumoured to be approaching a legislative based death in as little as a few years. Will they recoup their R&D costs in such a short time? will all of the other manufacturers recoup their R&D costs on all of the new Diesel models released in 2017?, there seem to be plenty of them. Perhaps the Manufacturers aren't buying into the whole death of diesel thing either.
Edited by Chris James on 13/02/2017 at 22:01
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Perhaps the Manufacturers aren't buying into the whole death of diesel thing either
some car companies are saying they can improve diesels a fair bit to make them more efficient and cleaner for the air, I see no reason why not apart from some I hear are giving up on them, possibly because of costs
Trumps attitude may change things as well?
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