Edited by Cluedo on 29/10/2016 at 22:36

If it left or arrived within 10 minutes of the scheduled time then it was classed as on time

well it was when I used to travel on the railways, I got so fed up with traveling in a tin can I decided to go by car into London, I would rather at the time get stuck in traffic jams in comfort than get squeezed into a carriage usually full of coughing and spluttering people.....even though the roads were bad then. 80s

Recently in Germany I sampled the trains around Munich and you're absolutely correct, they run to the second. it's a bit of a cliche but it's true. The other noticeable thing was in 5 days I did not see a single piece of litter in the streets. These kinds of observations do make me wonder where we have gone wrong in our UK, because as you say, we are behind in every single aspect I can think of.

Have we no pride in ourselves, our work however menial, and our surroundings?

Judging by the local park where I take the dog, No. If you go there in the morning before the council workers get there it's like a McDonalds rubbish tip in the car park. Disgraceful, I wonder if they just chuck their rubbish on the floor in their homes?

Councils like paying vast armies of people to do non-jobs or ones that elsewhere in the world stopped existing 30 years ago, plus of course, those endless layers of bureaucratic/useless (failed private sector) management or outsourcing that costs more money to do a worse job, using the aforementioned SAME STAFF, just with an extra layer of managers to look after contracts. Plus idiot councillors who have mostly no idea what they are doing, having little experience in the real world (whatever their political hue - just varying degrees of uselessness, save a few good'uns) or who engage in 'headline-grabbing initiatives' which are mostly expensive white elephants.

I actively ask to NOT work on Public Sector projects because they are so inefficient and waste my time (many fingers dipping into the pies wanting changes/things done their way) which my firm won't get paid for.

. Didn't we redefine what late meant for our trains not long ago i.e. If it left or arrived within 10 minutes of the scheduled time then it was classed as on time.

Since 1997, part of the Citizens' Charter IIRC. Measure is of on time arrival at destination. 10 minutes is for long distance services, it's 5 mins for commuter services.

Moving average for year across all operators is c 90%. Anybody able to be that accurate by car?

Recently read a book about railway history, which noted that in the three weeks after declaration of war in 1914 a total of 670 extra trains carrying troops, horses and equipment to channel ports ran, not one of these was late!

To be expected as they'd have absolute priority over other trains.

The purpose of my post was not to run a comparison between car and train travel. It was a reflection of how poor we are in this country when it comes to any public service or infrastructure activity. Every other developed country seems to be able to do most things correctly except us. If a train is supposed to leave at 7:00 why do we think it is ok to leave at 7:10 ? You can imagine US and UK special forces doing a combined raid on ISIL together. If we used U.K. timekeeing the US would have been in and out before we got there 10 minutes late.

I was under the impression we are poor as a nation, but our government doesnt like spending any money it has got on its own nation, but prefers to spend what it has got abroad, or have I got that wrong?

The purpose of my post was not to run a comparison between car and train travel. It was a reflection of how poor we are in this country when it comes to any public service or infrastructure activity. Every other developed country seems to be able to do most things correctly except us. If a train is supposed to leave at 7:00 why do we think it is ok to leave at 7:10 ?

I think you're looking at this through some sort of distorting lens (UK press?)

There is no measure for on-time departures. What is measured is arrival at terminating destination and that's where the 10 mins' or 5 for commuter services, measure is applied. Of course the (private company) operators game that by concentrating recovery minutes in last stage - compare journey times London to Milton Keynes with reverse direction. And plenty of the delays that do occur are down to passengers scurrying in late, messing up doors etc

Commuting between Northampton and London from 1990 until 2013 had it's low spots for protracted engineering works and during the post Hatfield 'gauge corner cracking' crisis. But latterly it was uncanny how often, using the 17:14 train from Euston, I was in the car and catching the 18:25 market and currency reports on the BBC news while waiting for same set of lights to change.

But however you look at it, one only has to travel about in any western European country to realise the lack of investment, poor management, the lack of pride and the lack of respect we have for our own country. I walked the dog this morning in a part of Monmouthshire. We walked past a lay by leading into woods. we had to navigate through discarded Mc Donald wrappers, half eaten chips, cans, mixed up with bits and pieces of dope and fags. Then on past the remains of a nice wooden sign, now stolen. Haven't seen anything to compare with that mess anywhere else in Europe. It makes me very sad and ashamed to be British.

These foreign truckers should respect our countryside better!

I think a lot of it is down to the management of the funds available. The people 'in charge' haven't got a clue.

For example, my local council (who regularly bleat about their poverty)

Having worked for a council for years, I come to the same conclusion.

They are custodians of other peoples money so they have no respect for it. There was terrible waste in my department, so I assume it happens everywhere. If they were private businesses, they would be bankrupt within months.

Although you don't have to have worked for a council to see what a hash up they have made of certain areas in the UK for years!

It's very sad when the same areas could have so much potential in the hands of forward thinking people and actually make them desirable to visit.

For example, my local council (who regularly bleat about their poverty) have decided to spent £millions turning a roundabout into another one of these traffic light nightmares, despite most people being of the view it will only make things worse.

Near here in Pontefract there was a roundabout at the main junction in town, it was busy but it worked. Then the council decided to change it to all traffic lights...it din't work out and have recently changed it back to a roundabout. So they might be spending out even more soon when it doesn't work out!

These foreign truckers should respect our countryside better!

And our laws.....see Daily Mail front page today. It's about time they had to buy a carnet for motorway use as soon as they get off the boat - many of them don't even buy fuel here, so contribute nothing towards the litter, damage, wear and tear, death etc they cause. Every time I use a French or Swiss motorway I have to pay through the nose - why shouldn't Europeans pay to use ours?

That won't change until after Brexit - but then the UK government has to work out how to charge all the EU trucks travelling between the Channel ports and Ireland (maybe Scotland too if they get their way) - it will be totally unacceptable to UK motorists if they get free passage.

But however you look at it, one only has to travel about in any western European country to realise the lack of investment, poor management, the lack of pride and the lack of respect we have for our own country. I walked the dog this morning in a part of Monmouthshire. We walked past a lay by leading into woods. we had to navigate through discarded Mc Donald wrappers, half eaten chips, cans, mixed up with bits and pieces of dope and fags. Then on past the remains of a nice wooden sign, now stolen. Haven't seen anything to compare with that mess anywhere else in Europe. It makes me very sad and ashamed to be British.

Bazza, take a trip to Paris, Milan, Rome, Amsterdam and have a look at the graffiti - it's everywhere, we were due to stay 3 days in Amsterdam but left early this summer just too seedy for words. That's before you get to Southern European cities, try Naples or Ma***ille, even Liverpool looks good in comparison.

Have some pride in your country and stop looking for the negatives. Did you think about picking up some of the litter or is that someone else's job?

All depends where you live, plenty of places where I'm lucky enough to live look look like this, added bonus that this is only 1 hour from central London. Much of this is down to community action and responsibility as well with local residents doing everything from litter picking to making sure ducks are well fed and housed, defibrilator that people know where to find it and thanks to local doctor plenty trained to use it. I get really fed up with people moaning about their environment when they don't seem to be prepared to take proactive action - they all want someone else to do it for them.

Oh come on don't try and tell me you've not noticed the litter and Graffiti in many European cites, granted much of Scandinavia, Germany, Austria and Switzerland are beautifully kept but those southern European countries who have had year after year of recession truly are suffering and public services have been decimated in ways that we simply don't see in the UK.