Pulled out on while overtaking. - Ben Love

Hi All.

A couple of nights ago on my way home from work, I was in a maximum speed limit single carriage way.There were 3 cars I was approaching sitting at approximately 25 mph. I edged out to the right to see if there was anything causing the hold up for example a push bike. There was nothing in front with no reason to be driving so slow. I indicated out to the right, as I passed the first of 3 cars, the 2nd cars decided it was also going to overtake pulling out without checking her mirrors straight into the front left corner of my vehicle.

This sent her car into a bit of a spin sending her car straight down the right hand side of my vehicle resulting in her hitting a tree and damaging the whole right hand side of my car.

I had indicated out and left my indicator on for the duration of the overtake however she just pulled straight out into the side of me without any indication when I was more or less parallel meaning I had no chance of stopping.

From a liability perspective who is at fault? I was performing a perfecting safe overtake in clear conditions on a mile stretch of clear road keeping below the speed limit and indicated correctly.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - skidpan

The physical evidence will show that the front of your car hit the side of hers thus its your fault.

You need a witness to confirm she pulled out without checking her mirrors and hit your car, how will you do that.

It will probably be put down as a 50/50.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - FP

"The physical evidence will show that the front of your car hit the side of hers thus its your fault."

Hm. It's the word "thus" that bothers me. It implies there is a logical conclusion to be drawn between the two parts of the sentence.

Just because the front of one car hits the side of the other there is no reason to assume the fault lies with the former.

The crucial factors are the positions of the two vehicles at the point of collision, relative to the road, and the movements of both just prior. As Skidpan says, evidence is needed, in the form of witnesses and/or dashcam footage. (And possibly any skidmarks and the damage to the tree etc.)

If the events were exactly as described by the OP he is in the clear; the problem is proving it.

(I must add that alternative explanations are not going to sound plausible, e.g. the OP's car was driving past on what appeared to be an overtake, but inexplicably pulled to the left into one of the cars being overtaken.)

Edited by FP on 03/02/2016 at 11:01

Pulled out on while overtaking. - skidpan

"The physical evidence will show that the front of your car hit the side of hers thus its your fault."

This is based on personal experience and the generally accepted logic that if the front of a car is damaged its likely that the car hit another object.

Dad's experience some years ago. Car was parked and another car reversed into the front of it. Owner accepted liability and cars were repaired. Months later a letter arrived from the insurance telling dad since he had hit another car, it was his fault and would loose his no claims. Took months of letters before they finally accpeted its very difficult for a parked car to hit anything and reinstated no-claims.

Wifes experience. Stationary in a que at lights when the van in front reversed into her, he had overshot the stop line slightly. Driver accepted it was their fault stating "sorry luv, was on the fekkin phone" (it was a Virgin Media van). Insurance company decided it was joint liability but after some letters and acceptance from the driver he reversed into her they fully reinstated her no-claims.

So as I said above, if the front is damaged the insurers will assume its your fault unless you can prove otherwise.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Ben Love

I am hoping that the physical evidence will show that the damage to the front left hand corner of my car and the rear right hand corner of her car along with skid marks on the road will show that I was pulled out into and attempted to brake to the best of my ability.

The only issue is she was knocked unconcious at the time of the accident. I am hoping she sees sence when talking to the insurance / police and tells the truth.

I think it should go to my advantage I have been driving almost 4 years with no accidents and she was 18 and been driving a few months.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - skidpan

I think it should go to my advantage I have been driving almost 4 years with no accidents and she was 18 and been driving a few months.

Do not try and use that as way of prroving your innocence. Not all experienced drivers are gods and not all new drivers are careless.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - FP

"I am hoping that the physical evidence will show..."

" I am hoping she sees sence..."

"I think it should go to my advantage I have been driving almost 4 years with no accidents..."

I hate to pour cold water, Ben. Despite my careful deconstruction of Skidpan's earlier remarks, I agree that the real-world situation is often much grimmer than we would like.

Some things for you to ponder:

1. The police may not be interested and no detailed investigation will take place. If no-one was seriously injured it probably won't happen.

2. Similarly, the insurance company will want to take the line of least resistance and may well decide on 50:50 liability. You may try to force the issue if you lose your excess and/no-claims bonus, but in view of point 1 you probably won't get anywhere.

3. Your accident-free four years counts for nothing in this situation.

If you had had a dashcam it would have provided some useful evidence which the police and insurance company might very well have been interested in, as it costs them nothing. It could have resulted in a prosecution for careless driving and you keeping your excess and no-claims bonus.

I hate to say so, but I think you will lose both.

Edited by FP on 03/02/2016 at 12:22

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Cyd

So, despite being a newish driver she had already forgotten the 'mirror signal manouvre' axim?? Had she done either (or preferably both) of the first two this would probably never had happened.

Can't help wondering though:- in your second post you mention she was knocked unconscious (I know what that is like as I can't yet drive after a nasty mountain bike accident in September last), yet in none of your posts do you mention the Police attending (or even being called). It is my understanding that in any accident where there is injury it is a legal requirement to call the Police. Or is this not so?

Pulled out on while overtaking. - gordonbennet

I wouldn't like to say how this will pan out, there are hundreds of possible scenarios to consider here and unless a credible (skilled and fair minded driver) independant witness comes forward, or you, the third party, or one of the other cars you overtook, happens to have a good quality dashcam and submits the footage and its worth viewing, then i agree with the others that proportioning blame will be difficult and could go any way.

As a general comment not just this scene, overtaking a line of cars, preumably in the dark, can be a hazardous affair, not helped by the constantly increasing blinding effect of lights all around, if you put yourself in the other drivers position for a moment, you're unsure of the road and possibly trying to peer round a slow moving vehicle to overtake it (yes i know most people follow too close and lose field of vision but this is dumbed down Britain where one size fits all), so eventually you see a space and maybe glance in the mirror, indicate and start to pull out, which is fine unless a massive speed differential is thrown into the mix.

Several things contribute here, even if you were indicating, far too many cars have indicators too close to the headlights, in some cases you have a job to see them at all if you catch the edge of the headlight beams where colours flash, and this would be the case as the edge of your beams hit her door mirror, but never let safety and common sense get in the way of fashion eh designers... and many modern headlights which if you happen to catch the edge of the beam have a prism/spectrum effect which again helps to cancel out what should be easily seen indicators if they'd been sited away from the headlights as they used to be.

Then and this is where things have gone wrong IMO, i make no criticism here because i am one who takes little notice of speed limits whilst actually overtaking on a 2 way road...time exposed to danger and all that...you make special mention of being at or below the speed limit for the road, that tells me you were possibly doing up to 60 as you passed, now i have no argument with that sort of overtaking speed difference when one vehicle is being passed, but a 35mph difference past a line of cars might be considered risky in the cold light of dawn depending upon visibility due to the possible danger of what actually did happen (and a good driver would be expecting this to happen), if our young lady driver glanced in her mirror she could easily pull out on you at a 35mph speed differential any average driver could be forgiven for not expecting...as i say i'm not criticising you because i wasn't there and neither was anyone else bar the vehicles involved at the time, but you can see just from those points alone how there are so many ways this could be looked at.

One other thing, i hope your headlights are legal and no extra lights were in use.

Edited by gordonbennet on 07/02/2016 at 10:39

Pulled out on while overtaking. - scot22

We could really do with a like button. Your posts frequently deepen and broaden my knowledge/thinking thanks.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - gordonbennet

You're too kind Scot, unfortunately i tend to waffle and don't explain as briefly as i should.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - galileo

We could really do with a like button. Your posts frequently deepen and broaden my knowledge/thinking thanks.

Seconded, I too value GB's contributions, he has done more miles in a greater variety of vehicles than most of us, there is no substitute for real world experience and sensible conclusions drawn from it

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Avant

Hear, hear.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - nick62

Insurance companies do not (in my humble opinion) attempt to protect their customers interest and always opt for 50:50 in these circumstances.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - daveyjp

Multiple overtaking is risky, regardless of circumtances and possibly something not to be considered unless you have had additional training. I've seen so many near misses that it's not something I would encourage.

You need to treat every vehicle as a separate overtaking manouver and have an escape route at all times. This means overtaking the first vehicle, then hanging back slightly for the second before continuing.

It gives you time to reassess, tuck in if required and also the opportunity for the next vehicle to see you.

To be 100% fault free in these circumstances you will need to show that your approach was in no way careless. She may have messed up on MSM procedure, but doing a risky multiple overtake also be considered contributory to the accident.

Just be happy no one has any serious injuries and do some reading on how to do multiple overtakes safely. Roadcraft book or ridedrive website are both useful resources.

Edited by daveyjp on 08/02/2016 at 12:41

Pulled out on while overtaking. - galileo

As Davey says, it can be risky overtaking several cars at once, mainly because the need for it is usually because there is a string of 'creepers' following each other, and 99% of the time none of them has left an adequate gap to the one in front, so it is all or nothing.

So it is likely they don't possess great skill or awareness and anything could happen if you go for it - be prepared!

Pulled out on while overtaking. - SteVee

This is a common probem for bikers - you need to watch the line very carefully for any intention to pull out. Even if you're not the first bike past, you can still be hit by someone thinking 'I'll follow that bike that's just gone past'.
As a bike rider, you are the most likely to be injured, so you really do need to get the overtake right and beware of going too fast.

You would probaly need legal representation to push the claim fully onto the person that pulled out - especially without video or eyewitness.
Is there a police report for the accident (considering that the other party was injured) ?

Pulled out on while overtaking. - slkfanboy

>Multiple overtaking is risky, regardless of circumtances and possibly something not to >be considered unless you have had additional training. I've seen so many near misses >that it's not something I would encourage.

I tend to agree that a line of cars is more risky, but I don't see any comment in the highway code to say don't.

While the other driver breached Rule 168 it would need some proof to be suppurted. This might be aided by the other drivers account of what happened.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - galileo

I tend to agree that a line of cars is more risky, but I don't see any comment in the highway code to say don't.

Rule 162 : Before overtaking, you should make sure:

there .is a suitable gap in front of the road user you intend to overtake

Rule 163: move quickly past the vehicle you are overtaking

These comments refer to a single vehicle, implying multiple overtakes are not recommended

Edited by galileo on 09/02/2016 at 15:59

Pulled out on while overtaking. - skidpan

I do multiple overtakes, on some roads drivers daudle along like they have lost the will to live and if you want to travel at a decent yet legal speed there is no alternative.

But I always ensure there is space for me to get in should a car appear from nowhere.

Problem is the muppets who daudle along generally refuse to let you in even in a tricky situation.

But thats another thread.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - daveyjp
People refusing to let you in, or driving too close are reasons why multiple overtakes are so risky.


Pulled out on while overtaking. - gordonbennet

Yes its certainly a dilemma when to go for it, a lot to compute in that split second.

Very rarely do i multiple overtake any more, the few times i do i probably pay as much attention to the cars i'm about to go by as anything else, quite apart from the inept and mind elsewhere crew who might do anything, you ocassionally find the phsycho who will pull all sorts of strokes to avoid being overtaken even if they have no intention of overtaking, nor driving any faster if they did, themselves.

I had reason to drive a road i don't use often in my wife's car last week, in the dark, came up behind a car transporter who despite the road being dark and wet stayed on (very short) dipped beam the whole time, made overtaking difficult to say the least...it got me thinking how easy you can make it for others in similar situations for everyone's benefit, i will use main beam whenever i can anyway, and if someone behind is likely to overtake i'll make sure to light the road up for them and keep the main beams on until they get the front of their car just past me...its safer for all of us in the end.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - slkfanboy

>phsycho who will pull all sorts of strokes to avoid being overtaken even if they have no >intention of overtaking, nor driving any faster if they did, themselves.

Yes, I always drop back a little bit to leave a gap if I am not in the mood for overtaking.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Ben Love

I fortunatly have now recieved an update regarding this.

After taking witness statements, statements from the other drive and crash investigation they have decided the other driver is at fault as they pulled out into my path. They have recomended her be placed on a driver improvement scheme rather than be prosecuted.

Hopefully the insurance company take the same view when they review this information.

Cheers

Pulled out on while overtaking. - skidpan

they have decided the other driver is at fault as they pulled out into my path. They have recomended her be placed on a driver improvement scheme rather than be prosecuted.

Presume "they" is the Police.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Ben Love

Indeed, they being the police.

Ironically they have lost the release forms this morning and are still working on getting the vehicle released to my insurance however!

I have it in writing in the context of an email from the dealing officer. Hopefully, this should be sufficient for my insurance. They have also requested a copy of the police report direct.

Cheers

Pulled out on while overtaking. - FP

After my earlier scepticism I'm happy to put on record my satisfaction that the situation has turned out well for the OP.

Presumably the insurance company will now fall into line.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - gordonbennet

Yes a good result for the OP, hopefully in writing on official paper so can be presented to your insurer as top trumps.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - iSwayz

The ultimate question was at the time of the events is that i wonder which car of the three in front was she? why was she pulling out to the right in the first place if she was under restrictions? Was the hazzard in front of her? Did the accident occur on the bend? In the situation stated it is always expected from a drivers point of view to assess the hazzard ahead ie the slow driver at the front and also assume that the first car behind the hazzards intentions are unknown.. Sometimes it is better to hang back.. Patience in those situations is key.. I remember in my learning days when i was heading down a single carrigeway coming towards a red light when a bmw came along and overtook me just before it cutting my stopping distance to near nothing and for what? He sat infront the whole way down the road.. Pointless and can be wreckless.. I also came accross people pulling out of streets infront of me due to the thought of inexperience but that led to near miss collissions due to using their experience to muscle out and merge.. curtsy is given not taken..

Pulled out on while overtaking. - FP

"I also came accross people pulling out of streets infront of me due to the thought of inexperience but that led to near miss collissions due to using their experience to muscle out and merge.."

I'm afraid I don't understand this sentence.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Gibbo_Wirral

Who cares, the thread is years old.

Please bear this in mind before replying.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - FP

Of course I saw that the thread was an old one, recently resurrected.

I was hoping to draw iSwayz out on why he had posted and what he intended to convey. A little bit of a challenge, if you like.

I thought it was worth doing - sorry if you didn't.

Pulled out on while overtaking. - Avant

No harm in resurrecting an old thread if there's something useful to add.

I'm afraid I don't understand all of what iSways is saying either - although I do wonder if the accident might have been averted if the lady hadn't been giving a curtsy (his last line).

 

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