VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Mike268

Hi,

I am after a bit of advice / gauging peoples opinions on what to do.

I have recently bought a VW Touran, last saturday, from a private sale. 2004 2.0TDI Sport with 118,000. Car was driving fine and really happy with it until it broke down on Thursday and on inspection from the AA the cambelt has snapped. Unlucky you might think, however in the service history it is showing as the cambelt has been replaced at 108000 miles (18months ago). However when speaking to the AA mechanic he said it was unlikely that the cambelt was ever replaced, but couldnt tell for sure until further inspection.

So the car is in the garage to investigate the cause of the cambelt snapping. I know ordinaraly there is no comeback with a private sale, however I feel that the car was misrepresented to me and sold with a service history that has been modified.

The cambelt is showing as being done in a garage, but there are no invoices for it, and I am unable to track down the garage that changed it. And it was not the owners that I bought the car from, but the previous owners that claim to have had it changed.

Do I have any comeback to the people that sold me the car as I feel it has been misrepresented to me, and had I known the cambelt hadnt been changed I wouldnt have bought the car, or certainly wouldn't have paid the price I did for it.

Opinions please...

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Bromptonaut

Private sale, remedy isgoing to be difficult. Start here:

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repai.../

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Mike268

Thanks,

In my opinion the car was not "as described", however I fear it might be hard to enforce this.

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - slkfanboy

I suspect it's going to be near imposable for you to get your money back regardless. I think the seller could simply state they had paid for the work to be done and had also been ripped off. It would be therefore up to you to prove it had not.

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - gordonbennet

You're going back two owners, the ones you bought the car from will simply state they bought the car in good faith from someone who had the belt changed, chances of a result nil IMHO but i'm as far from a legal expert as you can get.

Its entirely possible the belt was changed, the belt might have been perfectly fine and its an idler or water pump or other item that has failed, stripping or snapping the belt, which may or may not have been replaced when the belt was, cheap kit cheap or fewer parts?

Cambelt is the gamble you take, no receipt that looks genuine you must assume it hasn't been done, timing chains are no longer the guarantee of trouble free as once they were with extended service intervals thrown into the mix and cheap/poor chains and tensioning designs.

It doesn't help that belt routes and designs are cheap and nasty in most cases, the belt doing far too much work and too arduous a route, a belt has no place driving a water pump, the cambelt should do only one thing, drive the camshafts and be heavy enough to cope with that, its frankly amazing how well they do and how long they last in many cases...the other biggie is what a palaver a belt change is, its a service item yet a massive operation in all but a very few good (read good and engineeringly expensive) designs, but its not in most makers interests to make it easier to replace as in almost all cases the car will be out of makers warranty and long past its typical new car buyer timescale to worry about.

Your choice is between getting the existing engine rebuilt or finding a good used unit and getting it fitted, complete with a new full cambelt kit.

Edited by gordonbennet on 01/02/2016 at 09:47

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - John F

Its entirely possible the belt was changed, the belt might have been perfectly fine and its an idler or water pump or other item that has failed, stripping or snapping the belt, which may or may not have been replaced when the belt was, cheap kit cheap or fewer parts?

Quite so. Yet another sad story of huge bill following possibly unnecessary and certainly inadequate 'service'. I think the original belt would easily have lasted this long if all the pulleys it drove remained free and intact, and if it drives the number of pulleys shown in this clip....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAi667H7M2Y

.....I would not want to own it. I doubt if it was serviced as expertly as the mechanic does here.

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - gordonbennet

Indeed JohnF, talk about the belt going round the mulberry bush, amazing it lasts the year out.

This is how a belt should drive the cams, and only the cams, world without end, Amen. en.allexperts.com/q/Toyota-Repair-832/2012/2/1999-...m

Note the timeline, good 90's design again.

Edited by gordonbennet on 01/02/2016 at 16:18

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - John F

Indeed JohnF, talk about the belt going round the mulberry bush, amazing it lasts the year out.

This is how a belt should drive the cams, and only the cams, world without end, Amen. en.allexperts.com/q/Toyota-Repair-832/2012/2/1999-...m

Absolutely, GB - and our 2000 1.6 Focus is even better - just the one (tension) pulley and see how robust the belt is.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fva6d3kZas

Hardly surprising that Zetec belt failures are as rare as hen's teeth considering the number there are out there.

I serviced its ribbed v belt not so long ago which drives the other things. Bend toothbrush to rt angle over candle, dip in paraffin and carefully hold against idling belt to clean any debris from the V channels. Finish off with water and spot of detergent, allow to dry, then squirt belt dressing at it. This also should last the life of the car. (addendum for careless mechanics - collect amputated fingers and hurry to A & E)

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - gordonbennet

our 2000 1.6 Focus is even better - just the one (tension) pulley and see how robust the belt is

Thats a good simple robust design, all cars should be like that, 90's design again, i know i keep saying it but car's peaked then, too many that came after have been made far too complicated and the cynic in me believes it to be deliberately getting away from examples like that.

Your dicing with injury workshop practices make great reading, mind you they should come with a govt health warning...:-)

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - FP

"... I feel that the car was misrepresented to me and sold with a service history that has been modified."

Herein lies your problem. I don't have sufficient legal knowledge to be able to say what the status is of a car's service history record. If it's regarded as unreliable or insufficiently detailed to carry any weight, you have no starting point for a claim. And are you saying it has actually been fraudently altered? Evidence?

If this was the only "representation" made when you bought the car, I think you're pretty much sunk. You don't seem to have any evidence of the seller vouching for the cambelt change. And, as others have said, if the seller were to plead ignorance about whether the work was actually carried out, that could leave you without a remedy.

A private sale is always fraught with potential disasters like this. However, you should have paid considerably less than a dealer's price and having the belt changed and any other related work at your expense shouldn't be unreasonable. Do we actually know whether the engine has been damaged?

Edited by FP on 01/02/2016 at 10:58

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Mike268
The car is currently in the garage to determine the extent of damage caused, but probably won't know for a couple days. Fortunately the price we paid was lower than a dealer price, but it is entirely possible that the cost of repairs will mean that a repair/new engine would prove uneconomical.

With regards to the service history being altered on closer inspection it does look as if someone has indeed tampered with it and changed the details, however this is only visible on close inspection and not when just glancing at it.

The sellers did verbally confirm that the cam belt had been changed, but I guess it is easy to deny anything said verbally.

Either way I fear that I might be on my own on this one as you suggest.

Edited by Mike268 on 01/02/2016 at 11:22

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - YG2007

By rights the car should have had 2 timing belt changes on age. As a previous thread said the cause of the failure needs to be understood, siezed pully, fault with tensioner water pump bearing etc. An oil leak onto the timing belt from say the cam seals could also cause the timing belt to fail prematurely. The onus on you is to prove that the private sellar new that the timing belt service hadnt been done and if it was prior to their ownership then it would be even more difficult to prove. Caveat Empter I'm afraid

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Galaxy

As gordonbennett has said, they may-well have have had the garage change the timing belt, but not the tensioner, pulleys, water pump, etc. All of these, if applicable on that particular engine, need to be changed, too.

Just changing the cambelt only is asking for trouble in the future, but, of course, works out considerably cheaper to do.

Private sale? You've on your own, I'm very sorry to say, OP. Had you purchased from a dealer then it would have been a completely different story.

Edit. When the engine is dismantled for inspection you will be able to tell whether the cambelt was changed 10,000 miles ago, or not, because you will still be able to read the manufacturers printing on it.

Edited by Galaxy on 01/02/2016 at 13:24

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - nailit

This will not help but, just for info;

The previous 1.9 tdi VAG (as in 1997 onwards to 200x) prior to PD, had the water pump driven by the aux belt not the cam belt, that is on the AFN engine. I'm reliably informed the AFN were the most reliable engines, Taxi drivers love them and refuse to upgrade, 250,000 miles is barely "run in" to them.

Not sure if this changed or not afterwards.

Edited by nailit on 01/02/2016 at 13:43

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - Mike268
Thankyou all for your feedback, unfortunately I did think it would be hard to get anywhere with this situation. But needed to try as car is likely to be uneconomical to repair, although won't know until the garage investigate.

Will soon be looking for another new car I think.
VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - RobJP

I imagine plenty of people have been caught out similarly, in various ways, over the years. It's only too easy to be wise after the fact.

While I know it seems a bit useless now, in future : unless a piece of work (anything) is backed up by a VAT invoice, assume it hasn't been done, and you are being lied to. Find out the cost of getting the job done, and reduce the price of the car accordingly.

I've known people buy cars with advisory points on the MOT. When the vendor is asked, they nearly always claim the work has been done, but they've lost the invoice.

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - skidpan

I serviced its ribbed v belt not so long ago which drives the other things. Bend toothbrush to rt angle over candle, dip in paraffin and carefully hold against idling belt to clean any debris from the V channels. Finish off with water and spot of detergent, allow to dry, then squirt belt dressing at it. This also should last the life of the car. (addendum for careless mechanics - collect amputated fingers and hurry to A & E)

As I said on the other thread where you posted this nonsense that is total stupidity. Using any oil based product will contaminate the belt causing it to degrade. The belt dressing you posted details of a while ago is not designed for automotive belt purposes.

Keep your downright stupid and dangerous practices off decent web forums.

VW Touran - Used car broken down advice please - quizman

John why don't you take off the belt and put it in a washing machine? A good dose of Daz would do wonders. Much safer than the dangerous toothbrush method.