Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - HandCart

What is the relationship between these?

In another thread, Unthrottled said:

The rolling resistance of the tyres… …increase massively at low temperatures” ,

and “Rain is a big factor, since the rolling resistance of tyres is much higher on a wet road than on a dry one and the splashed water keeps cooling the tyres.”

A few queries come to my mind:

The present tyres on my car are legal but only just. However my MOT is ~12 weeks away, and we’re coming into the supposedly-less-rainy months. So, while contemplating the urgency of replacing them, I wondered: In the dry, race cars use slicks for greater grip. BUT, if I replace my near-slicks (and the Michelin Energys certainly only have the major parts of the tread pattern left – all the minor sipes are now utterly absent) with some brand new tyres, will I get WORSE economy because of much more ‘squidge’ in the tall and much-more-numerous tread blocks? i.e. on my present tyres, in the dry, am I getting better grip AND lower rolling resistance?

Then: They talk of winter tyres being better at temperatures less than 7 deg C even if there’s no snow etc, because a ‘normal’ tyre’s rubber compound goes too hard and can’t grip properly. And yet Unthrottled says that the rolling resistance of tyres is massively higher at low temperatures. -?

And then: It is standard knowledge that (and not considering the aquaplaning case) braking distances are greater in the wet, due to lower grip; and I always noticeably found it easier to pedal my bicycle along a moderately wet road, suggesting lower rolling resistance. But Unthrottled says “rolling resistance of tyres is much higher on a wet road than on a dry one and the splashed water keeps cooling the tyres”.

Please can you elaborate on these apparent contradictions?


Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - craig-pd130

It's the rubber that grips the road; all the tread does is provide channels for water to escape from the tyre's contact patch. So yes, on dry roads you will certainly get no less grip with near-slicks, and possibly a little bit more. Not so on wet roads, obv ....

On a wet surface, the tyres do have to do more work in cutting through & dispersing the water, which will increase rolling resistance.

It's a bit different on a bike as the cycle tyre is much narrower, with a much smaller contact patch, which means a far smaller area of water to disperse.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - HandCart

Hmm... But if my bicycle tyre's contact patch is the same in either case (wet or dry) if it is shifting ALL the water out of the way, then A) work has presumably been done to shift that water aside, and B) I result in having the same contact patch on now-dry tarmac, so why would it feel easier to pedal? (not to mention easier to slide)

And compared with a car, a pushbike has a lower weight acting on its smaller contact patch, so is there a similarly-proportioned force with which to shift that water aside??

Obviously a car, going faster than a pushbike, has to shift the water at a faster RATE.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

The apparent contradiction comes from the confusion between rolling resistance and sliding friction. While driving along, the wheels are essentially rolling (although there is some slippage on the driven wheels). At the limit of braking, the tyres on the verge of essentially sliding, not rolling.

The ability of the tyre compound to flex gives lower rolling resistance and improved grip via the same mechanism. The softer the compound, the lower the hysteresis losses and the greater the limit of sliding friction.

I generally try to get my tyres as hot as I can, carrying speed into the corners and letting the tyres scrub the velocity. I always brake with the brakes, not the gears for the same reason. Hopefully the hot disc will conduct/radiate out enough heat and some of it will be absorbed by the wheel and tyre. Better to not stop at all of course!

There's no free lunch sadly-the hotter the tyre runs, the shoter its life. But there's no duty on tyres... ;-)

P.S. At one point I seriously considered diverting the tailpipe to exhaust over the rear wheel since the rear wheels always run cool. Yes, I'm sad.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - HandCart

I'm still not getting it...

"The ability of the tyre compound to flex gives lower rolling resistance"

Are you saying that a tyre covered in a multitude of tall, cornered blocks of soft rubber will have lower rolling resistance than a train-like solid steel wheel?


Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - HandCart

Aha... thinking about it some more, of course a steel wheel will have lower rolling resistance: This is the reason the balls and rollers in bearings are made from steel and not rubber!

So you will get lower rolling resistance with a tyre which has a very hard rubber compound and/or is pumped up to a huge internal pressure.

(But if rubber gets harder with lower temperatures, I still don't understand why Unthrottled said that rolling resistance is higher at lower temperatures)

With a hyperinflated tyre, assuming the tread layer's height is still the same, individual tread blocks may deform by the same amount, but will be in contact with the road (longitude of contact patch) for a shorter period of time per revolution and therefore heat up less? So the tread blocks stay harder.

Plus the contact patch's overall area is less, but then again the same weight is acting downwards on it, so do individual tread blocks actually have to deform by a greater amount, because the weight is carried by fewer of them?

In other words, given the same tyre, it offer less grip (sliding friction) when it is hyperinflated; but is this due to a smaller contact patch, or cooler tread blocks?

Regards my bicyling experience, I could envisage that, even if an irregular film of water molecules remain between tyre and road, if you were freewheeling in a totally straight line, the rolling resistance might be changed very little from dry conditions. But without a speedometer, I couldn't verify that. But I was referring to pedalling, i.e. I was having to propel the bike forward, so A) the rear wheel would be undergoing some slip due to the driving force, and B) it's likely the front wheel would be far from constantly upright and straight, so in the wet it probably was indeed the reduced sliding friction I was experiencing, rather than reduced rolling-resistance.

Back to one of my original queries: It is acknowledged that the deformation of the tread block absorbs energy; this is why the tread heats up. The car's engine must be furnishing this energy in addition to that required to drive the car against all the other resisting forces. But how do the tread blocks on a well-worn tyre deform in comparison? In other words, what I'm asking again is: For an identical tyre, at the same pressure, and neglecting the reduced overall diameter, does a virtually-worn-out one give lower rolling resistance (& better fuel economy) than a brand new one?

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

(But if rubber gets harder with lower temperatures, I still don't understand why Unthrottled said that rolling resistance is higher at lower temperatures)

It's a good question. I should have elaborated on the 'hysteresis' bit. When the tyre deforms, you lose a little bit of kinetic energy. But, if the tyre springs back perfectly as the pressure is removed, then the kinetic enery is recovered, so theres no net loss. But cold rubber is not perfectly elastic ie the tyre does not rebound to it's exact previous shape. That energy is converted to heat

Think of bouncing a ball. It doesn't rebound to the height you dropped it from. Some of the energy is lost in the ball not being perfectly elastic.

As you heat rubber up it becomes more elastic and so there is less plastic deformation.

Metal has superb rolling resistance because it is very elastic-much more so than rubber surprisingly. Unfortunately because the amount of deformation is so small, steel cannot adhere well to tarmac before slipping.

So your ideal tyre substance is perfectly elastic to give low rolling resistance-yet soft enough to deform sufficiently to adhere to tarmac to give maximum traction when required. Unfortunately soft substances tend not to be very elastic.

Overinflating the tyre reduces the amount of flexing of the carcass of the tyre (which is actually where most of the loss occurs).

Edited by unthrottled on 02/05/2012 at 17:52

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - HandCart

Ah, now I think I get it. So when the rubber is cold, the tread mainly undergoes plastic deformation, and the engine uses part of its output on energy which is merely heating up the tyre rubber. But the tyre rubber becoming heated eventually leads to the rubber exhibiting more elasticity and less plasticity, so then there is less of the engine’s energy wasted.

So what we really need is the tyre to be filled with (or even made from) some kind of ferro-foam, under the control of 2-axis g-sensors, so that when the car is ‘coasting’ arrow-straight, the carcass effectively becomes very stiff, but it can be softened by varying amounts when cornering / braking / acceleration is required.

The suspension could be controlled in the opposite sense, to keep the passenger ride constant.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

Bingo! That is a much more succinct explanation than mine.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - craig-pd130

A late addition to this thread. With the b***** awful weather this week, I had the chance to evaluate how much rolling resistance increases on a thoroughly rain-soaked road.

I was on the M6 heading south in heavy rain at 60mph, windspeed less than 5mph, lots of standing water on the carriageway. At that speed, and on the flat, the instant mpg read-out was showing around 40 - 43mpg.

A few miles further on, I'd emerged from the rain and the roads were almost dry. At 60mph on the flat in the same gear, instant mpg read-out was showing 60 - 65mpg.

The only difference was that my tyres weren't having to try to push large amounts of standing water away from the contact patches. Even so, the increase in fuel consumption surprised me. They're not especially wide tyres either (Pilot Premacy 205 / 55 16").

Obviously this is a fairly crude test but it does highlight how much work the tyres do on a wet surface.

Edited by craig-pd130 on 12/07/2012 at 12:47

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

That's great data.

If you think about it, 60mph is roughly 25m/s, the tyres are ~0.2m wide, so 1mm of surface water would mean that, together, the two front tyres were displacing of the order of 10 litres/s

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - RT

It's not all extra friction from the tyres - there's also extra aerodynamic drag because the "effective" air density is much higher - as well as normal air, the water in the spray/rain needs to be deflected.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

I didn't consider the effect of rain. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that the rain effect is probably small. You don't feel the car slow down when a sudden heavy shower starts but you definitely feel the car slow when you hit surface water.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - Collos25

I would have thought that was caused by a lack of friction and not resistance.

Grip / Friction / Rolling Resistance - unthrottled

Well, lack of friction would equal lack of retardation wouldn't it?!