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This is about cowboy clampers who have been getting away with their thuggish behaviour for a lot of years.Its a parking offence and its about time these people are stopped.If this peace of mostly derelict land is so inportant block it of or put a barrier on.People make mistakes with parking not to be charged 350 pounds for a minor offence and be frightened by these people.
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Is it another case of the law being changed in response to the extreme rather than the norm?
FTF
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So what happens to the owner of an area of private parking spaces that are leased out to regular users if someone just starts to trespass on that ground and park their car without paying. Short of going through the civil courts at considerable expense where is the sanction to stop the theft of the parking spaces.
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Sanction?
Easy. Block them in with another car.. For days...
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The cowboy clampers are nothing more than criminals in hi-vis vests, thugs and extortionists. They have brought this ban on themselves through their own greed and serves them right, I hope they loose their jobs and the companies fold. When a parking offence levies punishment greater than a dangerous driving we as a society have got our sense of justice utterly warped. Some of these company bosses and employees should be locked up and sent back to where they once spent some time. As for the landlords, well, tough on them for employing these scum.
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I do foresee a problem though. At the moment, it is generally regarded that a privately issued parking charge notice (as opposed to the penalty charge notice) is unenforceable.
So, I think it quite probable that any changes made to prevent clampers will add something to enable enforcement of the parking charge notice.
I could be wrong, but it would make sense.
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Three points:
1. It hasn;t happened yet and its not forcast to come in to effect until next year when the coalition may not even be in power. If the last 13 years have taught us anything its that until the law is actually passed its all vapourwear.
2. There is now absoilutely no defence to argue that this law should not be passed. Every owner of the least scarp of land I know has expoiited this situation to the maximum usually by contracting the worst thugs he can find to levy the biggest charges on the weakest victims. You had your chance to behave reasonably and you blew it. Even Tescos andf McDonalds usally the most customer savvy organisations exploited the situtaion to the maximum.
3. The actions of the DVLA giving out home address details to any thug who would stump up the £2 is scandalous and also illegal under the Data Protection Act and this abuse must stop. I know of one case where a ex husband bunged a thug working for a clamping firm to trace his ex wife who he subsequently beat up and I'm am sure there are thousands of other examples.
You have no one to blame but yourselves,
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This was discussed on this forum last year I believe.
Just to put the other side of the argument - again.........
I own a business which has a forecourt which is very plainly signed as for the use of customers only. Almost daily someone will park on it and wander off and not use my business. This is possibly taking money away from me, as should the area be full, including the non-customer, genuine customers may not call in. Possibly a loss of £100s of pounds worth of business.
As for Niallster's weakest victims, the worst abuse I got was from an elderly lady when I tried to politely explain the situation and ask that she parked elsewhere in future. No doubt she would have reverted to being a frail little old lady had I taken it any further and she went to the local paper.
There have been many times when I wish I had a gorilla with a wheel clamp, but the worst I did was to block a repeat offender in with one of our vehicles until I had made and drunk a mug of coffee.
Yes, many of these firms have gone way too far, but then many motorists are not the angels they make out to be.
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You have got a point but falling out with a elderly lady?She might have very big sons or daughters :)
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Agree with everything you've said ohsoslow.
There needs to be balance and I don't think clamping shouldn't be banned but there should be a maximum fee and huge warning signs should be displayed not hidden to catch people out. The bad clampers have put an end to their own business and its their own fault for being to greedy and conniving.
On a different note I'm all in favour of those parking on double yellow lines to have there cars taken away and crushed (not talking about delivery people here). So many lazy people about that won't walk 50 yards to a car park where I live.
Edited by carl_a on 17/08/2010 at 23:00
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I kind of knew as soon as I posted my nessage that a landowner would pop up and say 'well I behave well' and I am not doubting that Ohsoslow does but 99.99% don't and I do think the figure is that high.
Even poeple who would see themselves as kind caring pillars of the community knowingly hired thugs to do their dirty work for them and that is why no voluntary code will ever work and why this legislation is needed.
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a landowner would pop up and say 'well I behave well' and I am not doubting that Ohsoslow does but 99.99% don't and I do think the figure is that high.
So if you owned a small area of land next to your house and someone repeatedly parked on it, what would you do?
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>> (from above) They have brought this ban on themselves ...
But that's the issue, the rogues have brought in for all of them!!
FTF
Edited by fredthefifth on 17/08/2010 at 23:31
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Well Armstrong I can tell you what I wouldn't do and thats contract a bunch of thugs to terrorise the neighbourhood but hey thats just me.
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I have run the business for 14 years now and have never resorted to hiring any thugs. It certainly wouldn't help as we live within the small community where the business is. I try to reason with the people as I prefer a quiet life which works most of the time.
When the actions of these people potentially cost you money it becomes a bit annoying to say the least.
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Wheel clamping, especially if it's done under dodgy pretexts, is counter productive. It's done to stop unwanted car parking, but if a car is clamped car is stuck in the way until it;s released, taking up a parking space.
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Yes, Sofa, which is why I don't like blocking cars in as that really gums up the space I have. Only when I am really grumpy and it is a re-offender will I consider doing it.
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So if you owned a small area of land next to your house and someone repeatedly parked on it, what would you do?
AND you had to burn £50 every time
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I think I've said all I want to say on this subject but I have to respond to Oh above.
If you own a business that in this climate has full parking slots at all times throughout the business day and that everyone of them generates £50 net profit after all costs and taxes everytime a customer parks in one, and that is the only way you would burn £50 for EVERY time a non-customer takes one up then I commend you and would very much like to know what you sell or do as I want to take it up.
More likely the occasional rogue parker costs you nothing but annoyance as you dream of the business you think your losing out on.
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OK, but even £5 a time is not acceptable, but it could be £50 lost. Perhaps you would accept that, I don't see why I should. In this climate I too need to make as much as possible as my costs are increasing faster than my profits.
The rogue parkers appear at the busiest times of the day, that being the times when parking elsewhere is difficult.
The parking space (only three spaces) is a very valuable asset for the business which I don't see why non customers should take advantage of.
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Just out of curiousity what business do you have? ohso.
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From your posts, Niallster, it sounds as if you've been done by one of these "rogues"... You have my sympathy if you have, but just getting rid of them is NOT the answer...
You seem in that last post to condone someone parking on someone elses land even though the landowner has made that land into a car park for their business... You might find that acceptable behaviour, but I think you'll find that most of us don't... Most of us abide by the parking rules and if we can't find a space go a little further out and walk... That is acceptable behaviour... What you are condoning is a free-for-all!
What should happen (as mentioned elsewhere) is leglislation which gives clear rules about signage, and also gives clear guidlines on what is an acceptable fine or release fee for a clamp... That way the land owner would have some way of reclaiming lost revenue (or getting their space back if a private carpark) and the majority or us who are law abiding in the first place wouldn't be affected, but at least we would know what the consequenses would be if we did park inconsiderately...
Edited by b308 on 18/08/2010 at 15:09
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I agree up to a point with you b308 but it needs proper signposting because a lot of these fines are taken on bits of land that look like bombsites.The fines are thuggish and handed out by thugs.The consequenses are far to high for a traffic offence.If i see these signs i dont bother going to these establishments.Whats the point worry about a clamp or fine go somewhere else.
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a lot of these fines are taken on bits of land that look like bombsites.
Back to the basic problem
Why assume you can park in a location just because it looks like a bomb-site. It is still going to be owned by somebody somewhere.
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I agree up to a point with you b308 but it needs proper signposting
Think you'll find I said that!
"clear rules about signage"
Edited by b308 on 18/08/2010 at 15:54
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I can read what you are saying b308 anybody can make a mistake regarding parking,i wouldn't park on these bits of land with hidden signs regarding clamping,i still say these fines are total out of proportian for a traffic offence and this law was needed Ok give out a fine 30 pounds is enough for this offence and persistent offenders outside a bussiness let the police take care of this.Back to basic and a bit of common sense .We seem to getting more and more intolerant with each other as people.And i dont park anywhere where there is private land unless permission from the owner.But the people who do in my opinion don't deserve these treatment of being taken to cash machines to pay these fines by not very nice individuals.
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Dutchie,
Been out on business.
Curtains, blinds, soft furnishings etc, I could miss just a browser, a few bobs worth of curtain hooks or a full house job worth loads. Used to do very well when the housing market was busy, not so good now although many people here are refurbishing their houses a room at a time rather than move.
Enough of my stuff now,
I have never parked anywhere I shouldn't nor even overstayed in a car park by minutes in 45 years of driving, not that it mattered pre 1980ish. It always amuses me when people say they have only been in the space for two minutes when I have seen them from my office arrive 20 or more minutes previously.
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I seen to be being dragged in to an arguement I haven't made so I will make this my last post on this subject.
No b308 I am not suggestinag that its OK to park on other peoples land just that the landowners have massively overreacted to the issue and must now pay the price.
Also for the recortd I have never been clamped.
As for all this talk about legally designated sugn sizes and fine amounts surely the government of today has a few more important things to do than spend ages regulating a bad situation enterly created by the landowners and no a voluntary code woudl not work as they can not be trusted to behave well.
Short term parking at Heathrow Airport is £4,30 AN HOUR and yet the landowners employed thugs to charge £100 upwards for the merest transgression.
Sorry no sympathy for the landowners from me. Let them reap what they sowed.
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HJ. I expect little people like me have had to muddle on as before, no real support from any quarter.
Should the old lady from hell reappear I will not be expecting any kind words from Niallster then :-). She looked such a genteel old lady, smartly dressed, shiny Jazz..... took me by surprise. This was some time ago and I've not seen her since. As I am now semi-retired I may be spared a repeat performance.
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I can read what you are saying b308 anybody can make a mistake regarding parking
Really? If you aren't sure then don't park there... as said before its pure lazyness in most cases... I also don't agree with the methods some clampers use... but...
I don't think Landowners have over-reacted, I feel that in this case its the Gov's fault for not putting proper guidelines in place in the first place... That let the cowboys in and now we have the backlash... I still say that proper legislation is whats needed, not a ban on fines/clamping... That also, as I said before, means proper regulations on signage (your main objection?)... If there are clear signs then there's no excuse...
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My main objection is that the fines are far to high and inapropiate for this offence?Clamping anybodys car should be a last resort not a first.I think landowners have over-reacted and even if you had proper legislation a fine of £250?Come on somebody is taking the micky its a money making rackett enforced by cowboys putting fear into people .We keep going round in circles lets agree to disagree.
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QUOTE:.....""There seems to be an attitude of "unless it's physically blocked off, I have a right to stick my car there". In that case, check your driveway and your gardens, because you never know what you might find when you come home one day "" .........
Uh? I've never had a contract with a wheel clamper so they wouldn't be much help anyway if I did have a stray parked car on my land. Most people seem to get by without taking out a contract with an a wheel clamper. And often those that do are almost as upset by their behaviour as the people whose cars are clamped. Things like ending up with a clamped old car stuck on their land because the owner is prepared to tough it out or even worse, having a friend or acquaintance or valued customer clamped.
I still believe also that a case could be made that clamping a car, unless done with the authority of the police or highway authority, constitutes unauthorised tampering with a motor vehicle, which is an offence. Presumably the law has been tested on this matter on more than one occasion, but it would only take a different lawyer and judge / magistrate to put the cowboy clampers on the wrong side of the law. Anyway, soon they will be on the wrong side of the law anyway.
Edited by Sofa Spud on 19/08/2010 at 00:03
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My main objection is that the fines are far to high and inapropiate for this offence?
We keep going round in circles lets agree to disagree.
I don't think we are disagreeing... I agree that the current system does not work for exactly the reasons you give... Cowboys and their charges... all I said was that had the Gov put proper leglislation in the first place this would never have happenned, which included "reasonably" priced fines and clear visible signage... And that, I feel, is what they should do now, not just get rid of the whole thing and leave a free-for-all...
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Re whether or not wheel clamping constitutes 'unauthorised tampering with a motor vehicle........
Suppose I had a problem with people parking on a piece of land I own. Supposing I put up a notice warning that cars parked without permission will have their tyres let down. If I let down the tyres of cars parked without permission, or employ a tyre deflation contractor to do so on my behalf, this would clearly be outside the law.
Yet if I let down a car's tyres, all that needs to be done is for them to be re-inflated, which is a nuisnance to the owner. Wheel clamping has a greater effect on the owner of a car than deflating the tyres, since it completely immobilises the car until the owner pays up.
So I cannot see how wheel clamping is not unauthorised tampering, while tyre deflation would be.
QUOTE:...""not just get rid of the whole thing and leave a free-for-all...""
Why not make it an offence to park on land without the owner's permission - acted on only after a complaint by the landowner and with police discretionary powers whether to issue an on-the-spot fine or a caution?
Edited by Sofa Spud on 19/08/2010 at 14:20
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QUOTE:...""not just get rid of the whole thing and leave a free-for-all...""
Why not make it an offence to park on land without the owner's permission - acted on only after a complaint by the landowner and with police discretionary powers whether to issue an on-the-spot fine or a caution?
I suspect it is an offence, otherwise how have they been able to do what they have been doing? But I have concerns about using the Police in this... Surely the Police are spread thinly enough as it is without having to get involved in something, where, with the proper regulation, could be dealt with outside of them... Perhaps allow the Council Parking Enforcers to do it? I'd rather not have the Police having to attend every dispute between a Landowner and Carowner... Just seems like a massive waste of their time.
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I'd rather not have the Police having to attend every dispute between a Landowner and Carowner... Just seems like a massive waste of their time.
In my case, I have never considered calling the police for that reason. I have always tried to explain the situation to the driver which works most of the time with a few exceptions unfortunately. Often I have been too busy or lazy to bother with them anyway. As stated before, clamping or blocking a car in is really counterproductive here, unless a re-offender really catches me on a bad day. Then I wish I had a really effective way of countering the problem.
I do wonder though, how nice and fluffy many of those who do this or are so against clamping would be if it happened to them on a fairly regular basis.
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Still fails to address the basic underlying problem - some motorists seem to think they have a right to park on any piece of land which isn't already occupied by something/someone else. If people didn't assume that any empty space was a potential parking lot, the problems wouldn't arise. There seems to be an attitude of "unless it's physically blocked off, I have a right to stick my car there". In that case, check your driveway and your gardens, because you never know what you might find when you come home one day
Fair Point. As long ago as 1993 the Government recognised that banning clamping would likely lead to worse 'solutions' to vehicular trespass. (Wheel clamping on private land; Home Office consultation paper 1993).
http://spendingchallenge.hm-treasury.gov.uk/how-can-we-rethink-public-services-to-deliver-more-for-less/.....-and-now-for-something-completely-different-.....
You might be interested in the looking (and commenting) on this. Apparently Lynne Featherstone isn't! An ethical, and (for the country), profitable alternative to clamping. Feel free to pass it on to anyone, including cash strapped Councils if you think they might be interested, but please let me know where you send it.
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