I seem to recall a French driver pushing his car home at Brands in the 70s. [Which is old for an F1 driver.] Might have been Jaques Laffite?
Mansell tried pushing in Canada after he switched off the engine on the last lap. Can't remember the exact year, but it was the only race that Jean Alesi won.
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I think I remember Jack Brabham pushing his car over the line to win the championship in 1961 (ish)
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Smiling Jack... I remember him stuffing his car on a slow corner during the last lap at Monaco when he was in the lead...
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Nice piece on Mike Hawthorn (narrated by Murray Walker) on the One Show tonight - seemed like he was an all round good egg.
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"I think I remember Jack Brabham pushing his car over the line to win the championship in 1961 (ish)"
Maybe that should be 1959 - 1961 was Phil Hill (after von Trips was killed at Monza)
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Or even 1960!!
(I was only a young lad and now I seem to be a forgetful old git!)
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Mansell tried pushing in Canada after he switched off the engine on the last lap. Can't remember the exact year but it was the only race that Jean Alesi won.
You have managed to merge 3 separate events into 1 story!
1. Mansell pushed his Lotus over the finish line in Dallas in 1984 (and then dramatically fainted).
2. Mansell stopped on the final lap of the Canadian GP in 1991. It is believed that Mansell allowed the revs to drop too low whilst waving to the crowd and the engine stalled. Nelson Piquet inherited the win.
3. Alesi's only GP win was at the Canadian GP in 1995. Schumacher was leading by about 30 seconds when he suffered gearbox problems and had to pit for a new steering wheel which dropped him down to 5th.
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You have managed to merge 3 separate events into 1 story!
You see what old age does to a formerly pristine memory.... I do recall that the telemetry recorded that he inadvertently switched it off while waving to the crowd
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>> You have managed to merge 3 separate events into 1 story!
Thas kinda how history gets rewritten over the aeons of time.
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Thas kinda how history gets rewritten over the aeons of time.
It happens a lot quicker than that when Mandelson's around....
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Chinese whispers. A careless reporter, an idle or incompetent sub and a distracted typesetter can make a dog's dinner of anything. Assuming, that is, that no one is deliberately lying or falsifying something for one reason or another, as they so often are... Shakespeare's History Plays and certain tragedies being a case in point...
:o{
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Not a convincing championship win from Lewis Hamilton.Conspiracies abound about Glock.
Should have thrashed the opposition like Valentino Rossi did in Moto GP with 3 races still to go.
Being a Scot, I am also sorry that David Coulthard bowed out on such a bum note.
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Next year, maybe KERS will allow a certain alleged banana to flip itself from the back of the class - into contention at the front? A good time to apply an inspiring paint job too...
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Not a convincing championship win from Lewis Hamilton.>>
Agreed, Massa took more wins and also lost more points to matters out of his control, engine failures etc. He could have sewn it up with a couple of races ago without the engine failure while leading in Hungary with a lap to go and the Singapore pit debacle which was not of his personal making.
>>Conspiracies abound about Glock.>>
I am not sure, yes his last lap was 20 secs slower that the previous and the rain was not getting worse though who would make the call? Why would Toyota want a Ham / Macca win? Perhaps Bernie E?
Should have thrashed the opposition like Valentino Rossi did in Moto GP with 3 races still to go.>>
There is no one in F1 currently in Rossi's league, not since M Schu retired anyway.
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Hamilton won it fair and square, IMO. Given the mill McLaren have been through at the hands of the stewards this year, I just can't see they'd risk benefitting by improper conduct. The repercussions if they were caught doing so would be unimaginable, particularly if it "threw" the championship.
Cheers
DP
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Agreed, Massa took more wins and also lost more points to matters out of his control, engine failures etc. He could have sewn it up with a couple of races ago
Well, by that same logic, so could LH last year. Where does that get us? Even the most tifosed Tifosi must, sooner or later, learn to accept it I'm afraid. Massa, even for all his advantages & gifted points this year came up short - he's just not the calibre of racer LH is.
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This conspiracy rubbish is a joke, surely? With five laps to go Glock was two places behind Hamilton and not even on the radar, he stayed out on the dry tyres because the pit lane was crowded and he had nothing to loose anyway. It proved to be a good tactical decision because he had gained a place by the finish.
So what do people reckon happened during the last two laps after Vettel pased Hamilton? Perhaps Bernie and Ron went rushing to the Toyota pit with a suitcase full of cash and asked them to let Lewis pass, they agreed and then got on the radio to Glock telling him to slow down, his response being "Sure boss, anything you say, braking now".
All it lacks is involvement from Elvis and the Russian linesman from '66, pure popycock from people whose main sporting interest is the Eurovision song contest.
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Im a big Ferrari fan, but there is no conspiracy re Toyota. Glock gambled on the dries which enabled him to leapfrog LH. The gamble almost paid off but not quite :(.
You don't hear any complaints from anyone at Ferrari.
Also, to say FM isnt in the same league as LH is wrong IMHO. He had a good year and what Cheddar says is right, he was certainly denied 10 points in Hungary, and was heading for another 10 in Singapore, though the problem there was earlier. That is F1 though.
Those who say he can't handle the wet are barking up the wrong tree aswell, the Ferrari at Silverstone was a pig, and couldnt get temperature into the tyres. He did ok in Brasil in changeable wet/dry conditions.
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I cannot for the life of me work out how anyone can see a conspiracy in Hamilton getting past Glock
Firstly, it is a very well known fact that the dry tyres are dreadful when it's really wet, almost undriveable. It's been seen numerous times before... and come the end of that race some parts of the track were waterlogged.
Secondly, both Glock and Trulli of Toyota had very similar lap times on dry tyres, both way off the pace, so both of them would have been had to have been told to ease off..and.. do identical ish times, which would not have been easy. How would you get them to achieve that i.e. in a fairly short time frame work out what driving techniques to use to slow down enough AND post very similar times. Nigh on impossible in my book.
Thirdly, if Ferrari had the vaguest thought that there was something untoward going on, they wouldn't have their President congratulating the McLaren driver would they?
Lastly, in the past whenever there have been shenanigans, the drivers concerned have kept quiet (or tried to) or just given a sheepish shrug. Glock has been well quoted in the press about that last lap, stating not unreasonably in the conditions, that he had no idea Hamilton had passed him. I'm not at all convinced he would tell an out and out lie. If he'd been underhand he would keep quiet wouldn't he.
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Agreed Massa took more wins and also lost more points to matters out of his control engine failures etc. He could have sewn it up with a couple of races ago
>>
In reality Hamilton actually won more but the FIA "revised" one of them in Massa's favour.... but we'd better not go there again, had we, Cheddar! ;)
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I agree that the Glock conspiracy theories are a bit of a long shot, my Bernie comment was tongue in cheek!
I also agree that Hamilton won fair and square, after all he had more points at the of the day, whether he deserved to win more than Massa, hmmm!
In that regard you guys who think Hamilton was hard done by and had points robbed from him should really read Mark Hughes piece in this week's Autosport, Oct 30th issue, page 33.
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I also agree that Hamilton won fair and square after all he had more points at the of the day whether he deserved to win more than Massa hmmm!
There is only one criteria in deciding who deserves to win or not, and that's the final points tally. As the football pundits tell us, the league table don't lie!
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On a completely different note:
Did I see Hamilton having a problem fitting his steering wheel after getting out of his car at the end of the race? And did he walk away from it without replacing the wheel?
Isn't there some sort of penalty for this?
Did Ferrari spot it?
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I think I saw him managing to attach it, although whether it was properly fitted is not clear.
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He left it not properly fitted and someone, a marshal or equivalent, stopped him and pointed it out to him. So he took it off and put it on again, properly this time. It was all on camera.
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He did have problems but he stayed fiddling with it until it was back in place.
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Mind you there was a distraction nearby - a car had burst into flames!
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... Glock conspiracy theories are a bit of a long shot
"long shot" - how long is long? Infinity? Clutching at straws, methinks. This is from the Telegraph:
"When the late-race shower began, Glock wanted to come in for wet tyres ? which would have left him behind Hamilton and made the final lap immaterial ? but Toyota advised him to stay out on dries. The pit lane was congested and the management felt it was worth taking a punt.
For a couple of laps, it looked as though this might reap unexpected rewards. On the race's 69th lap, with two to go, Glock, promoted to fourth, lapped in 1m 18.688s ? more than a second quicker than leader Massa was able to manage on wets. The rain increased in intensity on lap 70, however, and Glock was reduced to a 1min 28.041sec lap, almost six seconds slower than the quickest driver on wets (Rubens Barrichello, at that stage).
By the final lap the rain bordered on torrential. Barrichello went around in 1-22.981, Massa ? having eased off ? in 1-27.721 and Hamilton in 1-26.126. The only remaining cars on dry tyres ? the Toyotas of Glock and Jarno Trulli ? completed the final 2.677 miles in 1-44.731 and 1-44.800 respectively.
.. guys who think Hamilton was hard done by and had points robbed from him
In 2007, Hamilton lost by a single point despite fighting against the Bermuda triangle of Kimi-Alonso-Massa aided by clumsy Mclaren strategy. [Title gifted to Kimi by Massa riding shotgun in a few races, plus gifting the win at Brazil].
In 2008, Hamilton won by a single point, despite fighting against the Bermuda quadrangle of FIA-Kimi-Alonso-Massa aided by clumsy Mclaren strategy and lack of shotgun rider support from Heiki.
Malaysian Grand Prix, Sepang, March 23:
Penalties saw Hamilton and team-mate Heikki Kovalainen relegated by five places on the grid
Bahrain Grand Prix, Manama, April 6:
A woeful weekend for Hamilton who crashed in practice, stalled on the grid from third
Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, June 8:
You couldn't make it up as Hamilton, who had started on pole and was easily quickest, but all that was nullified by the Safety Car.
French Grand Prix, Magny-Cours, June 22:
Starting 13th due to a 10-place penalty imposed for his error in Canada, Hamilton was hit with a drive-through penalty in the race for an "illegal" pass on Toro Rosso's Sebastian Vettel.
Hungarian Grand Prix, Budapest, August 3:
Kovalainen became F1's 100th winner after first Hamilton/McLaren advised by Bridgestone of tyre trouble and could only finish fifth.
European Grand Prix, Valencia, August 24:
Hamilton second, despite a painful neck spasm which almost forced him to pull out of the weekend.
Belgian Grand Prix, Spa-Francorchamps, September 7:
A rip-roaring race seemingly won by Hamilton but was demoted to third after stewards awarded him a controversial retrospective 25-second drive-through penalty, giving Massa an undeserved win.
Italian Grand Prix, Monza, September 14:
A poor tyre call in a wet qualifying cost Hamilton who started a career-low 15th on the grid.
Japanese Grand Prix, Fuji Speedway, October 12:
Massa shunted Hamilton sideways, led to Hamilton left at the back of the pack, and then further penalised with a drive-through, gave a good chase through the field but could only finish 12th.
www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4453365,00.ht...l
"Ferrari President Luca di Montezemolo has hailed Lewis Hamilton's Formula One triumph ..... "I would like to send my congratulations to Lewis, the youngest ever World Champion in the history of Formula One. He was a very powerful rival, and his win, close though it was, was well deserved. "
and this from Schumi:
"I congratulate Lewis Hamilton," Schumacher said. "What a finale. I have never seen anything like this, not as a racer and not as a spectator ."
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I think Lewis deserved the championship this year, he is clearly the best driver as he was last year.
I hope Lewis wins the BBC sports personality of the year, but I also hope that Filepe Massa wins the overseas personality of the year for his outstanding sportsmanship.
I think the Spanish, in general, are a bunch of racist bad sports. They ought to stick to bullfighting, then they would be sure a Spaniard would win.
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.. I also hope that Filepe Massa wins the overseas personality of the year for his outstanding sportsmanship.
Agreed; Massa says:
Meanwhile Massa, so narrowly defeated in the title race despite his victory at Interlagos, reinforced his image as one of the most sporting drivers in F1 when he said that he was looking forward to meeting Hamilton and offering his congratulations. Massa told Gazzetta dello Sport. "I want to meet Hamilton and his dad to tell them they deserved the title."
And Alonso has now joined in:
www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_4447449,00.ht...l
referring to the Englishman by his Christian name, Fernando Alonso has graciously declared Lewis Hamilton a deserved World Champion.
... in the wake of Hamilton's last-gasp triumph, Alonso refused to underplay Hamilton's achievement in breaking his own record to become F1's youngest-ever champion.
"In the end, Lewis won and scored more points and the driver who scores the most is the best driver," the Spaniard observed. "Lewis deserves his time and I congratulate him."
According to reports, Alonso even made a point of visiting the McLaren garage - possibly for the first time this year - to congratulate his rival. "Well done," the holder of the 2005 and 2006 titles is reported to have said as he put an arm around Hamilton.
Briatore: www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71995
Renault boss Flavio Briatore believes Lewis Hamilton was the right man to win the Formula One world championship this year - "He is great. Lewis went out there to win the title and he has won it. I believe the finale was amazing - but congratulations to Lewis."
QED.
So apart from Cheddar, it seems anyone who is anyone in F1 believes Hamilton was a worthy winner.
Edited by jbif on 04/11/2008 at 18:24
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jbif, I agree with you re the Glock accusations though your interpretation of some of the races .........
Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, June 8: You couldn't make it up as Hamilton, who had started on pole and was easily quickest, but all that was nullified by the Safety Car.
......... he missed a red light and drove into the back of Raikonnen in the pitlane !!!!
>>So apart from Cheddar it seems anyone who is anyone in F1 believes Hamilton wasa worthy winner. >>
Yes Hamilton is a worthy winner however Massa deserved it more though is more than magnanimous in defeat, to paraphrase Mark Hughes piece in Autosport (note: Mark Hughes points not mine) on taking the luck out of the equation:
Monaco: Hamilton crashed, bent a wheel, lucky to get back to the pits then just happened to be on the right strategy when Alonso and Coulthard cause the safety car to deploy. So taking the luck out of it Hamilton would not have scored and Massa would have got 8 points rather than 6.
Ham ? 10 / Mas + 2.
Canada: Hamilton missed a red light and drove into the back of Raikonnen in the pitlane, there was no bad luck involved in his non-finish. Massa however was denied 2nd place due to a fuel rig problem and finished 5th.
Ham 0 / Mas + 4.
Hungary: Massa?s engine failed after he had driven away from Hamilton. Hamiton inherited the win.
Ham ? 2 / Mas +10.
Belgium: Massa inherited the win after Hamilton?s questionable penalty which demoted him to third.
Ham + 4 / Mas -2.
Singapore: Massa was driving away from Hamilton and Raikonnen was catching Hamilton when Piquet crashed triggering the safety car under which the Ferrari pit crew error occurred. It is reasonable to predict that Hamilton would have finished third behind the two Ferraris if it was not for this. As it happened he finished third behind Alonso and Rosberg who both benefited from the safety car.
Ham 0 / Mas + 10.
Japan: Hamilton was lucky to get away with his first corner error though was penalised, as was Massa for his move on Hamilton on lap two, after their respective penalties Hamilton was right behind Massa on the track though Massa pulled away, Massa was then lucky that the stewards decided to penalise Bourdais moving him up to 7th from 8th.
Ham 0 / Mas -1.
A 31 point swing to Massa which would have given him a 24 point lead ahead of the Brazillian GP making its result academic.
As I say Mark Hughes points not mine. You really should read his piece in Autosport 30th Oct page 33.
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I felt desperately sorry for Massa who has put in a great performance this year but Hamilton won the championship more than fairly, having been on the receiving end of some very iffy penalties. I would have been equally happy for either to be champion.
The Mark Hughes re-scoring approach is frankly idiotic, a good gimmick for an article but far too many ifs and buts and unquantifiable factors ignored. Just as an example - the Ferrari drivers have had the benefit of an engine renowned for its grunt - which blew up and cost Massa a win. Two sides of the same coin? Another one - did Ferrari with its traffic light system take a high risk approach to minimising time in the pits which speeded up some stops but also resulted in mistakes? And will you credit Hamilton with some points to compensate for McLaren's probably inferior strategies and tactical in-race decisions? Et cetera, et cetera.
The fact is that both drivers performed amazingly well - Hamilton utterly eclipsing his team mate and Massa beating the 2007 WC in the same car - but the results are always a team effort (subject to FIA monkeying of course). Nobody can win the WC without a top tier car and but they still have to get the job done, and Hamilton did just that in his own way.
Final thought - the best driver on the grid is probably neither of them, so is Mark Hughes going to correct for all other factors and tell us who the real champion is?
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That's obvious, it's Raikennon. He really went off the boil in the last few races, once he realised that he had little chance on his own of being champion again, and also knowing that team orders would not permit him to even try properly. Watch out for Vettel though, once he gets some decent machinery.
Edited by smokie on 04/11/2008 at 21:15
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"Watch out for Vettel though, once he gets some decent machinery"
I agree but he is switching from the Torro Rosso to the Red Bull. and he was doing better in the Ferrari powered Torro Rosso than the Red Bull cars....he deserves a better car.
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Vettel is very quick and promising. With an unusually sunny personality for a racing driver too. I hope it stays like that.
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Some interesting views on whos the best... I especially like the one about Kimi being the best driver on the grid but going "off the boil"... so perhaps he's not, then?!
Cheddar, keep it up, you are giving me a great laugh in your increasingly desperate attempts to justify your intense dislike of Hammy... phrases like he is a "worthy winner" followed by the words "however Massa deserved it more" was priceless - you can't have it both ways m8!
Now, lets see, over 200 points in the first two seasons, 9 race wins and 2nd and winner of the WDC... ok so he's been lucky enough to have raced in the second best car on the grid for the last two seasons but to have done so much in such a short time is some achievemnet... there have been other drivers that could have done it but they didn't... Hammy, you deserve the praise... well done!
Edited by b308 on 05/11/2008 at 06:11
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phrases like he is a "worthy winner" followed by the words "however Massa deserved it more" was priceless - you can't have it both ways m8!
>>
308, he is a worthy champion though Massa deserved it more, there is nothing wrong with saying that, it is called opinion ...... m8!!
Hammy you deserve the praise...>>
Reckon if I was him I might relinquish the title if people started to call me "Hammy".
By the way, nothing against Hamilton, I have every respect for him, his is British and I would have backed him all of the way had he not been driving a McLaren though on balance season through, accounting for points lost that were no fault of his own Massa really deserved it.
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>>Reckon if I was him I might relinquish the title if people started to call me "Hammy".
'Cheesey', surely?
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and I would have backed him all of the way had he not been driving a McLaren though
There we go, in his own words, nothing to do with who deserved it, ched is bitter because of mcclaren.
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had he not been driving a McLaren
>>nothing to do with who deserved it
Quite, I rest my case, the best driver won... though not for a red team! ;)
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>>nothing to do with who deserved it, ched is bitter because of mcclaren>>
Rather twisted what I said RF, yes I didnt want McLaren to win, no I have nothing against Lewis H and yes it is great to see a Brit do well, some good positive news. Actually I would love it if Hamilton and Raikonnen swapped, Massa and Hamilton at Ferrari !
Though aside from the nationalities, teams, cars etc across the course of the season Massa made fewer mistakes and lost more points to bad luck.
Now as to who is the best of the current drivers:
Alonso, dont like him really particularly after his involvment in spygate and his deal to negate himself of any responsibility though he is a great all round driver, gets the best out of the car.
Massa, Schu's most competitive team mate, Raikonnen was seen as Schu's heir though Massa was a quick as him last year and quicker this, rather unfairly not thought of as good in the wet though brillliant at Sao Paulo in very tricky conditions on Sunday.
Raikonnen, blistering if all is working for him though needs the car to work for him, cannot make the best of a car as Alonso, and as we have seen Massa, can.
Hamilton, great in the wet and very quick on his day though still too inconsistent and error strewn to be called the very best.
Reckon Schu would still have the measure of any of them in the same car.
Vettel is the most likely challenger to the above though it is true to say that of the younger drivers Vettel and Kubica and possibly Rosberg and Glock could step into a McLaren or Ferrari and realistically have the kind of success that Hamilton has had, as could Button and Bourdais for that matter. Button has the ability though perhaps not the motivation it seems these days, perhaps quite happy to take a few of Honda's millions each year.
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Reckon Schu would still have the measure of any of them in the same car.
I'd agree with you there, C, the youngsters still have a lot to learn... but from what I've seen of him, if Hamilton can iron out his unenforced errors I suspect things could get boring again, he does have that edge in car control but still lets his "feelings" take over from time to time... if he ever manages to mould himself into a Prost clone we will have a problem!
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What have you got against McLaren, cheddar? I don't think you have said.
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Mainly spygate Lud, little before that, probably would have been cheering along a Hamilton / McLaren combo without that debacle.
Edited by cheddar on 05/11/2008 at 17:22
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Hmmm... fairly traditional behaviour I thought. And quite an involved story too. Looked slightly as if the policing had been ratcheted up quietly a couple of notches and McLaren got embarrassingly caught out.
Hamilton got caught out in an analogous way when he was deemed not to have given the place back to Raikkonen after straightlining a chicane. Seemed the goalposts had been moved slightly without McLaren being properly informed.
When are we going to see the back of the dreadful financial politician Max Mosley with his plan to remove the automotive component from F1 altogether by imposing a standard engine on all the teams? He used to be interested in motor racing. Not any more it seems.
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I'm not going to get dragged back into spygate or Spagate, Lud though I agree with your sentiments regarding standard engines and also agree that Mosley is tainted although, on balance, he had done a lot of good.
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on balance he had done a lot of good.
I suppose so, by helping wicked old Bernie juggle F1 into something with an economy the size of a small but rich country's... Pays a lot of wages, and damn good ones too.
As a motor sport enthusiast though I can't help feeling a bit nostalgic for the days when F1 was a specialised interest without today's mass market of football-style fans. The drivers didn't have to spend time and energy pouting in front of cameras the way poor Hamilton does to justify the eye-watering size of his future pay cheques. It all seems so garish, vulgar and irrelevant somehow although you can't blame the pilots for taking the money and hiring agents to maximise its flow.
I freely admit to being a bit snobbish and old-fashioned in some ways.
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Max Mosley with his plan to remove the automotive component from F1 altogether by imposing a standard engine on all the teams?
;-) With that proposal, I think Mosley is making a stick to beat his own back with.
I don't see how any of the engine manufacturers Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Renault or Ferrari will want to continue.
Edited by jbif on 05/11/2008 at 18:24
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p.s. Could not add to above post as timed out, but note:
www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/oct/20/mosley-privacy
"In formula one circles, he has a rule that people are allowed three jokes and that's it, otherwise it goes on and on. "I mean, in the end, I did it, and it is funny. "
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