A colleague has a mid 90s Escort 1.6. He now only does about 4,000 a year (down from about 20,000 when he bought it), but he spends whatever it needs every year for a service and other bits and bobs to keep it going. Last year the bill was about £500 - cambelt, full brakes overhaul, service, MOT etc etc, this year it was less than £200.
He is happy to do this as he doesn't need a new car and any second hand car he buys will need the same work doing as his Escort gets anyway.
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>>at midnight on a sunday a broken cambelt is beyond my 'acceptable circumstances' remit.
The problem is that there are 100 different things that can go wrong at Midnight on Sunday on the way to hospital. Even running a brand new car. Which is why the £250 bill for OP's car is way OTT.
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Maybe but cambelt failure isnt the same as a flat tyre. Proper car care sure increases your chances.
If you run a brand new car and expect it to go wrong, you have low expectations in life although buying certain brands would give the impression such a thing is normal.
I drive proper japanese cars and I fully expect them to get where they are going aslong as I look after them. Daewoo, in my experience are pretty similar.
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I was under the impression that most vauxhall 8v engines of this era were non-interference? I may be worng and dont quote me on that
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Thanks for all the comments, it is much appreciated.
Thinking about this today, it occurred to me that I've already spent about £200 on this car in parts -- new brake pads, service items, three new tyres (the fourth was a Kumho and clearly nearly new so I just bought three identical tyres to match), and a couple of brake pipes to get it through its first MOT (the latest one it just passed -- always a good sign).
So spending this much again to address what seems to be the one common major fail point on this car seems to be worth doing. When you look at the knackers on ebay, they always seem to point to the same thing -- ten years old, 60-80K miles, cambelt snapped taking the engine out. The 2l models have an issue with the head gaskets from what I can make out (the 1.6 doesn't seem to be affected), and otherwise very little of any consequence seems to go wrong with them -- usually just little daft things like the aircon not blowing cold, driver's seat getting stuck in one position (a cable on the bottom comes loose, easily remedied) and the odd stuck electric window mechanism (annoying but not terminal).
TimOrridge, these engines are clones of the newer 16v Family II GM units (as fitted to the Vectra I believe). I do know of a couple of Vauxhall owners whose cambelts have gone, often taking the cars out with them due to uneconomical repairs.
So, as people have said, I am faced with the choice of spending £250 now, or running the risk that I'm going to have to find another £400 car (which will have left me in the same financial position anyway), which may have far more wrong with it than this one.
As for it only being a Daewoo, does this really matter at this age? If it goes and it stops, and nothing is falling off, that's about as much as you can expect really I'd have thought. And I take issue with the Which? comment about them being uncomfortable; the suspension is very compliant, and the seats are French-like in their cushiness. Yes it's noisy and crude, but not ear-splittingly so, just a gentle but occasionally annoying low-pitched drone from the engine.
So I think I will get it sorted. Thanks all for the input. I do know what you mean Mapmaker, my thoughts were along your lines initially but I think this thread has served to remind me just how good a car this one is given its value.
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And as has been said these things tend to fail at the most inopportune moments, and given we live out in the sticks it's tempting fate really!
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Good thinking Jase. I'm with those who advocated looking after the old thing to keep it going. You have a cheap but reliable car in which you have confidence, and for a sum that wouldn't cover a month's depreciation on something newer, you can keep it that way.
It's a question of value to you: the AA is a fine body of people, but they can only get you home if the worst happens; they can't patch the engine up with string and you still have to find another car. I had a comparable decision to make years ago when I went away to university. I had a tatty but serviceable old bicycle and could have paid to insure it. But the excess on the policy was more than the bike was worth, so I paid what I might have paid as a premium for the toughest bike lock I could find - also probably more than the bike was worth. The bike eventually fell apart many years later; I still have that lock.
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"So, as people have said, I am faced with the choice of spending £250 now, or running the risk that I'm going to have to find another £400 car"
You also have the benefit of being able to plan the spend on the new belt, rather than be faced with having to find emergency funds for a new car (inc RFL etc) at a bad time.
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I had a 98 S Nubira 1.6 estate and loved it. Only thing that went wrong was clonking front droplinks - they never lasted more than 5k before getting noisey but they were like £40 quid to change so it was never a big issue.
Other than that it was a solid if totally uninspiring car but comfy I found.
Gearbox is sloppy mind you, cant be rushed.
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Tell me about the gearbox stunorthants26 -- it's the one thing I really don't like about the car. Vague and notchy -- I didn't think that was possible! It always does what it's supposed to, though, and never needs more than the lightest of touches, but it does take its sweet time as you say. From what I can make out from having test-driven a couple of other Daewoos of similar vintage, it would seem that it's just the way they are.
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Daewoof this age are all like it - I had a Matiz which while it had a light change, it was also notchy until very warm. The Lanos and Leganza are exactly the same - its actually similar to Vauxhalls of similar vintage ive driven.
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>>Maybe but cambelt failure isnt the same as a flat tyre. Proper car care sure increases your chances.
I still think that misses the point. We have no idea whether this car has ever had a new cambelt. We can be fairly certain that it has not had, for instance, a new alternator or starter motor. Or windscreen motor. Failure of any of these three might leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere at midnight on a Sunday night. So are you going to change them too? Lambda sensor, ECU etc. etc.
Save the money and put it towards the next car when the gearbox goes.
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None of those are going to trash the engine though, MM, and none are standard service parts. Other than the ECU, none are especially expensive to put right either (just strip from a scrap car and carry on).
Gearbox is unlikely to fail -- good solid old ZF unit, just mated to a linkage with poor feel that's all. When was the last time you heard of a Vauxhall gearbox actually failing?
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While they ruin the outing, perhaps, and warrant a ride back on a recovery track, they'll be fixed for an hour's labour plus parts.
The cambelt is about the only service item that can kill the car dead, for ever.
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>>The cambelt is about the only service item that can kill the car dead, for ever.
I fully appreciate that. But you completely miss the point that it might NEVER snap. And in that event, you've spent more than the car is worth on something that didn't need doing - and might anyway already have been done.
If it is the Vectra engine, then the likelist thing is that the tensioners will become noisy at which point it is worth changing them. It's the grotty plastic tensioners that generally fail rather than the belt.
I always feel that the alternator should be a standard servicing part at 80k miles. If it's lasted that long, it won't last much longer. Just like the cambelt.
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The problem with listening out for odd noises MM is that this is a second car. I don't drive it most of the time -- SWMBO does.
Given that I haven't heard what a failing GM tensioner sounds like (I have generally run older Nissans, and have not had to take a spanner to any of the engines), I can't explain it to the person who will most likely hear something. Plus, while I am the paranoid type who worries about the tiniest vibration, you know what women are like.
Yes, it's the GF50s that give up the ghost on these engines.
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>>I am the paranoid type
In which case you should be running a new car still under manufacturer's warranty.
Why drive an undesireable worthless old banger if you're going to spend more on it than it is worth on something that doesn't actually need replacing? Pointless. The art of running a cheap car cheaply is *not* spending money on it - as you allude in your first post.
There are plenty of other things to be paranoid about on this engine; for a start, at this mileage, you should change the alternator for a new one. Focussing on the cambelt is really down to paranoia.
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The art of running a banger is not spending £20k on a car in the first place, thats the real saving, no skimping on service and peace of mind items.
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Your "piece of mind" is my "paranoia". Of the few things that have stopped me from getting home in a car, a cambelt is not one of them. Complete waste of money.
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>>Complete waste of money.
And tyres, brakes and fuel?? Dont need them
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In which case you should be running a new car still under manufacturer's warranty.
The only time I have ever been stranded in a car was a brand-new (well, OK, six month old) Astra. Hoying it down with rain, the wipers failed. In the dark. AA took three hours to reach me on the hard shoulder of the A1 in North Yorkshire.
So I know that any car can fail at any time, and it isn't always the obvious things that go wrong.
The art of running a cheap car cheaply is *not* spending money on it
But my main car is an X-plate Primera. I've spent a few quid on that (MAF sensor, exhaust, clutch, brake caliper, although it sails through MOTs) over the last couple of years. Why? Because it's got years ahead of it most likely and those items are probably a result of its relatively high mileage (220K). Difference being that this car is probably worth a grand or thereabouts rather than a few hundred quid.
The Daewoo, somewhat annoyingly, seems in better condition than the Nissan. Should I stop spending anything on the Primera as well?
As far as I'm concerned the decision on the Daewoo's cambelt is a marginal one -- if it was a £100 fix I'd get it done in short order. I have no problem in paying out for cars, I just don't want to be caught in a cycle of depreciation. That's just burning fivers.
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>>Should I stop spending anything on the Primera as well?
Yes. I think you'd be lucky to get £300-400 for that too - you do pick unfashionable cars (sensibly!). Here is a 97k mile 2000 W-reg on eBay that made £600. 330270999307
It's the whole problem; second hand cars are essentially worthless at 100k and 8 years old, which makes the car marginal given the prospect of a £230 bill.
As related, I had been debating for nearly 4 years whether to change my Vectra 'belt. The thick end of £200 wasn't worth it for preventative maintenance. Once it was obvious that it was about to go, the economic argument changed.
I'm afraid to admit that I have been hoping that the belt *would* snap so as to justify a new car rather than that old nail.
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Yes. I think you'd be lucky to get £300-400 for that too - you do pick unfashionable cars (sensibly!). Here is a 97k mile 2000 W-reg on eBay that made £600. 330270999307
You don't know the half of it. I've never owned a 'fashionable' car, whatever that is. A succession of Nissans, Cavaliers, Daewoos and Hyundais have adorned the front of my house. Couldn't give a stuff about the badge, and I take advantage of others that do. None of them have been unreliable.
However, the Primera is a funny one. Here in the North East, where it is a locally-built car, Nissans are quite sought after, and as a result they tend to fetch decent money. I've seen cars the same age as mine with 150K go for £1200 quite recently.
I'm afraid to admit that I have been hoping that the belt *would* snap so as to justify a new car rather than that old nail.
If I felt that way about a car I'd just sell it. As I say that Primera has tested my patience somewhat and I have thought about selling it a few times.
With Kia Magentises hitting the £2K mark at only 4 years old, I'm tempted, along with a couple of other models. As I say, badge does not bother me.
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>>If I felt that way about a car I'd just sell it.
I don't think I *can* sell it. It misfires a bit; has done for years. Nobody would buy it - it's worth about £300, and I've just spent £170 on it. I don't give a stuff about cars either, really. Although I did nearly buy an XJS the other week...
"None of them have been unreliable" but "that Primera has tested my patience somewhat"???
I've seen a loaded 100k 4-year old Primera estate for 2,500.
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It hasn't been unreliable, but it has had its fair share of wear-outs.
In all the areas that matter, its fine. Bodywork, engine, gears, electrics, interior all A1. I think what has been trying my patience is the fact that every time anything does need to be fixed it's a clart-on because they didn't make many 1.8s, so they end up ordering in the wrong parts and I end up having to pink fluffy dice around sharing a car for a couple of days. Winds me up.
Edited by Webmaster on 02/10/2008 at 01:29
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I suppose we have to think about what exactly unreliable is anyway. I note that a lot of people happily tolerate multi-£££ bills on their cars.
I'll pay up, but it annoys me at times.
Of the faults I've had on the Primera, the exhaust and clutch are just service items. With the MAF sensor, the car gave me the good grace to warn of its impending doom by flashing a light at me and running a bit flat, rather than going all lumpy and stalling every five minutes as normally happens, and the brake caliper was the only thing that could really be put down as a 'fault' as such, as opposed to a part wearing out.
Actually I lied about none of my cars being unreliable. The Cavalier I had (1.6 8v petrol, 180K miles) was a complete and utter nail. It always started, but a myriad of small £50 fixes plagued the year I had it.
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I'm with the get it changed brigade.
Tend to buy my cars newish and run them into the ground. The fact that the market assigns them little resale value after 6/7 years is academic; they're mine and I know their history. The cambelt is probably unique amongst service items in having the capacity to kill a car stone dead. Get it changed and £200 quid spread over three years is sod all. Leave it and you're playing roulette, albeit for fiarly low stakes.
Mappy clearly has a different take, but IIRC he lives in the middle of London. Tubes, 24hr buses and taxis that don't need booking by phone make being stranded by the car a bit easier to cope with than out here in the sticks!!
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The art of owning an old banger is to learn to do things yourself.
It's like having a cheap imitation ring - if the stone comes loose you don't take it into a Bond St jewellers to be reset, you use some araldite.
As to how much it is worth spending on a car, its value is irrelevant. The only questions are what do you want it to do for you, is there a reasonable prospect of it doing that for another year, is it worth paying £X in order to get Y amount of benefit.?
The car may be totally worthless, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a waste of money servicing it. How much do you think would be worth spending in order to get a year's motoring?
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