Car Vandalised-suspect known-[Read only] - SlowJo
Hullo everyone..
Thanks for any help/advise with this..

Just walked out to my car to realise that my car has a deep scratch running down the whole length of the drivers side, back license plate ripped off and a dent on the L back door , presumably caused by a kick to the back door..


I live in hospital accomodation and the cars are parked in the carpark and as such there is no CCTV in this area so no way of finding out who was the the offender..


However an obvious suspect is a person who stays in hospital accomodation with whom i have had a minor falling out in the last few weeks..


There were 6 other cars in the carpark and none of the others were damaged..

I am now in a quandary as to what to do??


Do I make a police complaint and mention this suspicion , even though there is no proof even though there appears to be a possible motive ie falling out (there are specific reasons! i declined to get involved in a relationship spat with his now expartner, too complicated however i can elaborate on this).

If so would it help to mention to the police to mention his name or would that not be the right thing to do!


Second problem is driving to the police station without a license plate on the back! Can the police then turn around and accuse me of using a car not fit to be driven on public roads, or would it be safe to drive legally without a license plate

Thirdly anything i can do to prevent a further possible attack on my car ?confronting the person in question or would that be a foolish move?!


Thanks for any advise and help on this!

Edited by Pugugly on 15/08/2008 at 08:32

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - ifithelps
Simple things first:

Make a note of the date and time, and a record of the damage, pic is ideal, or a description.

Report it to the police, get a crime number - all this will help if insurance becomes involved.

No harm in reporting your suspicions at the same time, provided you put it fairly.

As you say, you have no proof on that point.

The polis - if you can get to speak to one - might even ask if there's anyone you know of who might have done it.

Another reason to report the incident is there may have been other cars vandalised last night/in the past few nights in your area.

This would obviously put a different, and slightly happier, complexion on things.

Edited by ifithelps on 10/08/2008 at 11:39

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - ForumNeedsModerating
Reporting the incident to the Police is a must, in my view. This (of course) logs this incident in the simplest sense - both for possible actions or prosecutions (in the unlikely event of a culprit being charged) & for insurance purposes.

>>Second problem is driving to the police station without a license plate on the back!

I assume this happened last night - otherwise I'd assume you'd be getting another plate made-up - so, perhaps unreasonable to expect you to get it fixed on a Sunday - but ring your local station to ask.

>>Thirdly anything i can do to prevent a further possible attack on my car ?confronting the >>person in question or would that be a foolish move?!

The question I sense you're more concerned about though is: is this a one-off or precursor to more things happening. Well, you can't tell - thwarted relationship issues can be heat of the moment outbursts, subsequently regretted, or for some people, nagging self-reinforcing obsessions. What is is your 'suspect' like in this regard? Personally, I wouldn't confront the person you suspect - he either regrets his actions now or if not, will feed off your anxiety & discomfiture. If it's possible, make it known with your fellow residents - they're maybe even your firends or work colleagues (I used to work in a hospital - they're often like small villages really..) what happened & that you've reported it to the Police, insurance company etc & that the Police are 'investigating' (although I doubt they'll be able to devote much resource to this!) . This might be enough to deter (if your suspicions are well founded) any more vandalism & heighten others' awareness & vigilance.

>>If so would it help to mention to the police to mention his name or would
>>that not be the right thing to do!

Well, you could be wrong in the final analysis - the grounds for your suspicions are, after all, circumstantial. I would be tempted to say in a statement that I have suspicions, but wouldn't like to divulge this currently, but should any more facts or evidence come to light in the coming days/weeks that confirm your suspicions, you may want to add to your statement. You may want to indicate though (as you have here) that there is an ongoing issue with one resident that may be relevant.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - L'escargot
The culprit is clearly somewhat unstable and prone to violence, and I personally wouldn't contemplate confronting the suspect unless I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't end up getting battered.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Armitage Shanks {p}
I don't know how snails are eaten but I am confident that they are not usually battered!
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - ifithelps
Flash fried in a little garlic butter.

The mollusc need not be French, most species are edible.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Hamsafar
In my experience, the Police always tell the accused the name of the accuser at the start of questioning.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - ifithelps
They'd struggle not to in this case, if only by implication...

'Now Smith, did you vandalise Slowjo's car?'

'Don't like him much, do you?'
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - SlowJo
I guess here the difficulty is in not having any proof, however as you have mentioned it is clearly only circumstantial and without any conclusive proof,its not easy to suspect anyone , let alone accuse someone!

“What is is your 'suspect' like in this regard?”

Spot on the tendency to violence ,i guess there is a chance that he could become violent at the drop of a hat, so i guess confrontation and that too without any proof isnt wise.

Again once i have been to the police , would i have to inform the insurer, even though i do not intend to claim on insurance(as it would affect my no claims discount and for the amount of damage isnt worthwhile considering the effect on my no claims!)

I think i will avoid using the car as the police more often than not may want to focus on the fact that i have driven without a license plate..

Also leaving posters around the accomodation flats giving my mobile number asking if anyone had seen or heard anything?

If not anything else, it may atleast give more publicity possibly decreasing the chance of future vandalism..


Off to the police station then to make a complaint..

Edited by SlowJo on 10/08/2008 at 15:17

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - L'escargot
I don't know how snails are eaten but I am confident that they are not usually battered!

Flash fried in a little garlic butter.
The mollusc need not be French most species are edible.


:-)

Edited by L'escargot on 10/08/2008 at 15:01

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - oilrag
I suspect over optimism in what police can, or will, actually do about it.

Someone once broke into my Maestro, on a certain estate, took the handbrake off and rolled it into a hedge. No interest whatsoever other than giving out a crime number.

However... as a teenager, my bedroom overlooked next doors drive. Heard a smashing sound, looked out, yelled down and a couple of lads ran off leaving a smashed door mirror hanging down.

A team of police came straight out (about 2AM) with a finger print guy and about an hour later a report came back to the scene that suspects had been found a couple of miles away on a deserted road having cut across field. Yep, patrol cars had been out looking.

That was a smashed wing mirror in the night, around 1965....

I`m getting more and more sure that a tiny village in a remote area of France is the best place to live in retirement.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - gordonbennet
I`m getting more and more sure that a tiny village in a remote area of
France is the best place to live in retirement.


Make sure you can get internet access, as likely to have retired transporter driver and charming wife for neighbours in due course, and you can help them find their ideal spot, preferably up a long track only navigable by hilux pick up..;)

Haven't got any help for you SlowJo, other than to take on board what OR hints at and join the millions of other decent people looking forward to getting out before this country erupts.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Screwloose

Precisely why I'm, still, actively looking for a nice rural workshop in a remote part of the west of Scotland.....

If anyone knows of one...... [Outbuildings at Sunipol and Roshven Farms and the jetty at Salen have already been discounted.]
Things have changed-More Serious-4 Tyres - SlowJo
Went out , took some photos of the scratch and then got a BIG Shock !

All 4 tyres have 1 to 2 nails under them angled in such a way that when i reverse backwards ,would have punctured all 4 tyres!


Have called the police and are waiting for them to call back...

Dont know how long the wait is going to be though!

Here are the pictures taken..


i37.tinypic.com/f29255.jpg Back of car

i37.tinypic.com/2e0p6qt.jpg L back tyre


i36.tinypic.com/2n645f.jpg L front tyre


i36.tinypic.com/2zyizwm.jpg R front tyre with 2 nails..


i34.tinypic.com/31350e9.jpg R back tyre


Could this now be along the lines of malicious intent or something more serious since i could have lost control/sudden loss of air while travelling on a motorway or something similar which could have been more serious ??

Thoughts please.


Dont know how long the police are going to be??

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/08/2008 at 19:53

Things have changed-More Serious-4 Tyres - qxman {p}
Went out took some photos of the scratch and then got a BIG Shock !
All 4 tyres have 1 to 2 nails under them angled in such a way
that when i reverse backwards would have punctured all 4 tyres!


Wow, lucky you checked! Obviously this is targeted and not random vandalism. Don't think the police could get a fingerprint off a nail though. Maybe if you call the police in and they speak to the person you think may be responsible then it'll be enough to scare him/her off from doing it again!
Things have changed-More Serious-4 Tyres - Pugugly
Have you thought of setting up your own CCTV surveillance ?
Things have changed-More Serious-4 Tyres - Bill Payer
Thoughts please.

Check for pools of brake fluid under the car before driving off.

I think you're right with the nails - the tyres wouldn't just go "pop", they would deflate slowly and could easily result in a blow-out at speed, the consequences of which could of course be fatal for you, passengers and other road users.

I hope the Police treat this with the seriousness that it deserves.
Things have changed-More Serious-4 Tyres - OldGolfer

Regarding the missing rear number plate - has it been removed in one piece or were there broken remains on the ground nearby?

If it was removed intact, might there be a possibility that the suspect will use it on the rear of another car and clock up a number of malicious speeding offences so that you have another kind of problem to deal with?

You have my sympathy.

I once had a well cared for car scratched in a similar way. I did not have any suspects. Not nice!



Regards
Paul
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Alby Back
Do you want a ( very old and reasonably inept ) apprentice Screwloose !? If so you only have to say. Suspect you would end up with a car buff's commune if you did. Reminds me of that classic line. which includes......"How many l's in dollar ? " if you remember Local Hero ?

If you do manage it you will be living in possibly the most beautiful part of Britain if not the World. The only downsides are the ambient temperature, the average rainfall and of course the midges.

I for one would still be very envious. Good luck with your plan.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - qxman {p}
join the millions of other decent people looking forward to getting out
before this country erupts.


Erupts? For heaven's sake he OP is talking about a scratched car by a (probably) known perpetrator, its hardly Armageddon.
Before knocking the UK (yet again) you might want to check some statistics. France has a far higher incidence of random crime and vandalism than the UK. I have a friend who lives and works in Toulouse (Airbus engineer), he's had his car damaged many times and the last one was torched. In 2007 over 1500 cars were purposely burnt out in Toulouse, about 45,000 in France as a whole. More info here: www.newsweek.com/id/74373?tid=relatedcl Damage to cars in the UK pales into insignificance by comparison. Remember the big French riots in 2005 ? - now that was an 'eruption'!

Yes, if you live up a French back road in the middle of nowhere it'll be fairly safe, but the same applies in the UK.

To the OP: contacting the police will probably be a waste of time. With nothing to go on other than your suspicion, what can they do?

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - rtj70
Looking at the two rear tyres they look close to legal limit too - could be the light/angle but make sure you know their state before plod arrives, e.g. you're getting 'em replaced if need be. You're obviously not driving it so no offence committed.

I too would suggest checking other things have not been tampered with. Maybe not all nails would have punctured a tyre but there is clearly an attempt to make the vehicle unsafe. Therefore police ought to be interested now - a high speed blown tyre would have been serious.

EDIT: looking at the left rear tyre again, if all nails the same length and taking into account tyre tread depth - this nail has already penetrated the tyre a little. That's how it looks to be anyway.

Edited by rtj70 on 10/08/2008 at 18:46

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Westpig
SlowJo,

Depending on where you live, you may or may not get much joy from a police investigation. In some areas your crime will have been 'screened out' before you get back home, because there aren't enough people employed to investigate all the work that comes in, so the more minor stuff gets left out.... (and before anyone has a pop at me, i don't agree with it either, but that's the way it is)... in other words don't expect a number of people to turn up knocking on doors and making enquiries etc. If you're lucky a PC will be allocated the crime and he/she will actually do something.

one option, i tried about 15 years ago, when my then wife's car was vandalised twice and mine once in a 2 month period (and I suspected a young lad up the road), was to tell all and sundry e.g. the nearby newsagent, all my neighbours etc, that i'd had a sophisticated covert camera installled and i was almost hoping the oik came and did it again, because he'd be 'bang to rights'. Miraculously all the problems stopped immediately. I didn't of course have any camera at all. I'm sure you could ensure that sort of yarn could get back to your suspect somehow and you could tailor the yarn to sound credible, if neccessary by researching current camera technologies and/or the involvement of on site security/managememt or whatever, who have agreed to your request to insert this camera at your cost (keep it believable).





Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Pugugly
Why not get the Mods to edit out that personal relationship stuff (including this post of mine) and just stick to the vandalised car?

Agreed - thanks Oilrag. OP if you want the details re-instated e-mail me. I advice not.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Fullchat
Notwithstanding the tread depth of the tyres; its on a private car park so it does not matter, the potential cost of damage is getting close to £750 with a side respray and 4 new tyres. In my book it is starting to get serious bearing in mind the potential for tyre failure.
Westpig has given you the reality. Have you saved the nails? DNA is a possibility, but again its down to local policy and whether the crime is going to be investigated.
You are potentially a repeat victim which should move you up the scale slightly.
Now its easy to get fobbed off with "There are no witnesses or evidence so we cant do anything." Without knowing the circumstances of your falling out its difficult to make a judgment. However the Police may question anyone the wish in their investigation of crime; whether that proves fruitful or not is another matter. Again depending on the circumstances of the falling out there may be 'reasonable grounds to suspect' that person to have committed the offence for which they could be arrested. This gives the power to search premesis for items used in commission of the offence - like a bag of matching nails! Again an interview may prove fruitful and if not then without any other evidence it would be 'no further action'.
It will all be down to local policing policy, but the above may give you some ammunition if you think you are being fobbed off.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Lud
I seem to remember charges of attempted murder being brought for less dangerous acts than that nail thing. It would be good to get the fuzz into it, seems to me. They have ways, or used to have ways, of making people think twice about reoffending, even without bringing charges.

What utter carp some people are. This sort of thing - malicious damage which is really malicious - is very upsetting and makes some people's lives a misery.

Edited by Lud on 10/08/2008 at 23:13

Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - The_Flexible_Flaw
SlowJo - I can relate.

We have had a car vandalised outside the house, a concrete pond lining punctured and another attempt that resulted in half a fence post (broom handle sort of diameter) floating in the pond and eggs thrown at the conservatory from the neighbours on one side.

Oh the joys of having neighbours both side with teenage girls and their 'associates'.

It's funny how the cars either side have never been damaged.

It's difficult not to assume that Britain is indeed a bit of pit.

I am not fan of New Labour's project to turn Britain into a facsimile of the former Eastern Bloc with all their state snooping of our everyday lives, but wouldn't crime maps highlighting everything, like cars getting vandalised help parents realise that there is a little more to being a parent than managing to have sex without using contraception?

If these incidences were marked on crime map, perhaps any subsequent drop in property values may make parents get their kids under control?

Well, one can hope can't you.

The police?

I reported the vandalised car to the police (NS rear window on large estate) and they phoned back and wanted to know if they could take blood samples, there weren't any.

I also got a follow up 'customer service' call and a pamphlet about being a 'victim of crime'.

I also reported the 2nd attempt at the pond and the eggs on the conservatory just in case there were any more incidences.

I also had the police at 1AM when the neighbours being away one of the kids against orders had a little 'soiree'. A couple were having a domestic out the front, then when I checked later (after they'd been making enough noise in their house that it sounded like they were moving out) this lad was leaning over the bonnet of my car inebriated. I rapped on the window and told him in no uncertain terms to get of my car, to which he responded "come on then".

So I promptly picked up the phone, called the police and went after him. In running away from me he tore down the panel fence from the neighbours house.

The police arrived. And oddly he reappeared later, and there were 2 other of this girls 'mates'. I don't know if they'd picked him up, or it's just a coincidence that this lad reappeared as these 2 lads arrived. It was a good job the police were still there.

He was asked to leave. Despite being walked away from the scene by the police he was still shooting his mouth and they took him into custody.

Is Britain great?

Am I proud to be British?

Are many teens and young adults ignorant, inconsiderate and unsocialised?
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - DP
Back in 2001, we bought a six month old Fiesta Zetec-S which was vandalised one night. Two deep gouges down one side, the rear wiper arm bent, and one front fog light kicked in. The police wouldn't / couldn't do anything at all. We were in an outer London Borough at the time. This was after many repeated incidents in the street - at least it wasn't personal.

A few years later, we moved to leafy Hampshire, and some local wags decided to steal all the car aerials on the street one night. Next day, two youths were being dragged door to door by the local PC, and being made to both apologise, and return the aerials (which were recovered from a nearby hedge).

The eop's case is much more disturbing as (to me) it shows intent to endanger life. I'd be checking brake lines if the idiot was this determined.

Depends where you are as to what level of service you get from the police. If you're in a big city, car crime isn't even on the radar.


Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - movilogo
A colleague of mine (in Nottingham) had his car's roof dented by some chavs dancing there!

He didn't see them but a neighbor did see (though could not identify them). Police were useless. Lost his NCB to repair the car.


Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - oldlag
The POLICE ha Ha!
Police are only interested in 2 types of crime

One they can easily solve and boost their performance indicators
and
secondly, crime they cannot ignore as in like the media thrusts it under their noses and the police have to address it.

Otherwise they dont want to know, which looking at this thread is what we all know anyway.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - deepwith
Hmm, I think you live much closer to me than I thought, DP - unless this has happened in two areas of Hampshire. ;-)
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Blue {P}
Are many teens and young adults ignorant inconsiderate and unsocialised?


In hard number terms, yes. As a percentage of all the young people in the land, no. I speak as one.

Update after meeting Plod. - SlowJo
Apologies for the delay in writing back, had the PC come around for a statement from my side.

At the first sight of her, my thoughts were, could she really be old enough to be a PC(just about 19-20 at the most is what I thought),maybe its the shortage in the forces that police officers become trained quicker and therefore start working ?quicker than before.


Or is it a sign that Im becoming old??!


Anyway , PC X walked around the car, inspected all the nails and then pulled them out one by one , pronouncing the tyres legal to drive,as in her words, even though it appears that the nails have been pushed into the tyre ,as the tyre hasnt lost air,should be fine to drive..


"No point in even trying to take fingerprints of nails "-says PC X and gives me the nails.

I then elaborate on the reasons for my suspicion on one particular person stating that one of the reasons Im concerned is that as this appears to be targeted vandalism as opposed to a random act.

After the initial legal bit comes the important part for which i was ready for.. again these are not exact statements!

PC-Have you any person in mind
Me-I have reasonably strong reason to suspect P1 because of ............

PC-Have you any evidence apart from your circumstantial suspicion?

Me-No , but what i am doing is bringing my suspicion to your notice and it is upto the police to decide/investigate as needs be

PC -Are you prepared to stand up in court with your suspicions.

Me-Yes if need be.

PC X-Sorry there isnt enough proof to include a name in your statement

Me-Excuse me and why is that ,I do agree there isnt enough proof at this point in time but thats why I have given you a lead based on my suspicion,and its upto you to decide whether it is worthwhile investigating..


For some reason PC X didnt initially seem to be very keen to include a name in the statement..

Maybe Im wrong but that was my initial impression...

Any backroom members know the reason why??



Some other typical questions


PC X-Do you want to see this person arrested?

Me-Yes if you think there is enough evidence to do so,Its upto the police to decide.


At the end of the statement , she concludes

"There isnt anything we can do , no evidence to question anyone , what we can do is drop leaflets to your neighbours and thats it"

Me-Fine by be what you do , what i have done is brought this incident to your attention and then Ill leave that to the police to decide.



And off she went,I didnt expect anything to come out of this anyway and so nothing was a surprise!



Thoughts please !

Edited by SlowJo on 12/08/2008 at 00:35

Update after meeting Plod. - Jonathan {p}
interesting thread

my thoughts are that a statement is a written account of the situation from your view. Every time I've given a statement it has been written verbatim by the police to record what I said. It isn't the police's job to decide what does or does not go into that statement (they may try to assist you in keeping it relevant to the case) their job is to record the statement accurately. The decision to name name's is yours.

PS I've only ever been interviewed as a witness, never as an accused!
Update after meeting Plod. - NowWheels
Slowjo, was the woman who came round actually a police officer, or just a PCSO?
Update after meeting Plod. - SlowJo
NowWheels,It was a PC in a flashy plod car, kept pressing at her radio/walkie talkie thingy, during the meeting , not once were there any messages/calls though.

Maybe it was turned off during the meeting ?
Update after meeting Plod. - Fullchat
Did she have an earpiece in??????????????

Well I've given you my ten pence worth above and it appears that you have fired some ammunition.
She has taken a statement. In my neck of the woods if there are no witnesses or suspects then we don't take written statements for low level offences - there are a few other exceptions.

As pointed out above the statement should be your own words but there is a balance between what you say and what is required to be recorded.

Had this person you have fallen out with been dealt with - perhaps other evidence, then your statement would have included a brief history, including the name, of what had occurred between you as it is relevant.

If you have provided a named suspect due to an event/s that occurred between you and taking into account other factors such as location or likelyhood of anyone else committing the offences then there is a 'suspect'.

Did the statement include details of what had occurred between you and this other party?
If it didn't then someone is not doing their job properly. If it did how was it worded?

How to write a crime off - " There is no further evidence, no witnesses and no suspects. Recommend file 'undetected'."

Edited by Fullchat on 12/08/2008 at 01:45

Update after meeting Plod. - L'escargot
" .......... what we can do
is drop leaflets to your neighbours .........."


What would the leaflets say?
Update after meeting Plod. - ifithelps
At least someone came out, so you've had some sort of service.

It is up you what is included in your statement, it is your statement, not hers.

Seems to me the polis didn't want details of your suspicions in the statement because she then might have been obliged to investigate them.

Can't see there's much more you can do from here.

But if anything else happens - it probably won't, most people in these situations run out of steam pretty quickly - but if anything does, you will have to insist the whole sorry saga, names an' all, goes in your next statement.

Update after meeting Plod. - ForumNeedsModerating
Re the Police attendance & your statement. It's not surprising there isn't alot the Police can do - but you've got it logged. But perhaps as well as telling us, why not let your co-residents & immediate circle know how the Police regard this as quite serious (perhaps embroider the facts a little - local anti-vandalism initiative, zero-tolerance policy etc.) & suggest the Police now regard this area (around the residence car-park) as a 'hotspot' & will patrol more frequently. Drop hints that CCTV installations (either public or private) in the local area were routinely collated & cross referenced with crime reports - and that how surprised you were that there CCTV in the area you weren't previously aware of. Say how assiduously they collected the nails & took them away - just in case a link arose later or new evidence came to light etc.

Since it must be paramount to you now that there's no repeat of this, any pressure or uncertainty you can build in the mind of your suspect must be to the good. Even if he's not the culprit, the worst you've done is give some piece of mind to your co-residents.

Update after meeting Plod. - The_Flexible_Flaw
Probably a bumpsteer here:

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/facethefacts/

It seems some employers are abusing the CRB checks to sack employees for long past 'spent' convictions. Do this person really want to risk a criminal record?

When employers are misusing the system like that perhaps some can see how the ID Card scheme could be misused too?

A couple of years ago in one of the 'night time economy' areas of town where the pubs and restaurants are some middle aged chap was thumped to the ground and given a good kicking after tackling some young 'man' dancing on the roof of his new Mazda 3. It was 8pm on a week night. Also in that area a Porsche Boxster had the roof slashed, and the handbrake released and rolled down a hill into a wall.
Update after meeting Plod. - Pugugly
"t is up you what is included in your statement, it is your statement, not hers.

Seems to me the polis didn't want details of your suspicions in the statement because she then might have been obliged to investigate them."



No - you're wrong. There are strict Rules of Evidence that must be adhered to in statement taking, this is why they're called Statements of Evidence not Statements of Ill-Informed Guesswork, Idle Speculation and Potentially Vindictive Carp for one thing its a shorter title.

Edited by Pugugly on 12/08/2008 at 23:26

Update after meeting Plod. - ForumNeedsModerating
Statements of Evidence not Statements of Ill-Informed Guesswork etc.


But surely if you have suspicions about a crime there is some mechanism for informing those investigating?

After all, isn't much Police work based around gathering any relevant information - no matter how marginal or inconsequential it seems? How do Police manage 'tip-offs', infromation gleaned from appeals (a la Crimewatch) or from informers? Aren't they the same as the OPs suspicions?

I'm sure the Police detection rate would plummet if only weapons-grade information were acted upon or taken seriously.
Update after meeting Plod. - ifithelps
...No - you're wrong. There are strict Rules of Evidence that....

PU,

'No, you're wrong' - that's not evidence, it's a statement. :)
Update after meeting Plod. - Pugugly
Whatever you say.
Update after meeting Plod. - Fullchat
An example:

"Mrs Brown told me that she saw Billy Miggins throw a stone through my window."

Thats what is called 'hearsay' and should not be included in the statement recorded by the Officer.

Generally 'hearsay' is inadmissible at court.

Officer needs to record another statement from Mrs Brown.

So the Officer will record a witness statement in the words of the witness but will tailor it to adhere to the rules of evidence. Likewise the witness will ramble on in an unstructured fashion giving their life history. Likewise the Officer will wean out irrelevant information and put in some structure.
Update after meeting Plod. - Pugugly
That's what I wanted to say but lost the will to live. Be careful what you say about Master Miggins - his mum's a client ! :-)
Update after meeting Plod. - ForumNeedsModerating
An example:

"Mrs Brown told me that she saw Billy Miggins throw a stone through my window."

Thats what is called 'hearsay' and should not be included in the statement recorded by the Officer.

Generally 'hearsay' is inadmissible at court.


But, using your example, wouldn't the officer treat or use the statement "Mrs Brown told me...etc" , as information & perhaps work out it might be good idea (in the interests of clearing up the incident) to speak to Mrs Brown? Or would he/she completely ignore it? That, I think, is the point being made.

I find it hard to believe that if the OP did mention the name of her suspect & the investigating officer interviewed the named suspect, that the officer wouldn't then say in court "The complainant said in her statement she believed MrX (the suspect) was the culprit because of reason A,B,C. When I asked MrX he admitted the offence" (assuming he did of course).

Perhaps the legal eagles here are confusing 'information given to police' with 'statements admissable in court' , with due respect.
Update after meeting Plod. - Lud
Isn't the problem here the elimination of the beat bobby owing to changes in society brought about among other things (let us not forget) by the generalisation of the privately owned automobile?

Coppers on foot used to patrol many areas, say good morning to people, chuck babies under the chin, give stroppy yobboes a clip round the ear, and if any good get to know the ins and outs of the area, who was who and so on. Not much of that now. Not plod's fault either.
Update after meeting Plod. - Westpig
there are many reasons why you wouldn't write too much in a statement if it wasn't known to be true. One example where it could go wrong is if the victim states "... and i think Bill Bloggs did it"... when in reality the culprit is Syd Smith. If Syd Smith were to be caught, his defence solicitor would have a field day when all the evidence is disclosed to him, as is the system.... and would be strongly suggesting the wrong man was arrested/charged/before the court, as after all "even the victim knows it was Bill Bloggs".

keep it factual, keep it relevant

statements nowadays do have a bit more leeway in them than they used to..and the thinking is that areas like hearsay could be included, it being the lawyers responsibility to ensure inappropriate evidence isn't disclosed in court..however good statement takers won't clutter a statement up with a load of stuff that isn't necessary or relevant.

let's face it a victims 'gut feeling' about who has done something is never going to be admissible in a court, is it.
Update after meeting Plod. - Fullchat
There may be some confusion here! There are statements and Statements. A statement is where someone provides oral information. A Statement is a written account

A Criminal Justice Act Statement generally takes two forms. A Witness Statement or a Complainant Statement. Either way the purpose of the statement is that it will be submitted with the intention that the information in it be used in court proceedings which are governed by many rules for example 'Hearsay Evidence'. So if 'Hearsay was included a line would be put through it and it is therefore of no evidential value. The complainant Mrs Smith would not be able to stand in the box and say - "Mrs Brown told me that she saw Billy Miggins throw a stone through my window." (unless young Miggins was present when the statement was made). Therefore there is little point in putting that comment in the original Statement. Mrs Brown would have to stand in the box and recount what she saw Billy Miggins doing.

Now where the confusion arises is that when someone reports a crime then a Crime Report is completed. That Crime Report contains areas of free text where absolutely anything can be written. That is the working copy. Any information can be recorded on the Crime Report. So if Mrs Smith tells says that Mrs Brown has told her that she has seen young Miggins up to no good then that can be recorded because the next action will be to see Mrs Brown at some point.

When the job is all done and dusted the CJ Act Statements are attached to a shed load of other paperwork and submitted to the CPS (in the case of a prosecution) and ultimately to the Courts. The working Crime Report is filed as 'Detected' or 'Undetected' for stats purposes. Legal representation can see the Crime Report under Disclosure rules and may find loopholes to explore but generally their content is not part of legal proceedings.

Hope that clarifies matters. I've tried to keep it simple. Blimey and I'm on leave as well!

Update after meeting Plod. - ForumNeedsModerating
Thanks FC - I've learnt something today. From a 'civvy's' point of view we just talk to the Police - the distinctions you draw give me a better understanding - between say, 'Talk' & 'talk'.


Update after meeting Plod. - Fullchat
You're welcome. We sometimes come in for some stick. There are no secrets just a lack of understanding sometimes of the systems.
And then there is 'Stop and Talk' and thats another form. I've had enough my head hurts.
Update after meeting Plod. - Jonathan {p}
And then there is 'Stop and Talk' and thats another form. >>


Is there a form for "walkie talkie" then? ;-)
Update after meeting Plod. - movilogo
What can you expect from police in this country?

Former police inspector arrested after confronting gang who threatened to kill him

tinyurl.com/6hvs5f
Update after meeting Plod. - Westpig
What can you expect from police in this country?
Former police inspector arrested after confronting gang who threatened to kill him

it's called 'reaping what you sow'. If you tie people down so much and measure them to death, they're too damned worried not to act... and are constantly looking over their shoulders for the figures

the whole system is like it

in the old days a 'yoof' making a spurious allegation would have been told to clear off, nowadays 'everyone has rights' and if an officer doesn't act on an allegation, however unlikely it would appear to be, they'll be investigated for a neglect of duty... and believe me everyone at the 'lower end of the market' knows how to make a formal complaint, they come in daily by the lorry load

please don't think though that the people operating in this system like it, they just do as they're told
Update after meeting Plod. - The_Flexible_Flaw
What are we saying here? It's one more reason to dislike Labour and their unhealthy fixation with political correctness?

Neerdowell, ferral scum have rights, but law abiding, taxpaying citizens have to accept bin men with more powers than PCSOs rummaging through their bins looking for excuse to fine them?

How many more reasons do we need to vote Brown and his muppet buddies out?
Update after meeting Plod. - Lud
vote Brown and his muppet buddies out?


We probably will, because very few regimes can last ten years plus and still enjoy the electorate's fickle and uninformed, but fundamentally correct of course by definition because it's a democracy, favour.

But no one should imagine that a change of ruling party would mean an immediate return to the civilised values we never actually had to tell the truth. Over-regulation, political correctness, mind-bogglingly hypocritical and misleading discourse on world politics, and all the other modern tendencies we complain about are here to stay. They aren't in our interests, but they are what we have chosen, or let ourselves in for. Business as usual in fact.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - skorpio
Before driving off, in addition to checking for puddles beneath the car (brake fluid), check your wheel nuts haven't been loosened. If need be, pull off any wheel trims to check.
Car Vandalised-suspect known-Urgent Advice please. - Pugugly
Thread locked - latest postings have wandered too far off topic (you can't see them all 'cos they've been hidden) and is wandering in dangerous directions for the OP. He's had the advice he wanted so its locked