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In general chipping or applying a remap or tuning box will invalidate the engine warrantee and possible the whole warrantee. Once outside the warrantee period then the owner has more options. Some aftermarket suppliers have their own version of warrantee to include the engine but the strings attached usually means you have to prove their device was responsible for the engine component failure and that's not easy to do.
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Thanks very much Mike - just as I thought. Obviously a better bet for a car out of warranty.
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"What are peoples reasons for not using these tuning units to provide every day cost savings on fuel ?"
As well as warranty and drivetrain issues the other concern is insurance - as soon as you mention a modification increasing bhp by 25% many insurers have palpitations. There are specialists who don't find it a problem though.
I noticed Quentin Willson didn't mention anything about insurance implications when fitting a tuning box on his programme about saving fuel which was on last night.
Edited by daveyjp on 01/07/2008 at 09:44
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Perhaps Quentin is losing his touch a little, he use to be hot on such things at one time. You're right about the insurance issue. It's advisible for an interested party to obtain an insurance quote before making any decision regarding a remap, chip or tuning unit. Failure to have insurance that covers the modification is the same as driving without insurance and that in itself is a serious offence, not to mention the individual concerned then becomes personally liable for any damages and that can cost an awful lot especially if injuries or deaths occur.
The additional insurance premium will depend on the increase in bhp, if a person can't afford the insurance then they can't afford to purchase the device.
It's well known that some people have these devices, remaps, chip fitted etc. and are driving around cus they are too tight to pay up the extra insurance premium, but if/when they get caught out they'll wish they hadn't risked it.
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It's well known that some people have these devices remaps chip fitted etc. and are driving around cus they are too tight to pay up the extra insurance premium but if/when they get caught out they'll wish they hadn't risked it.
Not that I advocate such things but how do the insurance company tell? is it common practice to plug the ECU into a computer after an incident/accident to see whether a remap has taken place?
Tuning boxes are by nature more obvious to spot but I'm not sure how they could tell a remap?
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If a car is badly damaged an individual might be unable to restore the original ECU programming and in such cases a simply ECU check reveals all. For a remap the same applies and some remaps can be only be undone by the provider of the remap. In addition a remap leaves a shadow in the memory that can traced/read in a similar way that an undelete program can restore a deleted file on a computer hard drive even if the file has been overwritten.
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Spot on MikeTorque. QW has sold out. Probably not got over being booted off TopGer.
On the same show he says save money on fuel by getting your car chipped (for say £300), forgetting to say insurance goes up and then claiming it's a saving. Then pours veg oil into a common rail injection diesel Astra.
We all should sue.
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Car ecu's use EPROM memory chips. There is no shadow left as the chip is wiped before the new map is loaded. Sorry to disagree with you Mike.
A copy of the original map is saved to disc first so it can be restored at a later date if required.
The map can be checked by the main dealers diagnostic equipment (such as VAGCOM) but I cannot imagine any insurance company going to that trouble unless they had good reason to believe it was modified.
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If the EPROM erasing method doesn't apply the specified programming voltage for the specified time then old data can be left insitu which then becomes detectable when a comparison is done.
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If there's a big enough claim, the insurance company will go to considerable trouble to make sure that all the terms of the policy have been complied with. Something to think about when 'chipping' without telling them, or insuring the 17 year old's car in a parent's name.
The remappers say the change is undetectable - presumably the software version number remains the same so it wouldn't be detected by a simple read - but even if that is true, there are other sources of evidence - the friends and colleagues you told, the records of the company who supplied the remap, et cetera. And you can't easily remove a tuning box when you're confined to hospital.
From a technical perspective, the remap has to be better than the tuning box. AFAIK the boxes take the ECU output and modify it, so it follows that they can't advance an injection pulse for example. The remap can make things happen earlier than they would otherwise, and gives the tuner more options. It's also excatly what the manufacturers do to achieve the different power outputs from essentially the same engine.
Edited by Manatee on 02/07/2008 at 01:29
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So have you got one of these devices fitted yet MikeTorque?
I didnt see the Quentin Willson programme the other night; what were his findings on chipping the car, did he get an improvement in fuel economy?
Re: insurance. When I first got my tuning box my premium went up about £20; (shopping around further, I could have got insured for about £70 less for unmodified, but there was no going back).
This year I got a quote from another insurer and saved £90 for a modified policy. One online quote from one of the big names was £135 more expensive for my car unmodified, than I paid for modified!
Best to go with one of the specialist companies, Greenlight or Adrian Flux.
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So have you got one of these devices fitted yet MikeTorque?
No, however, I have been considering the pros and cons.
Edited by MikeTorque on 02/07/2008 at 13:11
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Dear all,
I have had an interesting read on this subject, some very good points made and some not so.
It really bugs me that the products as 'tuning boxes' classes them all in the same category when there are different manufacturers out there that work with different technology (I actually work for one but not mentioning no names!).
Generally there are three different types of tuning boxes:
1. plugs into the cold sensor and sends a signal back to the ECU fudging the signal to an input of the ECU the data taken by the ECU thinks the car is running in cold state and therefor adjusts the fueling to run like a choke system. These are found on ebay and can vary in price from a pound for a resistor with photcopied instructions to ones that are housed and probably can cost up to £75. Extremely cheap technology, no idea about longevity of ur engine though.
2. Common rail fuel pressure boxes, so many out there basically if it plugs in the common rail fuel pressure sensor its changing the common rail fuel pressure nothing else. These can vary from £100.00 up to a staggering £1500. This tecnology no matter what the manufacturer so called states, fudges a signal to an input of the ECU. Yes the boxes are clever and can vary it at different RPM's. The common rail has 3 wires, positive, negative and a reference signal between 0.5v up to 4.5v. By fudging the signal the ECU recorded data from the signal is changed and therefore the ECU increases the injection pump to work harder. When the injector opens the higher the pressure (and yes it is alot higher) the fuel is forced in increasing fueling given higher bhp and torque.
I deal with many diesel specialists some like this because its cheaper some dont because they believe it causes long term longevity problems.
3. Pulse width modulation. These boxes are generally more expensive because they take more to develop and generally work in a safe manner, as the system is designed to operate. these boxes are the only boxes on the market to work from outputs of the ECU's. they record the data from the ECU modify this data and then sends it back the the injector. What you will find is this is the same technique as the manufacture tends to use when changing the power of there engines. The gains are kept within the manufacturer tolerance level so this type of technology doesnt change service interevals or have any long term effect on your engine. The duraction of the injector is opened for example 5% longer which increases the fuel give more power and torque.
Remaps or Flash tuning.
Again a sore subject in my eyes because of the so called myth behind these.
There are reputable companies that do a good job and I'm sure there are several that dont.
Why is everyone told about a remap can do this that and everything else when actually some remaps are like the cheap tuning boxes. When the ECU is flashed how does the customer know what data has been changed (apart from told by the tuner). I know of companies that simple change the value of the common rail fuel pressure, change the boost pressure, duraation of injector or do a combination of things. I dont know of a tuner in the UK that has developed the actual maps, they read the data from your ECU send it off via email and get a map back (which they buy from a tuner) input it in your car and away you go!
Some being clever copy the files and then they have a generic map that can be used on many cars and they have only paid for it once (100% profit).
So what is actually better???? Good question, cheap is never the best the old term you get what you pay for is usually a good assumption. It all depends on your budget, type of car and your future plans (im not talking about marriage) for your beloved car.
All the above just being my humble opinion. please draw your own conclusions. Like I said before I'm only having my input I'm not here to promote or sell anything.
P.s not too much abuse please!!!!
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increases the injection pump to work harder. When the injector opens the higher the pressure (and yes it is alot higher) the fuel is forced in increasing fueling given higher bhp and torque.
Snipquote!
Hello: I liked your writeup on various tuning boxes. It worries me that tuning modules turn up the pressure on the injector pumps. The theory is as long as the ECU limits the pressure it will be fine. Who makes a "Pulse Width Modulation Box" for the Common Rail?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 01/10/2008 at 14:41
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Warranty?
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Warranty?
Out of warranty now, the threads over 5 years old!
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