I entered my own car into an auction this week for the very first time (a well known one I'd better not name but suffice to say its NOT BCA!) The first time it made a pretty good price although just short of the reserve, the second time it made £1500 less and the auction called to say that (I quote and I've recorded it as I record all phone calls since a bad experience with a bank a few years ago!) "The first entry was an auctioneer's bid to generate interest!!" I was quite alarmed by this as I thought the practise of auctioneers bouncing bids off the lightbulbs was something that disappeared a long time ago!
I can't say I was too chuffed as I took 2 days off work to get the car into the auction and collect it whereas if I knew the first bid was fake and the car had no hope of making anywhere near its reserve I would have driven it home after the first auction!
Is this practise still commonplace? I know one thing's for sure, I'd rather keep the car for ever than put it in that auction again, the car has also had its mirror damaged at the auction and as expected, I have no recourse! I shudder to think what happens if a driver damaged the car seriously at auction, I wouldn't be surprised if I'd have to foot the bill! Is it just me or do some auctions seem to have it totally their own way!
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Not at all surprised- I put a car through auction a few years ago. Delivered car myself with V5 and complete service history. Managed to attend myself to see the car go through sold with no docs and no history ! Yes they lost my documents and then claimed they must have got lost in the post.. ebay next time if I need to auction a car.
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Yes you are absolutely right, I wonder if in the very long term eBay will take over from conventional auctions. It's amazing how much money they make, I wouldn't mind 7.5% of 12 grand from a renting a bit of waste land and driving a car through a hall for 2 mins!
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Where do you get 7.5% from?
I know what the traders that put the vast majority of cars through auctions pay and its a lot lot less than that.
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It is EXACTLY the same at BCA or Manheim. This is how auctions work - on some days about half the cars which come through never get a bid.
I had a car in a major BCA auction (not general fleet but specialist) which, sadly, didn't get a real bid but to give you an example the auctioneer picked a random person and just said to them "you're close and we'll give them a call". Of course there was no bid. Been like this for years and has never changed.
Also, if they spot you as an "unknown" face expect to be bid up against by equally non-existant bidders. There is a reason for it - if the price is miles away from the reserve without a bit of "help" the exercise may be pointless. Reputable auctions shouldn't bid up near to or over the reserve.
It is how it works -and to think people complain about ebay shill bidders! Nothing compared to what goes on in the real world.
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hatman, just confirm the insurance issue you are correct that it is usually down to you to have covered the car against damage.
Few people also realise that at the fall of the hammer the responsibility passes to the buyer immediately. If you buy a car and a tree falls on it or somebody drives into it before you pay/collect it then it is down to you.
I will also re-iterate that BCA is no different in any respect of off the wall bids or care over storage. You want to see how some delivery drivers treat cars to......
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Wow! I'm glad I posted that message today now! I know I must sound naieve but I honestly didn't think bouncing bids off the wall was common practise! It certainly makes me think differently about auctions now although I still think that there are some bargains to be had at auction if you know your stuff!
I expect the traders get a lot lower commission but I think most of the major ones charge about 7.5% to private individuals.
It is quite a scary thought that if something happens to a car in the auction there's absolutely no recourse against the auction. I've also seen delivery drivers rev cars to within an inch of their life!
I guess the message is if you are a private individual selling your car I originally thought that the worst part of auctions is the low price you achieve whereas in actual fact potential damage to the car and getting messed about with fake bids is another issue. I genuinely didn't think the larger auctions like BCA and Manheim did fake bidding - I bet these posts get removed for mentioning BCA and Manheim by the way!! I can understand people's reluctance to pay more if the car is knocked down provisionally too - it's a joke to be bidding against someone who doesn't exist and then to have pay even more after the hammer falls!
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Auctions are only really "auctions" when you've got two people actually bidding. In other cases they are a rather bizarre form of open negotiation with a cat and mouse game of what the lowest price the auctioneer will submit is or whether anyone is remotely interested in the car.
If you're after a bargain then sometimes you can get a situation where you get a bid in early the auctioneer submits it. They'll not usually bounce against someone they know once they have got their bid in. Not so sure what might happen if you're waving your Parkers around...
Of course, if a car never gets close to the reserve then the car will eventually be withdrawn or the reserve dropped.
BCA most certainly do bounce bids as much as any one else and not just in the cheapie px auctions. It is how the system "works" and it will probably never change.
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Having used BCA for over 20 years, under different guises, I can confirm that fake bidding still goes on by the auctioneers. An auction should be an auction where the highest genuine bid wins. As for damage, most of the bumper scuffs and scatches to even newish cars, seem to appear at the site when being driven by the staff to and from the halls. I once witnessed a car back into another while being parked after the auction. The driver then parked the car in another part of the pound. So someone who bought a pristine car at the drop of the hammer, picked it up with a smashed light cluster.
They also sting you for a buyers and sellers fee. Quite right, give E-Bay a go.
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I've only bought at auction a few times (and been pleased with the purchases). I have a few rules that I stick to. I never open the auction, I never bid until I've physically seen somebody bid and then look for the traders. (Easy to recognise when you've been a few times, if nothing else it's the same faces). They're usually like flys around poo on the straight cars. If nobody bids on a car, I don't get excited at the thought of a cheapie...I wonder why and leave it alone. They might know something I don't.
I'm probably talking out of my proverbial, but I haven't been stung yet. (Never actually spotted a 'fake' bid, even though I've sat and watched closely. Aware it goes on though.
Edited by midlifecrisis on 01/04/2008 at 22:41
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Coincidenatally I've been looking at Sure Sell myself - largely (in fact solely) due to HJs plugging of it - but rather put off by the cost. 7.5% of sale price plus £42 sale fee plus £9 service charge - in total around 8.5% of what I would hope to get for my car (~£5k). What's worse is they even charge £45 if it doesn't sell (though they do forgo the £9 service charge in this case), so you get charged at least £87 even if they don't (Sure) sell your car.
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"look for the traders. (Easy to recognise when you've been a few times)"
Yeah, its the triby and white tee that gives them away!
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No, that's a journalist...
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I maybe wrong but I seem to remember reading about Sure Sell and that instead of a % the commission is a fixed fee of about £400. Which by auction standards is cheap!! As you say, HJ has been plugging Sure Sell and I'm surprised these posts haven't been removed for suggesting that auctions such as BCA and Manheim might indulge in bouncing bids off the light bulbs!
My personal experience (okay, I appreciate it's only a one off experience!) is to avoid auctions for selling cars - not so much because you get so little for the car after their massive commission but because of their general attitude and frankly the fact they have it all their own way - if one of their drivers scuffs a car you have no comeback at all. A lawyer friend I spoke to this morning say they have "a duty of care" when the car is in their possession on their site but the law always strikes me as totally pointless in this situation as the usual cost of seeking legal advice for half an hour would be enough to buy about 3 replacement BMW door mirrors!
I am a bit surprised more large companies haven't gone into the car auction sector. On paper at least, it does seem easy money for relatively little risk. I appreciate the infrastructure of arranging to auction several 100 cars in a day must take a lot of staff and a lot of expense but frankly the auctions must make a small fortune! I seem to remember in the days of BCA being known as ADT, ADT was one of the most profitable firms in the UK - I think it was also involved in security/alarms. I also remember reading BCA Blackbushe took £5 million in sales one day, even at 2% commission that's a fortune!!
I'm not moaning but I think that the auction companies can behave pretty much how they like to the consumer as they have monopoly as there are so few around. If you want to buy or sell at auction there are very few options, it's not as though you can go to a rival big auction in the next town as there simply won't be one there.
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At least when you advertise the car it is stored at your home and you are in control of it.
On a completely different auction moan, last year I took a day off work and was the highest bidder on a car at £8200, this was 10.45am. The auction couldn't contact the seller until 4.45pm and then said he wouldn't budge from £10k!! Spending 10.45 - 4.45 at auction on your own isn't a lot of fun and I wish that they told me within say 2 hours as I could have gone back to work in the afternoon! Delays regarding provisionals are yet another reason I prefer eBay. Don't get me wrong, there are bargains to be had at auction and I'm sure some people do very well but it can get a bit tiresome if you don't get that crucial element of good luck on the day!
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Regarding fees totalling 8.5% you also have to remember that VAT takes the total to nearer 10%!! I know dealers dont pay as much commission but I'm always surprised that the main dealers put all their older cars into auction. I bet if they set up a smaller dealership or maybe stock a few older cars in the corner of their forecourt they'd get a lot more for them than they do at auction!
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I know dealers dont pay as much commission but I'm always surprised that the main dealers put all their older cars into auction. I bet if they set up a smaller dealership or maybe stock a few older cars in the corner of their forecourt they'd get a lot more for them than they do at auction!
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BIG dealers push cars to Auction to get rid of "cars beneath their standing"
and to sell to other dealers directly from the "local branch" brings in the problems of "bribery & corruption". The local branch manager flogs them to "his mate" at a special price and gets a £200 back hander in return.
We would not like to think BIG Car Dealers were into dishonest trading + bribery & corruption now would we?
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"....and I'm surprised these posts haven't been removed for suggesting that auctions such as BCA and Manheim might indulge in bouncing bids off the light bulbs!"
I am fairly certain that 'bouncing bids off the wall' is a legitimate technique (providing the bids are below the reserve).
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AdrianM is right ....Until the reserve is met 'off the wall' bids are acceptable under the 'code' for auctions. This applies to all, not just car, auctions. It is certainly common practice at property auctions.
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This is a real eye opener as I always assumed that taking fictional bids was malpractise and I seem to remember a piece on Top Gear in the early 90s saying that bouncing bids off the light bulbs has become a thing of the past! That said though, an awful lot of cars don't make their reserve by a long way and sell provisionally so it's not as though the auctioneer always trots up the bid until it is say £100 below the reserve. It does make a bit of a farce of the auction to a certain extent though if you are bidding against yourself. Rather than it being an auction it more of a case of offering cars and trying to get an offer close to the reserve rather than carrying out an auction to achieve it.
At the end of the day though, as long as you get the car you are after a lot cheaper than retail buying at auction is still a viable option. It's probably just me being me but the idea of bidding against someone who doesn't exist does seem a bit of a con to me though! As an early poster pointed out, if that was done on eBay as in shill bidding I am sure it would be considered against eBay's guidelines.
I'm surprised this topic of auctions hasn't been discussed on here before or maybe it has? Unfortunately I dont usually get much time to browse online.
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If you read BCA's terms and conditions carefully you'll see that it is permitted to bid on your own vehicle upto the reserve.
This is particularly common at on line auctions. Say a large specialist sale on behalf of a big car manufacturer - somebody from head office logs in as a buyer and pushes the odd car up towards the reserve. Happens all the time.
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That makes a lot of sense! I've only gone to a manufacturer sale once but with one exception everything made a fortune! Everytime I outbid the people in the hall I was always outbid by the computer! I vowed at the time never to attend a manufacturer or online bidding sale again!
It's interesting to read you can bid on your own car up to the reserve, as I say it's probably me being me but it does sound a bit of a con to me especially when you consider the fuss people kick up on eBay over shill bidding on something worth a fiver! Well people have even kicked up about me unintentionally overcharging by 80p in postage on eBay!
Anyway this is a really interesting message forum and there are clearly some very clued up members on here ;-)
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Re Hatman's comment further up about dealers having a few oldies on a corner of the forecourt, our local Toyota dealer has 3 separate "courts". One for new vehicles, one for not-very-old used, and one for those of "lesser value" shall we say. In view of the ground rents charged around here, the lesser value site must do fairly well to pay its way.
As far as auction houses go, everything mentioned above happens here too, although there is only one big auction house specialising in vehicles. Occasionally, they hold a "no reserve" auction, so there are no off-the-wall bids. One buyer made it on to the news having bought a driveable [ just ] Triumph 2000 for the equivalent of ten pounds. How's that for bangernomics !!
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Mystified.
1] The car's insured, thus "so what" about damage.
2] Do people really bid just to out-bid a fake bidder, or to pay what they have worked out to be a reasonable price? 200 fake bids isn't going to shift my idea of value.
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Welcome to my world !!
You privates in the auctions make me laugh. you think us traders make £3000 a car for doing nothing.
BTW we dont wear trilbys anymore.
The way to spot the dealers are the ones with the worried looks on their faces which most would have if they spent a lot of time in these places
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Normal car insurance usually specifically excludes motor trade coverage. A car stored at an auction house is undoubtably a place of motor trade.
Besides, are you going to insure every car in the place in case you buy it?
In reality, cars do not get broken that often in a major way - but read the terms. At the fall of the hammer if you purchase a car it is your problem if they park it up by touch parking or a tree falls on it. Not worth keeping awake over but best to be aware.
Motor traders may (or may not) have specific insurance to cover cars stored at auction whether a vendor or purchaser.
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