The Vauxhall dealer tried to blame it on non-standard spark plugs, and forgot to actually say what was on the printout, but the two codes that i remember coming out were ignition coil, and ecu fault
Yep, i meant the ignition coil pack (DIS). Didn't have a compression test done, but I think that will be next.........
I'm off to give my coilpack plug a wiggle, will let u know the outcome!
Many thanks for your help & info - any other info please forward it my direction lol!
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No joy - done a wiggle test on the coil pack multiplug.
Any other ideas please?
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I seem to remember an ECU update for misfiring coilpacks if they were persistant there was a down load fix. Is the EGR valve ok as that makes them drive awfull at low speed.
Doc
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It's had a software update done at Vauxhall.
Could a blocked fuel filter contribute towards this fault? Just driven home tonight, car was pasrked at slight angle, and it started almost perfectly, then soon dropped back onto 3 cylinders?
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Probably not related, but a mechanic friend was working on a Vauxhall (cav or astra, I'm not sure) a few years ago, on a misfire problem.
To cut a long story, one of the branches on the inlet manifold had a little vacuum pipe running to the heater recirc control valve, and this pipe had rubbed through thus allowing a small amount of air to be sucked by that particular cylinder...
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>>It's had a software update done at Vauxhall.
??? I'm struggling to see how a sudden misfire fault can be a SW problem, sounds like desperation on their part, I think I'd try another garage :-/
From personal experience of my own ECOTECs and remote diagnosis of others then misfire from startup has generally been crank sensor related, misfire occuring when running has generally been HT related. However, on a previous Omega of mine there was a period when it would not start / run properly when parked on a slope, this turned out to be a loose crank sensor, when on a slope it was moving the sensor just far enough away from the crank to cause problems.
So, I'd check the crank sensor is fully tightened, if that's OK then, as you've already changed the DIS, the only other thing I can thinkof is the actual coil frame / HT leads ( I can't remebr which one the X18XE has). Mind you I dare say that's an expensive fix just on my say so, mightbe worth trying a different garage first.
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I tend to agree that another Vauxhall dealer maybe best bet. When I had the original TECH2 test done, the receptionist stated that my misfire was due to having Bosch spark plugs in, when they should be GM standard type. When I suggested that Bosch probably make the spark plugs for GM, their retort was "well he's a trained technician, he should know"...........I couldn't keep a straight face at this point!
I'm sort of thinking it could be fuel related, looking through the service bills etc, I can't see any record of a fuel filter being changed out on it. So I'm kind of thinking start cheap, work towards the expensive end of things. Will see what happens over the weekend.
I'll certainly check the crank sensor, I'm assuming they'll be available on the OE parts market? O2 sensors are, got a price of £62 each for those.
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I'm sort of thinking it could be fuel related looking through the service bills etc I can't see any record of a fuel filter being changed out on it.
aahhh well, my last 3 ECOTECs have run to 166K, 188K and 120K and I don't think any of them ever had a fuel filter change - it wouldn't make my top 10 things to change list.
I'll certainly check the crank sensor I'm assuming they'll be available on the OE parts market? O2 sensors are got a price of £62 each for those.
Yes you can get crank sensors from a variety of sources, autovaux for starters. Be aware there are a few different types for these engines, VX prices are from 40 quid to 110 quid depending on type, from memory.
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A friends diagnostic computer showed up as P0351 Ignition Coil Input High 1.
Puzzled!
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hi there.
i have exactly the same problem with my 1.8 sri vectra x reg, 122k on the clock,
engine model x18xe1
same fault code PO351 ignition coil input high 1. i.e a misfire on cylinder 1.
mine too started as just an intermittent fault which would disappear if i restarted the engine. and then progressed to a constant failure. mine still goes through the entire rev range but very slowly and noisily.
i have had many things suggested to me as well. the most convincing yet is a failure of the ecu, which is common on 1.8 vectras. i went to many specialists and vauxhall dealers and many suggest the same thing.
i am having mine tested by vauxhall on wednesday to see if they can find perhaps a wiring fault or loose connection. i have also been able to agitate my ecu by wiggling it around to replicate the problem.
if that fails their is a company online ecutesting.com who offer tests to check if an ecu is faulty and have the ability to repair/refurb your own ecu. if im unlucky at vauxhall i will be trying them, if only for a test.
i will keep you posted tho, let me know if you get any developments.
regards
Edited by andy23 on 29/10/2007 at 20:54
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Hi andy23
Thanks for that info - certainly tallies up with my latest diagnosis from a different garage, suggested ECU had gone/suspect wiring loom.
I think I came across ecutesting.com on ebay last night, before I logged on here. They seem to charge a reasonable price for a refurb - much better than brand new from Vauxhall lol!
I'll keep you posted on how this goes on
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muj
That ECU test might not be a bad idea. The other end of the wire from the coilpack plug ends in one of the ECU's multiplugs.
All Vauxhall engine-mounted ECUs [stupid idea!] suffer from vibration fatigue in their connector pin solder joints, so that might fit the symptom.
Hopefully they can repair yours [if it's not the gel-filled kind] and then there won't be any security recoding to worry about.
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ECU appears to be blown. Currently undergoing repairs.
What would be needed if I could obtain an ECU from salvage? Just the ECU or would I need anything else?
Cheers
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muj
You'd be into coding nightmares; if you can get yours repaired, [it's not the ceramic/gel one then?] stick with that.
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Hi screwloose
I thought so, my dad suggested it but I kinda thought there would be trouble, probably need the immobiliser unit & keys so it could turn into an even worse job lol! In ye olde Carlton days when my dad had trouble in the ECU department, the local scrapper provided one for £25 and off it went again.
Mine is currently with ecutesting.com - they seem confident of repairing it. Hopefully back either tomorrow or Monday, so will wait and see what happens.
For a laugh - Vauxhall quoted £709 + VAT for a new replacement, and coding & fitting on top of that. Say £709 quickly it doesn't sound as bad lol!
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muj
Hopefully a repair is all that's needed. At least it isn't the latest throwaway type. I've diagnosed around twenty of those in the last three months alone.
That £700-odd [+£250 fit, code and VAT] has been fairly routine for a Vaux ECU for over ten years - and they have sold many, many, thousands. [Nice little earner on a part that costs them about £5.]
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Hi there, I am interested in this issue as I have a Vectra with exactly the same spec, year, and even mileage and last Sat (10th) it started exactly the same symptoms whilst driving fast on the M25. The only difference with mine is that it's dual fuel, interestingly it does the misfire both on petrol & LPG; when switching between fuels sometimes the misfire continues and sometimes it stops as the different fuel kicks in. It is still intermittent but only runs on three pots probably about 50% of the time.
My initial thoughts were (thinking back to the good old days, even my motorcycle era) that a plug was failing to fire under pressure as the problem seems worse when you put your foot down to accelerate a bit and more fuel has to be burnt. Needless to say, changing them had no effect whatsoever but I did notice that the coilpack has cracks in its potting which, from my tv repairing days, was always a good clue to internal shorting taking place between windings or high voltage terminals as tracking could take place.
To date I have not had the time to get seriously involved as it still runs after a fashion and I am up to my ears in work but it will have to be tackled.
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kpav1
Just confirm your engine code? Don't leave it if it's on 3 cylinders - cat failures are a common result of coilpack failure - usually about three weeks later for some reason...?
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Thanks for reply, Screwloose. What do you mean by that statement? Do you mean the Tec2 diagnostic error code or something else? Regards kpav1
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kpav1
Coilpack failure is the most likely - does it leave codes?
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Hi, haven't had a diagnostic tester put on it yet. Today the management light was not on in the dashboard(running on petrol) so I switched to LPG. Immediately the light came on and it ran rough. Switching back to petrol, engine goes smooth but light stays on again. On tickover, switching between fuels it always goes rough when LPG hits the cylinders as if one injector is not working. I might persue this further before going to my local dealer. Thanks for your interest and comments, this seems a variation in symptoms from when problem first appeared!!! Regards.
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had problem with 1.8 vectra turned out to be wiring to the air flow meter .the best auto sparky in town found the fault but not before the air flow meter had fried,
replacement fitted car going well
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I have a 2001 Dual Fuel Vectra 1.8 LS with exactly the same symptoms as kpav1. Tried changing plugs, and fitted a new coil pack, no change. Also tried new mass airflow meter, no change. Car is currently with AFS autogas specialist, and so far no diagnosis found.
kpav1 - have you cured the problem yet? If so, what was it? Could help me and others save a load of trouble and money?
I will report back when mine gets cured.
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hawksfold
Was yours on three cylinders too? Gas and petrol? Did you have any codes? Was a compression test done?
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(Vectra 1.8 LS dual fuel LPG/petrol, 2001 facelift model)
Mine now appears to be firing on 3 cylinders when on LPG, which starts immediately (or nearly immediately)when the system switches to LPG. When misfiring on LPG, when you switch to petrol without restarting, the misfire remains. However, when restarted on petrol it runs full power and smooth.
About 6 months ago I had occasional problems with management warning light coming on, and LPG refusing to engage. Tests at that time revealed no code, no faults. (That problem was intermittent, and continues. But there was no misfire at that time, at least not anything detectable.)
I have tried new plugs, new coil pack, new air-mass meter. Also tried draining gunk from LPG vaporiser (no gunk found). Also tried reducing plug gaps to 0.8mm. No change.
AFS are looking at it now. I dont think they have found any useful codes. Not sure if they have done compression test, but as it goes 100% OK on petrol, I doubt if compression is the issue.
Does anyone know if a misfire when on LPG would cause the engine management to switch off the ignition or the fuel to one cylinder? That seems to me to be the only rational explanation for the misfire continuoing when I switch to petrol, but disappearing after a restart.
Any thoughts or ideas gratefully received.
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hawksfold
The biggest problem that I have with these is an almost complete lack of data on how they are configured.
Assuming - always risky - that this is a multi-point LPG set-up; then the emulator will cut the injectors when gas is selected. The standard ECU will continue to modify the fuelling, but the width of it's injector pulses are now being used to adjust the gas inflow.
On switchback; the petrol injectors should come back on - unless there's a problem with the switching.... [All this is guesswork.]
Edited by Screwloose on 05/01/2008 at 12:32
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(Vectra 1.8 LS dual fuel). The LPG specialist tells me its a duff gas injector - have to have the whole set replaced (matched set) at £360 +VAT + labour etc etc. - ouch. They are also reprogramming the LPG control unit just in case. Hope this is going to work - the cost has blown away a whole year's savings from using LPG. I'll report back further when the job is done......
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Hello there. I have read your lpg problem you had. I have the same problem with my motor. Yeah, vauxhall only sell them i sets of 4. (money grabbers!)
Do you still have the old Injectors and would you be willing to sell one to me?
Weardly enough its cylinder 3 thats gone down on my one aswell!
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vauxhall only sell them i sets of 4. (money grabbers!)
Have you tried sourcing them from someone else - eg autovaux?
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I have exactly the same symptoms as Hawksfold above.
I've taken into our local Vauxhall Masterfit twice. On the first go they changed the spark plugs, on the second go the did nothing as they "couldn't find anything wrong with it" (this is despite the fact that the engine management light is on and the diagnostic is reporting a cylinder misfire).
I'm wondering whether I should give up on the Vauxhall Masterfit and go for an LPG specialist (I live in Somerset - can anyone recommend one?).
I can't afford to have any more days off work for the Vauxhall guys to find nothing.
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Netarious
What was the exact fault-code? Does it only miss on gas?
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Hi Hawksfold, no I haven't cured the fault yet---just been driving on petrol!! However, I have been doing some freelance work for two Vauxhall garages (not car related!) and they have both given it a glance over and both have said No 2 injector is not passing gas, so that looks like the route to go down (at great expense) it would seem. They both said they get gummed up and stick and replacement always cures the fault. Regards, kpav1
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Hi kpav1,
I just got mine back from the autogas specialist today. 4 new injectors, plus a new filter, and some other work. Apparently injectors are sold as matched sets, at about £380 inc VAT, which was the majority of the total cost....
I'm told only one of mine (no 3) was actually faulty. I've actually got all the old ones back from the garage in case they are of some use in the future, though no idea which is from no 3 cylinder. I guess its fair enough to change all 4, as if one has failed, others may be close (and I guess if not perfectly matched, the cylinders might not be in perfect balance). But a bit frustrating to fork out so much on an old high mileage car. Total bill wipes out over 12000 miles of savings from running on LPG.
I'm presuming mine is now fixed, seems OK so far anyway, after 20 miles. I'll report back again if the fault recurs.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
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Hi Hawksfold,
Sounds like you've got a result so I hope it stays good for you! Will post results when I finally get round to doing something positive.
Regarding the apparent 3 cylinder running after changing back to petrol, I have discovered that if you flick the switch back to petrol with your foot off the throttle long enough for the management to cut the fuel supply as it does on "overrun" anyway, then the engine resumes running on 4cyls as soon as you apply some throttle. Regards, kpav1
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Hi Kpav,
In retrospect, I'm not sure it was the right economic decision to do the repair. Cost me about £700 all in, on a car thats worth maybe £1500 or so. Maybe I should have sold it to someone who lives in London. It would be eligible for the zero Congestion Charge, even though the LPG system was not working properly. Anyway, its done now and although there are some other faults with the LPG system causing it to lock out from time to time, when its going its now misfire-free. So I'll keep it a year or so and try to recoup my losses!
rgds
Hawksfold
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>>>In retrospect, I'm not sure it was the right economic decision to do the repair. Cost me about £700 all in, on a car thats worth maybe £1500 or so.
Look at it this way, you could;ve swapped the car for something else that turned out to be a complete pile of pfd, so better the devil you know in my opinion.
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Yea, you are right. It has no other significant defects (other than the usual early Vectra soggy handling!), and there is always a cost and risk associated with changing cars. Providing it goes another year with no major problems, the repair cost will have been worth spending. And I have 3 spare injectors which worked fine, so they might come in useful for some car, you never know...
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Hi Guys,
i have a same problem with my vectra, no 2 cylinder misfiring with gas injecter being at fault.
If some one could tell me where can i get a set from, at the moment jct600 are quoting around £400 +vat.
i am looking for gas engineer who could do the job for me.
any help would be appreciated.
cheers.
jo
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Hi Jo and others - very interested to read your exchanges as i have been
struggling with a similarly elusive fault for a couple of months now.
Vectra 1.8 2001 (51) Z18XE 20V02814 dual fuel
To begin with it was misfiring on LPG only - symptoms v. similar to those already described in this thread. Vauxhall wanted 800 pounds to fit 4 new LPG injectors (they really are only available to buy in sets of 4 - i spent some time checking this out). However I decided it was worth the risk and bought a second hand set from ebay for 155 pounds, traced the culprit cylinder by squeezing each gas feed pipe in turn to see which made no difference, and replaced no. 2 LPG injector - fixed - but only for a few weeks. I have spare injectors but, sorry, I need to hang on to these.
I now have just the same misfire probs but has developed (or new fault?) so that it affects petrol side as well. Squeeze test shows no difference.No LPG codes showing (you can read these with a pin and test lead to ground).No petrol codes showing apart from 'P3040 undocumented fault'(if memory serves).Tried new plugs. So down to Vauxhall dealer again who changed crankshaft sensor and then put it back as no better and now tell me it could be ECU. They cannot test these (918 pounds to replace) so I am also considering using ECUtesting or InjectionCorrection in Notts. - all I need to do is identify my ECU for them to quote. Haynes book tells me to look under wipers - just a big hole. ECUtesting's page tells me to look 'on side of engine block' - so get under car with torch - too many LPG bits stuck on, cannot find it if it is there. I then stumble across something which looks very like a Simtec 70/71 by the battery (will have to take it out to see no.s on back). The question is: is this the LPG ECU or petrol ECU? Does any kind person out there know? and where is the other one?
The one I've found has letters 'M' and 'K' cast in the corners of the unit, the one no. I can see on a barcode label on the top edge of the unit looks like a serial no.: M01K90DFRC1050.(The part no. Vauxhall have given me for the petrol ECU is 24443879).
good luck and many thanks
Brian
{reformatted so that the text uses all the text box and not just a small portion of it.}
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/04/2008 at 05:43
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Brian
Have a look on the inlet manifold, gearbox end, for a 4" sq, finned alloy block, with two, black, rectangular multi-wire plugs on it - that's the main ECU.
Was that code P0340 - or P0304?
Do a compression test; hot and cold. Check the terminals in the coilpack's plug haven't spread - tweak them if needed.
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thanks, Screwloose - found it under all the LPG injector wiring.
I am not sure of the fault code now, and I was reading over the mechanic's shoulder at the time , but i remember seeing the word 'undocumented'. Do you know what these numbers point to?
I have released and reconnected the petrol ECU, coil pack and air flow meter's plugs and tried the wiggle test without any improvement. Unfortunately, I don't have the equipment for a compression test.
Petrol ECU is GM 09 158 689 Siemens 5WK9 154. I reckon this makes it a Simtec 71, and my only option now is to get the thing off, look for water damage, and get it ready to send off for testing - if it stops snowing!
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You're a long way from needing the ECU testing. Basic checks come first.
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Hi
got your last message (Screwloose) too late -ecu comes back from InjectionCorrection tomorrow and, yes its passed 100%. I phoned Vauxhall dealer to ask what they proposed next and all they could come up with is to try fitting a 'genuine GM ECU' for which (testing only) they want another £55. For some reason they do not think a compression test appropriate. I spoke to someone helpful at ATP who told me there is a common fault on these units where the earth pin fails, throwing up a number of false faults. As this pin simply goes to earth through the ECU body this can be worked around. I am waiting to hear from InjectionCorrection to be reassured that there testing will have covered this posibility. Running out of ideas otherwise..
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Yes; there is a common earth fault. It's the pin earthing the MAF and inlet temp sensor; it throws up a particular pair of codes and there is a bodge to fix it - not your problem though.
You could try a genuine ECU - at a genuine £780 plus fitting, programming [they come blank] and coding. Me; I wouldn't.
Why don't they think a compression test is appropriate - lost their tester?
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who knows how they make their decisions? I've asked what their strategy is if new ECU makes no difference - answer 'consult with Vauxhall tech dept.' - they are stuck.
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Finding out the number of that code would be useful; just because his scanner couldn't explain it doesn't mean that it's obscure.
A lot of cheap Chinese scanners [the awful Launch X-431 being the worst] won't identify a P0304 code as "misfire cylinder 4" as they are only loaded with the reading part of the manufacturer's tool's software
[illegally hacked - of course....]
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cheers, Screwloose - its P0335
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...And it couldn't even ID that one - it's one of the commonest codes you see; crank sensor, circuit malfunction. [Didn't need to look that one up...]
Was that still there with the engine running? The Bosch ones used to throw that code if the engine wasn't running; but the Simtecs mean it.
The resistance of the sensor should be 1300-1900 Ohms. They are also known for throwing teeth off the reluctor ring on the crank. A scope will show that one.
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P0335 is the code that was showing when the car went to the dealership, and that's presumably why they tried a new crankshaft sensor. I have it booked in with a good local lad on Monday, but I just drove 50 miles back from work and the car behaved perfectly on petrol (wouldn't switch to gas). When it does misbehave there's loss of power and it takes an extra couple of seconds cranking to start. How do you think the time would be best used on Monday?
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You chap should use his own diagnostic system that he's been trained in and is comfortable with.
At the very least; the signal from the crank sensor needs scoping to check for anything that would flag that code - you'll note that it's not described as "faulty sensor;" it's "circuit malfunction."
Loss of crank sensor signal would give the symptoms described.
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thanks for that, Screwloose.
car ran (perversely) perfectly on petrol over the weekend, completing two 50 mile trips with no warning lights - its beginning to look like i have an LPG prob that is spilling over to the petrol side: I switched to gas - emissions light came on straight away with misfire, which persisted when i changes back to petrol. I canceled the local garage booking as he is not happy doing the gas side and had another look at the LPG codes. 32 and 54 were stored. I spoke to Graham at Millbrooks who thought there might be a problem with the simulator unit (yet another little black box). I have one ordered and will fit at the end of week probably...
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I hope he meant the emulator.....
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for obvious professional reasons Graham was reluctant to advise me about fitting the unit. Have you fitted one of these? is it OK to just disconnect neg at battery and make the swap? Is there Tech2 or other programming to do on the new unit or should I be able to just fit and go?
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Never got into LPG; most systems are so badly constructed you can't win.
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simulator/emulator fitted - no change to misfire. Work intervenes for 2 weeks now, then I will get back on to it.
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happy ending: car fixed by lpg fitters in Flintshire - new injector set (the resistences do need to match, but at 60% of Vauxhall's price) AND a new rpm filter/crankcase signal amplifier/ module 58X. This 1.8 vectra is now running really well and is for sale...Manchester could not have timed their congestion charge announcement better!
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My vectra, having had LPG misfire cured by expensive new injectors, now has an ongoing warning light and driveability problem. Some days won't switch to gas, and runs at VERY low power on petrol (10-15 horsepower is my guess). Several journeys have been aborted completely, as its unsafe to negotiate traffic in this state. Also having consistent ecu warning light which garage says is crank sensor circuit. The crank sensor was replaced (using a secondhand one), no change. Have also checked the wiring from crank sensor back to the ECU plug, good continuity. Crank sensor resistance is 1500 ohms, which is in correct range. Any ideas what to try next?? Should I try another crank sensor? Garage is offering a new ECU, but price of this including fitting exceeds value of car! And I'm not convinced it would cure it anyway............Help.
Hawksfold
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Still not happy and alot poorer.
I gave up with Vauxhall in the end as they didn't seem to have a clue and threatened to replace my engine. I took it to a local engineer that was recommended and he ended up replacing my cylinder head (as well as a bunch of other stuff) which cost me around £2200.
The car then ran fine for a few weeks then I started to smell gas in the car. I took it to a gas converter in Swindon and they diagnosed a split in the No.1 gas injector (I'm thinking this may have been caused by the previous work by a non-LPG specialist).
The Swindon gas guy is quoting £632 + VAT to replace the injectors (not including labour).
Having read this thread again that sounds a bit steep.
Since I got the car back today the car is also reporting the crank sensor error which wasn't happening this morning...
I'm starting to think all these mechanics are laughing at me!
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